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  1. #201
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    the forsaken are not one single hive mind. they are a bunch of different people. you have some crazy ones like stillwater and putress, some decent ones like the guy that decided to leave the ghosts in hillsbrad alone because they are similar to the forsaken and deserve to keep their land (I forgot his name and I don't have time to look it up, I gotta go out in a few moments).
    Silence of the Dwarves: "They fight for their land even after death - much like the Forsaken. I will report back to high command that Dun Garok is uninhabitable. Let them keep what they hold so dear."

  2. #202
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Sylvanas freed them and protected them. WTF did Calia do?
    But she is the heir of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, in life and death

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    anyway: it's likely that part of the forsaken would reject calia because of her being arthas' sister, while another part of them would accept calia because she's the heir to the throne and terenas' daughter. terenas is still venered by the forsaken. on top of the undercity there's a memorial to him:
    That I meant, the Forsaken will be divided into two groups: those loyal to Sylvanas and those faithful to Calia, as the orcs have been divided now because Garrosh.

    At the end Sylvanas will become an insurmountable danger and therefore the rest of the Horde along with the Alliance will destroy her. So Calia remain as the legitimate Queen of the Forsaken survivors.

  3. #203
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    But she is the heir of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, in life and death
    So was Arthas, that didn't stop them from turning on him. It's not like Calia did all that much before Lordaeron's fall to garner strong loyalty anyway. And since its fall, Calia has done nothing for the Forsaken during the past 8+ years. If she is still alive, the Forsaken have no reason to abandon Sylvanas who freed them and protected them during that time.

  4. #204
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So was Arthas, that didn't stop them from turning on him. It's not like Calia did all that much before Lordaeron's fall to garner strong loyalty anyway. And since its fall, Calia has done nothing for the Forsaken during the past 8+ years. If she is still alive, the Forsaken have no reason to abandon Sylvanas who freed them and protected them during that time.
    We are supposing that she is dead, concretely undead.

    Although she has not done anything for them (yet) she is the legitimate heir to the throne, I guess some Forsaken will remain loyal to the crown ...

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon2K View Post
    Why? Push the Forsaken out; re-establish the fortifications that were there of old, bring Quel'thalas back into the fold and Alliance banners could once again wave over all the lands from Silvermoon to the tip of Stranglethorn!

    Besides, all the lands of Eastern Kingdoms belonged to man, dwarf and elf (all right, all right, and gnome) before that whole business with the Dark Portal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I forgot to mention that the Forsaken have hell to pay for what they did to Southshore, Gilneas and Andorhal.
    By this Logic, everything belongs to the Trolls.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    We are supposing that she is dead, concretely undead.

    Although she has not done anything for them (yet) she is the legitimate heir to the throne, I guess some Forsaken will remain loyal to the crown ...
    After lifetime of slavery, I highly doubt it.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    I also think the alliance should push the forsaken out of Lordaeron. Why? A kingdom with hundreds/thousands of years of history beats a bunch of living dead any day. There's also the fact that the Alliance's inability to retake Lordaeron makes it look weak.

    The Alliance should Lordaeron back and push the Undead to EPL. The Forsaken could then take Stratholme or settle somewhere else. Northrend, perhaps?

    But whatever Blizzard decide to do with Lordaeron, it's not practical to change things now, so nothing is going to happen until WoW comes to an end.
    So basically, you're an Alliance fanboy with no real concept of how Militarily impossible that would be right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    We are supposing that she is dead, concretely undead.

    Although she has not done anything for them (yet) she is the legitimate heir to the throne, I guess some Forsaken will remain loyal to the crown ...
    Let us weigh them against each other yes?

    Sylvanas - Save them from the scourge, freed them and formed them into a nation and found a way for them to not die out as a people.

    Calia - she's the stupid daughter of the king, who might be a forsaken now I guess.

  8. #208
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    By this Logic, everything belongs to the Trolls.
    and rightfully it does

    every one knows there is no statute of limitations on ancestral homelands, and ancient history always takes precedent over recent history.

  9. #209
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
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    there is no reason to try to take it unless there is something beneath tirisfal that has a ginormous benefit to the alliance and it is a matter of "get it all costs or die trying" . Aside from that from a military perspective, throwing soldiers to the undead = more undead armies to fight back at them. it is like trying to fight fire by throwing paper at it.

  10. #210
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    there is no reason to try to take it unless there is something beneath tirisfal that has a ginormous benefit to the alliance and it is a matter of "get it all costs or die trying" . Aside from that from a military perspective, throwing soldiers to the undead = more undead armies to fight back at them. it is like trying to fight fire by throwing paper at it.
    that's easy to solve

    Robots > Zombies

    - - - Updated - - -

    but you right of course, there is not strategic advantage to even attempt to retake the whole of lordaeron, but they should push back Arathi, and maybe even try to retake South Shore and Gilneas.

  11. #211
    High Overlord Gren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azahel View Post
    why don't we just reclaim Alterac or Stromgarde?

    I for one agree with Sylvanas when she says that Lordaeron belongs to the forsaken.
    They are the people who lived there, who died there, they became something else.
    If anything the alliance could take that elf from the leadership and put someone else and try some sort of cooperation.
    But I don't see any reason why it'd be useful to the alliance now.
    I would actually like to see the Forsaken build up the old ruins, get some more use out of that place.

    As for the Alliance retaking, fat chance! I agree, they'd be much better off reclaiming Alterac or Stromgarde.
    Cthulhu 2024, why vote for a lesser evil

  12. #212
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Alliance encroaching on Lordaeron (sans Calia) is no different than if Alliance were to "retake" Quel'thalas. They are foreigners invading territory that doesn't belong to them.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-09-04 at 07:32 PM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    We are supposing that she is dead, concretely undead.

    Although she has not done anything for them (yet) she is the legitimate heir to the throne, I guess some Forsaken will remain loyal to the crown ...
    I don't think the forsaken would allow the living to be their leader.

    Well, I don't think they'd be loyal to the crown. They have a new queen. Someone showing up as the rightful heir doesn't account for anything as they are not under the kingdom of lordaeron anymore. They are forsaken now. And sylvanas is the queen of the forsaken.

  14. #214
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Calia - she's the stupid daughter of the king [and therefore legitimate heir to the throne], who might be a forsaken now [and therefore one of them on equal terms]
    fixed

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    there is no reason to try to take it unless there is something beneath tirisfal that has a ginormous benefit to the alliance and it is a matter of "get it all costs or die trying" . Aside from that from a military perspective, throwing soldiers to the undead = more undead armies to fight back at them. it is like trying to fight fire by throwing paper at it.
    Uhm the Tirisfal Grove (where the mystical Chamber of Krasus is located)

  15. #215
    Stood in the Fire Rilec's Avatar
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    First of all, everyone saying "Lordaeron belongs to X and Y has no claim!" is pretty childish and wrong. The Forsaken and humans are two powers who don't recognize each others' laws. Both sides have what they believe to be a legitimate claim to the land and to each side, they're right while their enemies are wrong. The Forsaken are largely comprised of the dead of Lordaeron, raised into servitude and later set free to try and make an existence out of whatever husks of their former selves they had become. They take up residence in the land they once had during life, zealously defending the only home they have against human invaders who would stop at nothing to take everything from them. Lordaeron is currently the only real place in the world that the Forsaken have.

    On the other side of the coin, you have the humans. Many of them were once citizens of Lordaeron in one way or another. Some are refugees who's family lines were born, lived and died on those lands. Some are old Stormwind refugees from the first war who's sister-nation Lordaeron took in and offered a home for many, many years. They struggle to reclaim the birthplace of the Alliance. Some fight to reclaim their homes from what they see as an abomination. Others fight to try and restore the homes of those who gave them refuge in the past. Both sides here obviously seem to have very legitimate reasons for trying to control Lordaeron, but all it really boils down to is a simple "I want it". There are no rightful hands for the land to be in. The Forsaken currently control Lordaeron, so it's theirs. If the Alliance were to take the city, the sides would change and they would be the "rightful rulers" while the Forsaken would be "invaders".

    Now the out of game reason is because Blizzard hasn't done anything to endear Stormwind to the players. It has and continues to exist as a generic backdrop for humans and the Alliance as a whole. Even now, Stormwind and the Humans are a cheap, bland and empty wrapper hastily put around the alliance and a lot of people know it. A lot of Alliance players are desperate for the nostalgia of Warcraft 2, the amazing symbolism (the stylized L is infinitely better than stormwind's baby's-first-kitty) and a rich story. That's likely why you see so many ranting and raving on the forums about reclaiming Lordaeron.

  16. #216
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Alliance encroaching on Lordaeron (sans Calia) is no different than if Alliance were to "retake" Quel'thalas. They are foreigners invading territory that doesn't belong to them.
    Sylvanas has given the Alliance enough reason to take Lordaeron for their own safety, never mind the refugees they are sheltering.

    EJL

  17. #217
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Sylvanas has given the Alliance enough reason to take Lordaeron for their own safety, never mind the refugees they are sheltering.
    Those refugees don't mean jack squat. There are High Elf refugees in the Alliance too. You don't see the Alliance invading Quel'thalas over it or anyone claiming that the Alliance has a right to Quel'thalas.

    The threat that Sylvanas poses is a real concern. But that doesn't change the fact that the Alliance are still foreign invaders into Lordaeron and that their actions are more conquest based than taking out Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-09-04 at 11:05 PM.

  18. #218
    I wouldn't mind seeing more storytelling (or even questing) about the Alliance trying to retake Lordaeron, but in they end they should (and likely always will) fail.

    Forsaken players need those zones, to quest and level in. Plus, it seems kinda silly for zones to permanently change hands. Alliance doesn't need those zones, they already have their leveling areas.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    So basically, you're an Alliance fanboy with no real concept of how Militarily impossible that would be right?
    I've been a Horde player ever since I started playing Warcraft 2 multiplayer as Orc a long, long time ago. And I believe that the Forsaken will either leave or be kicked out of the Horde as soon as the current two faction alliances are no longer needed. Possibly in a future game. How would the Forsaken resist an Alliance/Human attack without the backing of the Horde?

    BTW, most of my WoW characters are Undead.

  20. #220
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    in general i have no problem with the game never ending (i.e. with neither the horde nor the alliance ever beating and conquering the other)

    i would like to see territorial shifts from expansion to expansion with general parity in the number of leveling and questing zones, as well as parity in the number of faction capitals.

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