Poll: What should become of the veto power?

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  1. #61
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkcrusader View Post
    Hmm I see, the term Europe can be a bit ambiguous. I should've said European Union, as I didn't have Continents in mind but regional interests.

    In that respect adding Germany in addition to UK and France to represent EU interests sounds like a circle jerk.

    That's also why I think Brazil is important.
    Again, the Security Council is not designed to represent "regional interests", it is (or was) designed to reflect the great power balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  2. #62
    Deleted
    I see, in that case then, Japan is out of the question. And somewhere, in the inevitable future we'll have to remove France and UK and add Brazil and India when they're greater powers.

  3. #63
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    Aside from the humanitarian good that they do, they're essentially useless. I'd say they're all bark and no bite, but they aren't even barking any more.

    The Veto is one of those things that can be good and can be bad. Personally I like the idea that in an ideal world with 5 objective heads, a person can object to a conflict purely on the merits on what's in front of them as opposed to using a veto to further their own agenda. Sadly that isn't and likely never will be the case, especially with the current permanent members, again, unlikely to change either.

    I think they should scale back and focus purely on peace keeping forces(Which I think they currently already have) and humanitarian efforts.

  4. #64
    Deleted
    I have a better idea. Lets just dissolve the UN.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    I have a better idea. Lets just dissolve the UN.
    You planning on administering all those vaccines yourself?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkcrusader View Post
    I disagree on Germany and Japan.

    Europe is already very well represented, if not overly so. I think Germany realized this and is thus not seeking membership like it was in the past.

    Japan's membership would be utterly self-serving as no neighbor really likes them. They'd just mimic what the US wants. That goes against the idea of a security council.

    I agree on India obviously and would like to add Brazil. Any expansion of the council without Brazil would be dishonest.
    Japan has consistently contributed more to the United Nations than any other country, aside from the United States. In addition, they are virtually an economic superpower at this point. I think they've proven their stripes.

  7. #67
    You forgot an option for "Abolish the UN."

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    Ah, another idealist which has no clue how the world works.
    Please, enlighten me.
    Signature in progress...

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Zoranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SidheKnight View Post
    Please, enlighten me.
    Really short answer: Might makes right.

    The only thing that can force a powerful country to do something is an even more powerful country. Small and weak countries have always been existing at the mercy of their stronger neighbours, their only chance of survival has always been to find a powerful country to protect them. The current situation gives you 5 powers the smaller country can align themselves with.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  10. #70
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakura Chambers View Post
    How many large scale wars did the United Nations prevent exactly?
    The list goes on and on. Which wars did the United Nations prevent again?
    Gee, I dunno...the ones you can't mention, on account of them NOT HAVING TAKEN PLACE MAYBE?

  11. #71
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    You want my opinion on the security council? Abolish it. The UN's great, but a circle jerk for the powerful? No thanks. Besides the principle side of it, it hasn't even been of any practical use.

    Edit: A reform where every country gets to participate to a degree might be a better idea, but that wouldn't be any more useful than the current security council is because countries simply don't care if they get outvoted at a non-binding issue. The UN doesn't bind anyone to do anything when it comes to security issues, their resolutions are more like suggestions.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2013-09-07 at 07:52 PM.

  12. #72
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    You want my opinion on the security council? Abolish it. The UN's great, but a circle jerk for the powerful? No thanks. Besides the principle side of it, it hasn't even been of any practical use.

    Edit: A reform where every country gets to participate to a degree might be a better idea, but that wouldn't be any more useful than the current security council is because countries simply don't care if they get outvoted at a non-binding issue. The UN doesn't bind anyone to do anything when it comes to security issues, their resolutions are more like suggestions.
    Why does it make sense for a country the size of the United States to have the same voting power as a country like Togo or Chad in the UN? I can guarantee without the Security Council countries like the US, Russia, the UK, France, and China would pay even -less- attention to the UN than they do presently.

    What you, like most other people that say "disband the Security Council!" fail to realize is that it does exactly what it is designed to do - act as a forum for discussion between the world powers where they do not run the risk of being trampled on by a majority and they can occasionally decide to take unified action against a country that is acting up.

    If anything, what needs to be disbanded is the General Assembly because it perpetuates the belief that all of these small, peripheral countries are of any importance in the international stage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #73
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    Veto power is correct. The make up of the permanent security council needs changing though.

    I'd make it:
    US
    Russia
    China
    EU
    India

    Britain and France don't belong, its not 1790. Economically and militarily they are small players now. Give the EU a spot. Then fill in the 5th spot with India, which has about 1/7 of humanity.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Veto power is correct. The make up of the permanent security council needs changing though.

    I'd make it:
    US
    Russia
    China
    EU
    India

    Britain and France don't belong, its not 1790. Economically and militarily they are small players now. Give the EU a spot. Then fill in the 5th spot with India, which has about 1/7 of humanity.
    Pakistan would just ADORE this I'm sure.

    I do agree with that makeup being correct, if the EU was an actual unified nation.

  15. #75
    Scarab Lord Zoranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Veto power is correct. The make up of the permanent security council needs changing though.

    I'd make it:
    US
    Russia
    China
    EU
    India

    Britain and France don't belong, its not 1790. Economically and militarily they are small players now. Give the EU a spot. Then fill in the 5th spot with India, which has about 1/7 of humanity.
    Veto ensures this will never happen. And EU is not and hopefully will never be a country and as such cannot hold a permanent seat.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  16. #76
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoranon View Post
    Veto ensures this will never happen. And EU is not and hopefully will never be a country and as such cannot hold a permanent seat.
    Then give the 5th slot to Japan.

    Personally I think after this debt bullshit, the EU will have to move to central fiscal governance, and then after that it's not far from being a single country.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  17. #77
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Veto power is correct. The make up of the permanent security council needs changing though.

    I'd make it:
    US
    Russia
    China
    EU
    India

    Britain and France don't belong, its not 1790. Economically and militarily they are small players now. Give the EU a spot. Then fill in the 5th spot with India, which has about 1/7 of humanity.
    The EU is not a contiguous nation, giving it a seat would be like giving NATO or NAFTA a seat. Both Britain and France remain nuclear powers and still leagues ahead of most other nations, and removing them would be an impossibility anyway. Adding India and Germany at this juncture, maybe Japan, would be the best "reform".
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord Zoranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Then give the 5th slot to Japan.

    Personally I think after this debt bullshit, the EU will have to move to central fiscal governance, and then after that it's not far from being a single country.
    You will never ever succeed in removing any members, you can add some more, at the cost of making it even harder to ever reach a decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Don't see what's wrong with fighting alongside Nazi Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    someone who disagrees with me is simply wrong.

  19. #79
    Legendary! Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Why does it make sense for a country the size of the United States to have the same voting power as a country like Togo or Chad in the UN? I can guarantee without the Security Council countries like the US, Russia, the UK, France, and China would pay even -less- attention to the UN than they do presently.
    I did say every country gets to participate to a degree, didn't I? With that I meant a degree appropriate to the population of any given country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    If anything, what needs to be disbanded is the General Assembly because it perpetuates the belief that all of these small, peripheral countries are of any importance in the international stage.
    Well, if you have a bunch of small countries agreeing on something, they become important.

    Oh, right, I forgot, in your world, might makes right, and since a gazillion people spread out through a dozen countries don't really have the might to do much since they're not united, it must mean their opinion doesn't count. And that really makes perfect sense, seeing as the might of the larger countries is almost never put to use. So it's not even might makes right at this point, it's might-that's-never-gonna-get-used-and-doesn't-really-matter makes right.

    Oh, do I love me some realpolitik stuck-in-the-past people.

  20. #80
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    I think we should reform the veto power. As in, we should kick Russia out of the UN. Then it might actually be a legitimate organization.

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