[5.4] Protection Warrior

[sirmo7]

the loss will be around .2 total avoidance

im using this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jYk52akE#gid=0

for eg.current avoidance is 41.67, and if i add 2500 dodge and subtract 2500 parry, total avoidance will be 41.77 =>> 0.1 more avoidance, but parry is better for revenge's dmg

[Deleted]

The reason for asking for the changed APL is that i don't know how simcraft is working internally. After all it's a list and a list is stepped trough from the first to the last entry, so i could image that putting sblock before SS the coding belonging to sblock is done first thus applying the sblock-buff on us and the "following" SS benefits from glyph of hr. I don't know if there is some sort of stop condition too for example if an APL entry is globaled no following entry is taken care of because only a single globaled activity can be done.

The reduced damage taken of tehpounderer's sim points to some sort of discrepance by just changing the order of the list.

@Khorm: Depends on the way you wan't to go. If aiming for critblock-cap go for crit/mastery one. If shooting for avoid take the parry/hit one.

[Deleted]

Thoughts? I know that a lot of people who kick around these forums come from a perspective of higher ilvl gear, and yeah, I would definitely recommend dropping stamina a bit to maximize as best fits your raid team as you get better gear. But most people just aren't there -- I'll run a report on average ilvls for the past 500k characters loaded on AMR this week, but I would be surprised if more than 5-10% were above ilvl525 or so.

I use AMR a lot and many times it's for my alts (or to check out guildies) rather than my main. With my main (a palatank), I feel confident tweaking the weights but with some alts, I tend to just run with defaults. My alts (mostly tanks) are very under-geared relative to my main: most just below the 496 requirement for SoO LFR (I'll push them over with 496 pvp gear and cheaper badge gear after the patch). I'll be taking them into SoO LFR at some point and suspect that high stamina will be a good idea. (Even now, they can fall down in ToT LFR).

It's difficult to know where to pitch the default in AMR: the neglected alt, the LFR player, the 10N main, the 10H main, the 25H main, the top 200 guild etc.

I wonder if it would be good - at least for tanks - to have an option for what content the player is gearing for? (There's already options for what content you can get gear from.) And to adjust recommendations based on the player's ilevel relative to that requirement for the content? It would require a lot of judgement but I suspect for the typical AMR player who does not adjust weights, it makes sense to recommend going stamina heavy if they just met the requirement and then going for medium stamina when they approach the ilevel that drops from the content.

[CollisionTD]

The reason for asking for the changed APL is that i don't know how simcraft is working internally. After all it's a list and a list is stepped trough from the first to the last entry, so i could image that putting sblock before SS the coding belonging to sblock is done first thus applying the sblock-buff on us and the "following" SS benefits from glyph of hr. I don't know if there is some sort of stop condition too for example if an APL entry is globaled no following entry is taken care of because only a single globaled activity can be done.

The reduced damage taken of tehpounderer's sim points to some sort of discrepance by just changing the order of the list.

@Khorm: Depends on the way you wan't to go. If aiming for critblock-cap go for crit/mastery one. If shooting for avoid take the parry/hit one.

Shield block is off the GCD, so it'll be used as long as there is rage available. The list will run through the list, use shield block, not trigger a gcd or move up in "time", then run through the list again until it reaches shield slam (if usable), and use it. The buff from shield block is applied immediately, so even if the time doesn't change, shield slam should still have the additional damage as long as it is used AFTER block.

What is probably happening is that shield slam is being used, which pushes you over the amount of rage needed to use shield block, and then shield block is used immediately.

[mongoose6]

I use AMR a lot and many times it's for my alts (or to check out guildies) rather than my main. With my main (a palatank), I feel confident tweaking the weights but with some alts, I tend to just run with defaults. My alts (mostly tanks) are very under-geared relative to my main: most just below the 496 requirement for SoO LFR (I'll push them over with 496 pvp gear and cheaper badge gear after the patch). I'll be taking them into SoO LFR at some point and suspect that high stamina will be a good idea. (Even now, they can fall down in ToT LFR).

It's difficult to know where to pitch the default in AMR: the neglected alt, the LFR player, the 10N main, the 10H main, the 25H main, the top 200 guild etc.

I wonder if it would be good - at least for tanks - to have an option for what content the player is gearing for? (There's already options for what content you can get gear from.) And to adjust recommendations based on the player's ilevel relative to that requirement for the content? It would require a lot of judgement but I suspect for the typical AMR player who does not adjust weights, it makes sense to recommend going stamina heavy if they just met the requirement and then going for medium stamina when they approach the ilevel that drops from the content.

I don't think its really possible for AMR to take the level of play into gearing consideration. I think using sites like AMR for either tanks or healers is a mistake anyways. DPS is a science, tanking and healing is a symbiotic art. IMO, you should base your gearing considerations on the effectiveness of your healers, the specific encounters, and by using sites like this to recieve constructive input if you happen to run into a specific problem.

[Tehpounderer]

I think using sites like AMR for either tanks or healers is a mistake anyways. DPS is a science, tanking and healing is a symbiotic art. IMO, you should base your gearing considerations on the effectiveness of your healers, the specific encounters, and by using sites like this to recieve constructive input if you happen to run into a specific problem.

I assume you mean blindly following the default stat weights in tools like AMR to choose gear is a mistake? Just responding to clarify that AMR has far more uses than strictly gear selection. The best in bags feature, suggestions on how to spend valor, suggestions on what bosses to use coins on, etc. Blindly using anything is bad, but the tool itself and its many uses is effective and a huge time saver in many situations.

[Deleted]

Do we still want to keep parry and dodge equal?

Yes, i'd do that. The possible gains of favoring parry for hold the line are negible IMHO but see below:

the loss will be around .2 total avoidance [...]

Well it's not only gems but also some reforges, i'd talk in bigger numbers for an easier comparison:

20k strength, 20k avoidance. With 10k dodge and 10k parry you'd get 0.5% more avoidance after DR compared to 5k dodge and 15k parry at the "cost" of <5% additional parry chance for HtL. This would translate into <2.5% more damage dealt with revenge in a perfect scenario, that's not enough to me to worry to much about it to be honest and keep both close together for the easier time being.

->
red: exp, parry
blue: hit, stamina
yellow: dodge

You could ignore most blue sockets if you already have enough hit on gear but it's really hard to put a prizetag on x% crit vs several thousand hitpoints and some strength and other minor boni.

Ps: for 2p i'll go for pants + either gloves or shoulders, doesn't matter. Both have exp/mastery and a dodge/parry alternative. Helmet/chest have more item budget so going for offpieces there is way more attractive. Still wondering about the missing pants this tier, only 3 dropping total incl. 2x set? And so many pieces with avoid/hit, we'll have a really hard time not running with to much of it in 10M. 4250 is the maximum desired value, after that we can't reforge out of it effectively... and tier pants alone already offer 1.500, 1.700 after upgrading heroic ones.

[mongoose6]

I assume you mean blindly following the default stat weights in tools like AMR to choose gear is a mistake? Just responding to clarify that AMR has far more uses than strictly gear selection. The best in bags feature, suggestions on how to spend valor, suggestions on what bosses to use coins on, etc. Blindly using anything is bad, but the tool itself and its many uses is effective and a huge time saver in many situations.

Yes, I'm saying you shouldn't just blindly follow the defaults. It does have some cool features and its actually really great for most dps classes, but I think for tanking and healing its more about finding something that works well for yourself and your healers. I use AMR to get me as close as possible to my hit/exp caps and then branch out from there for what works for me without any other input from the site. I use nothing at all for my healer and go by what I feel is the best for me.

[FTW]

Despite what a majority of this thread is saying, I think the best way to go is still going to be Hit/Exp > Parry/Dodge > Crit. Crit GEMMING but reforge, gear, and enchants all avoidance still for a 10 man environment. Don't think a little extra avoidance in the gemming is going to outweigh the crit/stam and exp/crit gems.

[Deleted]

And this is why? Please elaborate, we showed you math and reasons not to. Just because Sloot said that about one of his alts? You get almost the same out of avoidance at 10, 20 and 30k rating - why would you start with gems? There's no "little" avoidance gain from gems, we're talking about up to 6400 secondary stats, that's about 1/5 of the current avaible secondary stats. What's the gearlevel we're talking about here? You'll never have to bother with a fifth stat in reforge priority when you don't put an arbitrary cap on parry and dodge.

He's also colossus on his mainhand enchanted, will you start using that as well? http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...1/?s=736&e=997 128k heal over 4:20 minutes, wow...

I don't want to sound rude i just don't get the reasoning behind it. Maximising dps? Then you'd probably also want to reforge into crit over dodge/parry as well, to me the "little extra crit" isn't going to outweigh the gains of a huge amount of avoidance, 1k is very roughly 1% avoid post DR.

[FTW]

And this is why? Please elaborate, we showed you math and reasons not to. Just because Sloot said that about one of his alts? You get almost the same out of avoidance at 10, 20 and 30k rating - why would you start with gems? There's no "little" avoidance gain from gems, we're talking about up to 6400 secondary stats, that's about 1/5 of the current avaible secondary stats. Why not also reforge into crit if DR is really a concern to you and the gains are so little? And what's the gearlevel we're talking about here? You'll never have to bother with a fifth stat in reforge priority when you don't put an arbitrary cap on parry and dodge.

He's also colossus on his mainhand enchanted, will you start using that as well? http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...1/?s=736&e=997 128k heal over 4:20 minutes, wow...

PM'ed, check your inbox

[Deleted]

Guild crashes so not gonna raid before 5.4, took the chance to sort my gear today, will switch trinkets as needed but what do you guys think ?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uella/advanced

Im liking the crit/stam gem, i get like 0.1% more avoidance by keeping it equal, gonna favor htl slightly for now.
Decided to go with some passive crit, opted for caps->parry->dodge->crit, taking what mastery is on gear+buffs.
Contemplated going with dps/crit enchant on shoulder/back but for now going with the 500 stamina+.

I get 220k dps, 52,4k tmi, default apl.
Any point to model in execute in the rotation ? I mean, its a judgment call but it does happen.

[sirmo7]

Guild crashes so not gonna raid before 5.4, took the chance to sort my gear today, will switch trinkets as needed but what do you guys think ?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uella/advanced

Im liking the crit/stam gems, i get like 0.1% more avoidance by keeping it equal, gonna favor htl slightly for now.
Decided to go with some passive crit, opted for caps->parry->dodge->crit, taking what mastery is on gear+buffs.
Contemplated going with dps/crit enchant on shoulder/back but for now going with the 500 stamina+.

I get 220k dps, 52,4k tmi, default apl.
Any point to model in execute in the rotation ? I mean, its a judgment call but it does happen.

i think using parry+stam, or parry+hit is better than crit+stam for blue sockets, also u can use dodge/parry, or dodge for yellow sockets

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...adwar/advanced this is my toon, i will try TOT last 4 bosses sunday xD

[Deleted]

lol, thanks for pointing out which gems are available to me, i had no idea you could use dodge for yellow sockets *gasp*.

[Damosapien]

I'm still prioritising parry over dodge, I think glyph of hold the line will give more dps than the 0.23 avoidance I'd lose if I altered ratings, and that's while I have only 4000 odd dodge and 10000 parry.
that sound wrong?

edit: also I'm the offspec tank for my guild so when I'm needed and were on progression and I'll have lower i-level than our other tanks and were on 25 man hc, should I still prio stamina? i was planning to, just going to change my mastery-stam gems to dodge-stam on patch day.
i'm in my tank gear on armoury atm so check it out

[sirmo7]

lol, thanks for pointing out which gems are available to me, i had no idea you could use dodge for yellow sockets *gasp*.

My point is using dodge gem will benifit u more than crit

[Gliff]

lol, thanks for pointing out which gems are available to me, i had no idea you could use dodge for yellow sockets *gasp*.

Why are you giving him shit for helping you?

If you are going for a max riposte build then you should not be gemming/reforging crit over avoidance stats.

[Damosapien]

gemming crit: more damage taken, more damage done, spikier damage intake
riposte build: less damage taken, more damage done, spikier damage intake
mastery build: mediocre damage taken, less damage done, smooth damage intake

so

gemming crit: 2 negatives for 1 positive
riposte build: 1 negative for 2 positives
mastery build: 1 negative for 1 positive

the logic is simple, to still see people talking about crit gemming is madness, its only viable if you only do lfr... and if that's true what the hell are you doing trying to tell people how to play?

[Tehpounderer]

I believe the point is this:

Because of diminishing returns, the incremental gain from 320 dodge after you are at e.g. 12,000 dodge may be less valuable than 320 crit. It won't be game breaking in either case.

Using theoretical BiS gear with 12k dodge, I arbitrarily added 1000 crit and 1000 dodge to the gear set. 1.66% crit versus 0.87% Dodge and 1.25% crit (from Riposte). As I said, not game breaking and it really comes down to personal preference and what you expect your Riposte uptime to be (basically, 100% as long as you are tanking something).

[OrangeToast]

I'm just curious why the only thought process in gemming full avoidance is purely to lower dtps, when there should be work put into seeing where the breakpoint is between the lowest dtps and the highest dps. I doubt that gemming full avoidance is going to be the best even if you seriously outgear the content. As we see with current ToT warriors are already setting up a 'dps set' to tank the boss in dps gear because lowering their dtps is no longer an issue that needs to be taken into account. I don't doubt for a second that early on we will see a need to push our dtps as low as possible but there will also be a dps requirement on fights, can only show that gemming and reforging full avoidance is indeed the best for dps AND lower dtps rather than a balance that allows for an acceptable level of dtps while allowing for higher dps.