Too many bosses in SoO ?

[Deleted]

There will be powerful ICC/DS buffs/debuffs. If you clear 12/12 ToT normal now, you will likely be able to clear at least 8/14 heroic SoO with the buff at full strength. If you've cleared 3-5/13 in heroic ToT, expect to see a full SoO heroic clear if your raiding team stays intact throughout the patch.

[Tehterokkar]

Between TF and item upgrades, people are as high as 15 ilevel above the original heroic drop levels (535), that was their system this time around and it in many cases felt more nerfed than 30%. You didn't see people dropping putricide in 4 minutes, but you see 2-3 minute council of elder kills pretty easily.

Nerfs of that magnitude with an additional 30% nerf would simply be ridiculous. I'd be shell shocked if blizzard put a debuff in this tier.

The 5% stacking nerf had nothing to do with it being a 'tradition' for last expac tiers, they were 'ohshit' fixes for overtuned instances or poorly laid out difficulty curves. Both things that ICC/DS were accused of possessing.

The only few challenging bosses were Warlord Zon'ozz(partly RNG I guess), Spine and Madness in DS. Rest were very much a joke on Heroic mechanic-wise.

I'm all up for nerfs after maybe 6 months, but they shouldn't put the nerfs in when the Tier hasn't even been out the same amount of time as T14/T15. If people can't clear SoO in the time frame they were given in ToT for example, then they should put nerfs in(progressive like DS).

[Deleted]

Between TF and item upgrades, people are as high as 15 ilevel above the original heroic drop levels (535), that was their system this time around and it in many cases felt more nerfed than 30%. You didn't see people dropping putricide in 4 minutes, but you see 2-3 minute council of elder kills pretty easily.

Nerfs of that magnitude with an additional 30% nerf would simply be ridiculous. I'd be shell shocked if blizzard put a debuff in this tier.

The 5% stacking nerf had nothing to do with it being a 'tradition' for last expac tiers, they were 'ohshit' fixes for overtuned instances or poorly laid out difficulty curves. Both things that ICC/DS were accused of possessing.

Well technically, it wasn't a 30% nerf, it was a lot more than that since more than one thing got nerfed by 30%. Still, expect to get shocked. DS was never overtuned apart from the very high burst requirement on spine and madness and it too was facerolled with gear even without the nerf due to high scaling.

I can agree with ICC being overtuned though (at least LK), but I still believe that they'll implement a stacking nerf, because they want people to experience the content. They want to give people the final push at the final boss of the expansion. That's why ToT is getting nerfed in 5.4. That's why the outgearing argument is invalid.

Please remember me when you see that Blizzard announces that they'll add a stacking nerf. Remember that I was right.

[IxilaFA]

doesnt matter how many days you raid, its how you spend the time / players
And the amount of bosses is alright ish

Usually you're right, but for strict 2-days, six hours a week guilds it's a killer to have this many bosses.

Despite my guild's best efforts we ended at 11/13H because the amount of bouncing around required this tier to kill heroic bosses was ridiculous. Why was the 6th heroic boss in the instance the second easiest one? Why was Iron Qon easier than Horridon?

If Blizzard tunes it correctly so that the heroic difficulty scales evenly as well as normal difficulty, then I don't really foresee a problem with this next tier. But I swear if we have to clear 10/14 Normal just to get to the easier heroic bosses this time around, I'm going to punch a wall.

And BTW this wasn't a guild specific issue. About 1300 guilds downed Lei Shen on Heroic, and about 80 - 100 of those were 2-day a week guilds. Shouldn't that indicate a problem?

- - - Updated - - -

The only few challenging bosses were Warlord Zon'ozz(partly RNG I guess), Spine and Madness in DS. Rest were very much a joke on Heroic mechanic-wise.

I'm all up for nerfs after maybe 6 months, but they shouldn't put the nerfs in when the Tier hasn't even been out the same amount of time as T14/T15. If people can't clear SoO in the time frame they were given in ToT for example, then they should put nerfs in(progressive like DS).

Nerfs are a very bad thing for current content. Valor upgrades, I think, are the best solution to this problem. It gives the top end guilds that same feeling of being on top while giving bottom tier guilds an easier slope to climb. When you see people clearing 8/8H Dragon Soul after 8 months at the 30% nerf, it diminishes your accomplishment. You could argue valor gear does the same thing, but it's not such a quick thing. It's not like a week passes and all of a sudden 10 more guilds are 13/13H because the nerf went in.

And say what you want about upgrades but I really don't think 8 ilvls even comes close to a 30% flat nerf to boss HP and damage. Bosses still do the same amount of damage whether your gear is ilvl 535 or 543, and the amount of HP or increased stats you get from 8 ilvl isn't enough to make up for a lack of skill. Not only that, but with valor upgrades you'll reach a gear cap pretty quickly if you can't continue to progress, while with flat nerfs you never reached a "cap" until the content was done.

[Deleted]

I cant imagine how a mediocre guild can progress in SoO when there's 15 bosses. My guild is raiding 5 nights a week and we dont have Heroic Lei Shen down yet.

Well, think its fine with 14 bosses, they shall all go down with time. And if you cant take down HC Lei Shen with 5 nights a week raiding, I guess its not ment to be. *shrugs*

Seriously.

I'm fed up with people.

"Not enough bosses!" then they add more "Too many bosses!" FFS man!

With Character models it's the same it's "You're taking too long!" had they released it the same people would be complaining that the models are too different from the old and feel too foreign and that we have reused models because of Art Department being put doubletime on model duty rather than other art duty.


No matter what it's "To hell with you Blizzard! You didn't do it right!".

Too hard, too easy, too accessible, not accessible enough. Not enough options, too many options.

As a long time member of the community I can easily say we will NEVER be please and that fact disheartens me. I've seen people call for one course of action and then literally call for the OPPOSITE course of action once that one goes live. They don't realize it either but if it's not 100% what they imagined in their head they don't want it, even if their idea was shit to begin with.

Agree on this. Its like the police, no matter what they do its either to little or to much lol. Blizzard can never win duo that people complain and wants to much, and when they get, its not EXACTLY what they want. : /

[Tehterokkar]

Nerfs are a very bad thing for current content. Valor upgrades, I think, are the best solution to this problem. It gives the top end guilds that same feeling of being on top while giving bottom tier guilds an easier slope to climb. When you see people clearing 8/8H Dragon Soul after 8 months at the 30% nerf, it diminishes your accomplishment. You could argue valor gear does the same thing, but it's not such a quick thing. It's not like a week passes and all of a sudden 10 more guilds are 13/13H because the nerf went in.

And say what you want about upgrades but I really don't think 8 ilvls even comes close to a 30% flat nerf to boss HP and damage. Bosses still do the same amount of damage whether your gear is ilvl 535 or 543, and the amount of HP or increased stats you get from 8 ilvl isn't enough to make up for a lack of skill. Not only that, but with valor upgrades you'll reach a gear cap pretty quickly if you can't continue to progress, while with flat nerfs you never reached a "cap" until the content was done.

Well, it's not like anyone can just rofl stomp through Lei Shen or Dark Animus Heroic even in SoO. Strategy is what ends up killing the bosses, not gear. The more complex bosses have to be executed perfectly or you will wipe. Even though ToT will get a -20% Health/Damage buff in 5.4, I don't see people killing Dark Animus heroic without many wipes on 25 at least(in 10m you can zerg it so easily in 5.4)

[Deleted]

I cant imagine how a mediocre guild can progress in SoO when there's 15 bosses. My guild is raiding 5 nights a week and we dont have Heroic Lei Shen down yet.

No offence or anything but what does the number of nights you raid have to do with your raids ability to down bosses?

[Frozenbeef]

Your prob gonna be stuck in there for like a year until the next expansion , the more bosses the better :P

[Deleted]

Can't have enough bosses.

[bigrichard]

One man's "too many" is another man's "not enough".

[Deleted]

Will make it very difficult for a lot of guilds. Doing both normal and flexi will be time intensive.

Almost impossible for 5-6 hour a week guilds, even. Which will they pick?

[Navitas]

Will make it very difficult for a lot of guilds. Doing both normal and flexi will be time intensive.

Almost impossible for 5-6 hour a week guilds, even. Which will they pick?

Normal. Why you would choose Flex over Normal (if you've got the numbers) is beyond me.

And people moaning about too much content? Good. God.

[Dristereau]

People are complaining... about TOO MUCH content?

Sheesh. Complain with too little. Complain if its terrible. Don't complain if there's a lot. And just saying, five nights a week doesn't mean you should have a guaranteed Lei Shen kill. I'm assuming people are making mistakes or there are some issues going on. And most mediocre guilds will clear on normal or flex, extended lockouts exist if they have run out of time for that week.

[muto]

If you can't kill 15 bosses in likely 6+ months, then something is wrong.

[Drakiru]

14 bosses is a bit much, I'd rather have 2 raids with 7 than 1 with 14

[Navitas]

14 bosses is a bit much, I'd rather have 2 raids with 7 than 1 with 14

I'd prefer one with 14 than 2 with 7. You can't please everyone.

[Deleted]

I prefer big raids with alot of bosses, so looking forward to this.

It's also friendlier to casuals, as more bosses = smoother difficulty ramp up curve.

[Solonar]

ICC had 12 bosses, Dragon Soul had only 8 bosses. In both cases a wave of boredom erupted after a while because of the lengthy wait for the next Expansion. 14 bosses in this case isn't at all a problem. Plus as others have said, if you really got a problem progressing in this raid with several raid days over what will probably be double the time we've had for Mogu'Shan/Heart of Fear/Terrace & Throne of Thunder, if not more...something's wrong with you or your guild, not the raid.

[Deleted]

not trying to be rude or anything but if you're struggling to clear them on 5 nights a week of effort the wall is your guild's ability and nothing more. Flex raiding is targeted for your guild so you can complete it, get meaningful gear that isn't dreadful LFR experience and even get glory of the orgrimmar raider. Having 14 bosses isn't too many though.

Flex is in no way targeted at players who do heroic modes.
The annoying part about 14 bosses is the time it takes to farm and get back to your progress. Obviously it also depends on the amount of trash.
It is a LOT of bosses now when you cannot even skip some of them (like tier 14).

(It obviously depends on the amount of time the tier will last. I doubt it'll last much more than 7 months)

[Flura]

The problem is not the number of bosses but your guild raiding quality. 5 nights a week and not 13/13 only suggests to me that you have a few if not many bad apples in your roster.

if he has 11/13 HC, its more then most of the guilds, talking from bad apples is a little bit exaggerated