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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it's not. Not in terms of catch up and not in terms of overall player progression. Far less frequently is a clever euphemism for they never pay out and it's all subject to rng. Look it just cant' be. If it was as good as before PEOPLE WOULD STOP DOING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT. That's what happened in cataclysm. It's not happening in mists because the alternatives DONT PAY OUT AS GOOD. It's designed NOT TO be as good as it was in cataclysm. According to the developers people would just do the content that was effecient but not fun i.e NOT RAID. Well if it was as good or better than the previous expansions that same behaviour would occur and people would skip raids. People are not skipping raids.
    Remember that raids have been made far more accessible in this expansion with a tool such as LFR. Dragon Soul actually saw a massive partecipation increase as well and HoT dungeons were infact seen as a stepping stone to gear for Dragon Soul LFR. Would you mind providing proof that people didn't do the current raids because they had dungeons? Right, you don't have any. Don't get me wrong, catching up was more convenient with dungeons and that's something I can't disagree on, but when catching up takes a couple weeks from the moment you ding 90 to get to about 500 itemlevel it's hardly excessive.

    Reproposing the question because it has never been answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The game has been raid-centric since it was born. Why did you start playing, again?
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

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  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
    Casuals don't need SoO gear if they aren't raiding. In full ToT gear dungeons are a joke. Shit in full blues dungeons are a joke... heroics are probably the easiest they've ever been, that is very casual friendly.

    And yeah it takes longer to max out your VP now, boo fucking hoo. You could max it in a day in Cata. But you can also get VP from far more sources than just dungeons and raids now, that's more accessible to casuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    In 5.2 you got rep from RAIDS so yes your back to raiding.
    Yes raiding, including LFR.

    The real question is, if you want gear why wouldn't you do LFR?

    That rep leveled itself.
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  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Remember that raids have been made far more accessible in this expansion with a tool such as LFR. Dragon Soul actually saw a massive partecipation increase as well and HoT dungeons were infact seen as a stepping stone to gear for Dragon Soul LFR. Would you mind providing proof that people didn't do the current raids because they had dungeons? Right, you don't have any. Don't get me wrong, catching up was more convenient with dungeons and that's something I can't disagree on, but when catching up takes a couple weeks from the moment you ding 90 to get to about 500 itemlevel it's hardly excessive.

    Reproposing the question because it has never been answered.
    Because in reality for most of the people playing it was actually never really raid centric. They did other things and other things kept them occupied. They never aspired to or never bothered to raid, hell most of them didn't even hit max level apparently. The developers may have been raid focused but that doesn't mean the game or the people playing it were.

    As for proof I can give you the developer quotes on this.

    I prefer the cata way. I really wonder if you just listened to an echo chamber those days.
    The problem we had then was players would give up quickly on a tough boss because they knew a new patch would bring tons of gear. (Source)
    It was if they were just gearing from patches and not from killing bosses. That's an effective but not very fun way to play.
    In other words players were skipping bosses (mostly because they were to hard but also because it was far to time consuming and not very casual friendly) to gear up in the alternative methods the developers had inadvertently provided. It's excessive and not very casual friendly and more importantly their is simple no alternative to raiding anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Casuals don't need SoO gear if they aren't raiding. In full ToT gear dungeons are a joke. Shit in full blues dungeons are a joke... heroics are probably the easiest they've ever been, that is very casual friendly.

    And yeah it takes longer to max out your VP now, boo fucking hoo. You could max it in a day in Cata. But you can also get VP from far more sources than just dungeons and raids now, that's more accessible to casuals.



    Yes raiding, including LFR.

    The real question is, if you want gear why wouldn't you do LFR?

    That rep leveled itself.
    For lots of reasons but the best and primary one is FUCK RAIDING. It's old tired and stale and is only really exhausting with it's unnecessary complexity. Christ and then people wonder and say well wow is old well yea it's old but the hyper focus on the most old and stale aspects of the game sure helps out.

    Getting it from more sources is also not defacto casual friendly. Ummm It could be every action in the game awarding it to you but if it only awarded it to you at 2 valor an hour let's say then it still wouldn't be very casual friendly. Getting it from one source at an extremely good rate could potentially be very casual friendly, it's just a matter of specifics and details. As for the need it's never been about need, hardcores don't need the actual gear either, the real hardcores proved this. They raid HM without it by and large. If heroics were easy and still awarded insane amounts of character progression then yes thta would be casual friendly. Also if we got more of them this expansion instead of rehashes then yea that would be casual friendly as well. Nope not getting that.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 12:41 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because in reality for most of the people playing it was actually never really raid centric. They did other things and other things kept them occupied. They never aspired to or never bothered to raid, hell most of them didn't even hit max level apparently. The developers may have been raid focused but that doesn't mean the game or the people playing it were.

    As for proof I can give you the developer quotes on this.

    In other words players were skipping bosses (mostly because they were to hard but also because it was far to time consuming and not very casual friendly) to gear up in the alternative methods the developers had inadvertently provided. It's excessive and not very casual friendly and more importantly their is simple no alternative to raiding anymore.
    What the quote is saying is that alternatives were used because people got stuck on raids. People don't get stuck on LFR anymore, it's actually pretty much a joke, which means that's basically the alternative to normal/hc raiding. Notice how he says nothing about needing to have an alternative to raids, but just needing an alternative for when you get stuck on something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    For lots of reasons but the best and primary one is FUCK RAIDING. It's old tired and stale and is only really exhausting with it's unnecessary complexity. Christ and then people wonder and say well wow is old well yea it's old but the hyper focus on the most old and stale aspects of the game sure helps out.
    And what would the primary content be? Dungeons? I already explained a few pages back why I think it won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    The problem in small 5man dungeons content is that it either revolves around grinding or it basically becomes lots of small raids in which you need to progress. (Just quoted this post because cba going to the last page, forgive me. ) Having something new to do (as in to progress through and get down) is far more appealing to the majority than just farming the same content over and over again (5man dungeons). Look at the game where you supposedly got the idea from (GW2). 5man dungeons can prove to be a challenge the first time you do it, maybe the second and the third. After that it all becomes a grindfest and people started asking what the point was and quitting. Of 4.6million people that purchased the game, I doubt more than 1 is still playing. Heck, they showed statistics for current onlines and it was 460k. Now, assuming they don't shaft their PR on purpose, that's probably their peak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Getting it from more sources is also not defacto casual friendly. Ummm It could be every action in the game awarding it to you but if it only awarded it to you at 2 valor an hour let's say then it still wouldn't be very casual friendly. As for the need it's never been about need, hardcores don't need the actual gear either, the real hardcores proved this. They raid HM without it by and large. If heroics were easy and still awarded insane amounts of character progression then yes thta would be casual friendly. Also if we got more of them this expansion instead of rehashes then yea that would be casual friendly as well. Nope not getting that.
    No, you don't need them if you're not a world class player. Just like professional snookers players don't need to think nearly as much as amateur ones to get a great play done. It's true that you can get (almost) anywhere with a lot of effort. Effort however, just like most things, suffers from diminishing returns in the sense that putting a certain amount of effort will reward less and less increase the higher you are. Asking for someone to do a hour and a half raid wing is something, asking for someone to level and gear up at least 2 alts (that's how much Method requires) in order to do three raids the first week is a completely different thing.

    Also, the last commend about heroic raids needing to be easy to be doable by casuals just makes me think that you're confusing bad players and casual ones.
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  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    What the quote is saying is that alternatives were used because people got stuck on raids. People don't get stuck on LFR anymore, it's actually pretty much a joke, which means that's basically the alternative to normal/hc raiding. Notice how he says nothing about needing to have an alternative to raids, but just needing an alternative for when you get stuck on something.
    He doesn't say anything about it because the developers are convinced that everyone should aspire to raiding. What he's actually saying is that people were choosing other content that wasn't raiding when that other content was awarding as well or better than raiding. LFR cannot server as other content that isn't raiding BECAUSE IT"S STILL RAIDING. He can't say anything about having an alternative because he knows that if people were given that alternative they would not do raids. They weren't doing raids in the past what would all of a sudden change to make them do raids. Well they'd have to make raiding this insane catch all. Even more of a hyper focus on raiding then in the past and guess what it hasn't worked to keep anybody. They've still lost players by the boatloads and while we can't say the reasons for those millions of individuals we can say that LFR and raiding in general has not worked to retain them. If they chose not to do raids then raiding would cease to be economical in terms of time to the amount of people it entertained and they'd have to go back to making other contnet like dungeons that had wider appeal.

    The last comment wasn't on heroic raids, if it's about heroic raids ill say HM but I was talking about Heroic dungeons. Sorry playing dota atm all over the place kinda.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 01:02 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    He doesn't say anything about it because the developers are convinced that everyone should aspire to raiding. What he's actually saying is that people were choosing other content that wasn't raiding when that other content was awarding as well or better than raiding. LFR cannot server as other content that isn't raiding BECAUSE IT"S STILL RAIDING. He can't say anything about having an alternative because he knows that if people were given that alternative they would not do raids. They weren't doing raids in the past what would all of a sudden change to make them do raids. Well they'd have to make raiding this insane catch all. Even more of a hyper focus on raiding then in the past and guess what it hasn't worked to keep anybody. They've still lost players by the boatloads and while we can't say the reasons for those millions of individuals we can say that LFR and raiding in general has not worked to retain them. If they chose not to do raids then raiding would cease to be economical in terms of time to the amount of people it entertained and they'd have to go back to making other contnet like dungeons that had wider appeal.

    The last comment wasn't on heroic raids, if it's about heroic raids ill say HM but I was talking about Heroic dungeons. Sorry playing dota atm all over the place kinda.
    The point is that the game is an MMORPG, which stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. If you're taking large group content away, you might as well not play an MMO and instead play single player games about progressing your character. You want to play with friends? Most of those console games have multiplayer via LAN/screen sharing. Raiding is the core of MMORPGs because otherwise that wouldn't be their name. If you can't afford to play a game like this, you probably have chosen the wrong game, because that's not what an MMORPG is about. It sounds harsh, but I'll actually repost here what I said previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Because that's what an RPGMMO is about. Killing big bad guys with others. If you don't do so, you may as well play single player games. If you really can't play for one hour to one and a half (because that's how long it actually takes to do an LFR wing nowadays) then you should consider that online play in complex games isn't for you, and that you should either switch to simple online games or complex single player games. Multiplayer requires by default the partecipation of other players. If you can't wait for other players, as harsh as it may sound, that's how things stand. And that's about right for every game out there. If you want solo content, you may as well play a single player game, because you're not interacting with players anyways.
    If you don't like raids, can you provide your example of large-scale content which would appeal you?
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  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    For lots of reasons but the best and primary one is FUCK RAIDING. It's old tired and stale and is only really exhausting with it's unnecessary complexity. Christ and then people wonder and say well wow is old well yea it's old but the hyper focus on the most old and stale aspects of the game sure helps out.

    Getting it from more sources is also not defacto casual friendly. Ummm It could be every action in the game awarding it to you but if it only awarded it to you at 2 valor an hour let's say then it still wouldn't be very casual friendly. Getting it from one source at an extremely good rate could potentially be very casual friendly, it's just a matter of specifics and details. As for the need it's never been about need, hardcores don't need the actual gear either, the real hardcores proved this. They raid HM without it by and large. If heroics were easy and still awarded insane amounts of character progression then yes thta would be casual friendly. Also if we got more of them this expansion instead of rehashes then yea that would be casual friendly as well. Nope not getting that.
    I GET IT ALRIGHT!? You want to log in and queue for dungeons and NOTHING ELSE EVER. EVER. EVER.

    If you only want to do part of the game you only get part of the rewards, it's that simple.

    You are also an anomaly, most casuals do LFR and are not completely 100% obsessed with heroics to the exclusion of everything else.
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #568
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I GET IT ALRIGHT!? You want to log in and queue for dungeons and NOTHING ELSE EVER. EVER. EVER.

    If you only want to do part of the game you only get part of the rewards, it's that simple.

    You are also an anomaly, most casuals do LFR and are not completely 100% obsessed with heroics to the exclusion of everything else.
    No that's not what I want. you don't get it. I want an alternative to raiding the provides me with character advancement as good or better than raiding. A casual friendly alternative. It doesn't necessarily have to be dungeons although that was what we had in the past. They could do something innovative and fresh but that never happens so yea dungeons I guess.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No that's not what I want. you don't get it. I want an alternative to raiding the provides me with character advancement as good or better than raiding. A casual friendly alternative. It doesn't necessarily have to be dungeons although that was what we had in the past. They could do something innovative and fresh but that never happens so yea dungeons I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    If you don't like raids, can you provide your example of large-scale content which would appeal you?
    It needs to be large scale because this is an MMO.
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  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    It needs to be large scale because this is an MMO.
    Sorry no it doesn't. The label mmo is pretty meaningless (hell wow became a success defying most conventions of the label) and mmos are moving away from that anyway. It doesn't NEED to be anything other than what customers are after.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Sorry no it doesn't. The label mmo is pretty meaningless (hell wow became a success defying most conventions of the label) and mmos are moving away from that anyway. It doesn't NEED to be anything other than what customers are after.
    I'm sorry but it does, otherwise it's not classified as an MMO anymore. The real point is that you want to play another genre with the same.. mechanics? graphics? as wow.
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  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    I'm sorry but it does, otherwise it's not classified as an MMO anymore. The real point is that you want to play another genre with the same.. mechanics? graphics? as wow.
    No it doesn't. Like I said 7 or 8 or whatever years ago wow became a success DEFYING all the traditions and conventions of the genre. It doesn't have to follow anything. The games success is built on doing the opposite of what every one thought an mmo should do, it REDEFINED it in many aspects. That's success. People said wow wasn't a true mmo back then as well.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it doesn't. Like I said 7 or 8 or whatever years ago wow became a success DEFYING all the traditions and conventions of the genre. It doesn't have to follow anything. The games success is built on doing the opposite of what every one thought an mmo should do, it REDEFINED it in many aspects. That's success. People said wow wasn't a true mmo back then as well.
    Grinding was a convention, that's true. But it's nowhere implied in the genre's name. The game success is indeed built shattering those conventions, but still being an MMO, because that's what its genre is. You can innovate and still be inside a genre, as long as you don't go againist the defining principles of it. Not proviign Massive Multiplayer Online experience is not being an MMO anymore. You seem to be confusing a genre's defining traits and a genre's conventions.
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  14. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Grinding was a convention, that's true. But it's nowhere implied in the genre's name. The game success is indeed built shattering those conventions, but still being an MMO, because that's what its genre is. You can innovate and still be inside a genre, as long as you don't go againist the defining principles of it. Not proviign Massive Multiplayer Online experience is not being an MMO anymore. You seem to be confusing a genre's defining traits and a genre's conventions.
    No actually I'm not. The defining trait of mmo experiences was say massive parties on the order of 80+ players. Guess what wow was a success not doing? It is ridiculous to think that a game whos success has been progressive movements AWAY from the genre traits and conventions and traditions should embrace them now and not consider abolishing them entirely. Call it hello kittie island adventure I don't give a fuck. The genre label is MEANINGLESS (in fact embracing it is ultimately harmful as hard dungeons proved) and the success of the developers proves this.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 01:37 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No that's not what I want ... so yea dungeons I guess.
    /headdesk...

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    /headdesk...
    It's not ultimately the point I was trying to make it's just that in a practical sense since the developers can't come up with anything new it ends up boiling down to dungeons.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I don't assume that at all - what i assume is that a player who is benched can go into and out of a flexi raid at will with no repurcussions. "Got benched for a boss? Cool join our flexi meantime mate."

    I don't think you are appreciating how awesome flexi is. People can join and leave a flexi run at will, with no getting saved or anything.


    When you are being rotated you can go flexi with no barriers.
    No you can't Injin, not unless you're being rotated out for the last boss(es). Cause a boss fight never takes more than 10 minutes, good luck finding a Flex pug and clear a boss in 10 mins, before it's your time to be rotated back in again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Allow me to jump in for a sec... what I think you're missing is that more casual guilds attract different people than heroic guilds. Heroic guilds have a rep on their servers and by and large the people who seriously apply to them know what they're getting into with things like standby, DKP, etc. They will put up with that because the reward is being part of a server first guild or at least a high end, heroic guild. That might mean prestige to a player or just that they're part of a team playing at a high level.

    In contrast, a more laid back guild attracts people who aren't as into that stuff and so might not take to being rotated in and out in the same manner. They just want to show up a couple of nights a week and raid with decent players, not worry about standby, DKP, who need what loot from which boss, etc. Also, trying to rotate adds complexity, overhead and potential drama which the RL and officers need to deal with.

    Now, imagine you're a casual 10 man raid. You want to progress some, but you'll be satisfied if you clear normals in the current tier. You can define a rotation scheme, publicize the rules, get people to buy in, deal with some people who don't like it and leave by recruiting, etc.... OR you can decide you're not all that invested in whatever prestige comes with clearing normals, say "fuck it" and raid flex. If 13 people want to raid, great, you raid with 13. If the next night only 11 show, no problem. Same if 15 show. Awesome, let's all raid. None of the overhead, none of the drama. Hell, since loot is personal like LFR there's not even a need for DKP schemes.

    Flex will kill normal mode guilds. Some normal mode guilds will step it up and become the entry tier of heroic raids... but the guilds who pretty much only raid normals? In 6.x those will be a tiny minority and most organized non-heroic raids will be flex.
    Yes, Flex will accommodate having more than 10 players, but what we were talking about, is why 10 man Normal guilds don't have more than 10 players in their roster and just rotate. Cause Flex won't do you any good, if only 9 players show up. Yes you can pug, but that's always been an option.

    That said, I do believe we're going to see a decline in 10 man Normal guilds. I just don't think they're going to completely disappear. But probably something in between, since Flex doesn't share lockout with anything.

  18. #578
    Deleted
    its a rlly good idea. Much more todo now for the PVE hardcore players, more loot to farm . will help allot for the top guilds to get faster progress,
    also for the less skilled players they can learn the basics of normal progress in flex-raid with some exp players

  19. #579
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    No you can't Injin, not unless you're being rotated out for the last boss(es). Cause a boss fight never takes more than 10 minutes, good luck finding a Flex pug and clear a boss in 10 mins, before it's your time to be rotated back in again.
    You are mistaking your HC experience with the average experience. Most regular guilds still often wipe on farm content.

    In any event, their will still be a shitload of wiping going on in the first months before it all becomes farm content. Which means plenty of time to get stuff done.



    Yes, Flex will accommodate having more than 10 players, but what we were talking about, is why 10 man Normal guilds don't have more than 10 players in their roster and just rotate. Cause Flex won't do you any good, if only 9 players show up. Yes you can pug, but that's always been an option.
    Flexi goes as low as 8 man and you can take literally anyone to it without them getting saved. Will take 30 seconds to get someone from trade to fill in.
    That said, I do believe we're going to see a decline in 10 man Normal guilds. I just don't think they're going to completely disappear. But probably something in between, since Flex doesn't share lockout with anything.
    Flex has got waaaay too much going for it compared to normal mode.

    What I can see happening is a rebirth of 25 man normal mode guilds in the near future though. Once you are going 25 flexi and your guild knows all the mechanics and fights, why not just flip that toggle and clear it on 25 normal after flexi is cleared? Same shit, slightly harder, better loot.

  20. #580
    Deleted
    i like to play lfr, fuck me right

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