1. #4021
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    It does not, but without the 4P, you're still losing HP to EF that could have been used on SoTR (hence the reduced AM time and the dps loss).

    I haven't read through Theck's latest posts regarding EF vs SS, but I assume he means EF will have the greatest throughput in all situations. While more throughput is helpful, it's usefulness gets reduced drastically when a lot of it goes into overhealing which is a very real possibility considering the very high SoTR uptimes most paladins will have. As FF said, I don't think EF > SS will always be the case (esp. before 4P) and will vary depending on fight.

    I think it was Nairobi who said it, but Theck's theorycrafting shouldn't be used as gospel but as a tool depending on your play style, raid, progression, etc.
    Totally agree. I recall he mentioned something about overhealing but I'll be honest I didn't quite understand it since all the math scared me.

  2. #4022
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I think it was Nairobi who said it, but Theck's theorycrafting shouldn't be used as gospel but as a tool depending on your play style, raid, progression, etc.
    I'm pretty sure it was Firefly33 who constantly repeats it.

  3. #4023
    Deleted
    Nope, rather sure that was Nairobi.

    Though I totally agrees with it, and Prom, some things needs to be repeated. How often do we tell people to not stack dodge/parry in fix my tanking thread, or trying to max out GCD usage.

    It is the nature of forums, you need to repeat the obvious things over and over again.

  4. #4024
    Oh, I'm not denying that. I must have just thought it was you. Oh well.

  5. #4025
    I actually hate EF and will do what I can to avoid using it until 4P.

  6. #4026
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Totally agree. I recall he mentioned something about overhealing but I'll be honest I didn't quite understand it since all the math scared me.
    The maths flies over my head too but one thing I took from the discussion on his blog was that in dangerous burst situations, overhealing is not an issue. His metric focuses on the chance of a few hits killing you, which usually (impales etc excluded) means you are below full health and so not being overhealed. Hots being wasted in other times of the fight is not such a big deal if they are there for you in the dangerous times. One extreme illustration the discussion was lay on hands: if you could use that every GCD, the overhealing would be awful, but still it would be great for your survivability.

  7. #4027
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    theck hasn't provided his weak aura strings for 5.4 by now, has he?
    since I'm using his "SS actual and estimated absorb value" string (or however you want to call it), it would be nice to see an update for it, as well as a similar string for the new EF.

    if anyone hears something about this, would be nice to post it here. at least on sacredduty I haven't found anything for now.

  8. #4028
    I've seen several Paladins mention the potential viability of the 4pc and the "Harsh Words" glyph? I find this a very interesting idea and a potentially overpowered one, anyone have any more insight on this?

  9. #4029
    Quote Originally Posted by Renerock View Post
    I've seen several Paladins mention the potential viability of the 4pc and the "Harsh Words" glyph? I find this a very interesting idea and a potentially overpowered one, anyone have any more insight on this?
    I know it was fixed with something, I can't 100% remember what since I only heard about it, I think Harsh Words was using BoG stacks or something so WoG was giving you a hefty attack. It won't work anymore though.

  10. #4030
    Deleted
    It was overpowered. It was a 20%+ dps increase and as much as +30% increase in sotr uptime. It was fixed a few weeks back because it was OP and unintended (sadface)

  11. #4031
    At some point on the PTR, you could get the t16 4pc buff at 3+ BoG stacks, use harsh words (which consumed the tier buff, but not the BoG stacks), then SotR to get the tier buff back and harsh words again. You could repeat it over and over as long as you stayed at 3+ BoG stacks. It was rightly fixed though.

    Now Glyph of Word of Glory will be pretty nice when running t16 4pc, as is fishing for DP procs.

  12. #4032
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    theck hasn't provided his weak aura strings for 5.4 by now, has he?
    since I'm using his "SS actual and estimated absorb value" string (or however you want to call it), it would be nice to see an update for it, as well as a similar string for the new EF.

    if anyone hears something about this, would be nice to post it here. at least on sacredduty I haven't found anything for now.
    Looking at his pastebin, he hasn't updated it recently (he has one from Aug 28th, but it doesn't contain the changes he recently said he was going to make, that will give some indication of current HoPo+BoG+Vengeance for EF vs currently ticking EF) but keep an eye out. I'd expect he'll also have a blog about it in the near future, but you never know (and even if he does, the pastebin will likely get updated first)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  13. #4033
    So i'm going to be hitting SoO with my guild tonight. After reading a few pages of this post I've started to implement the changes suggested for 5.4. However I have a few questions before tonight. Namely the value of the tanking meta and the nerf to the dps cloaks/meta procs. I've pretty much accepted that the dps stats on the legy cloak are the way to go. However with the meta being "buffed" and the dps one being hit with a 40% nerf, i'm almost considering switching to it (low cost, good for progression till farm).

    Oh and i almost forgot, before tier 16 4 set, what glyph are we generally accepting as the replacement for battle healer?

    Thoughts please?
    Last edited by Cheekun; 2013-09-10 at 09:59 PM.
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  14. #4034
    Yes, switch to the tank meta. Go back a few pages in this thread to see discussion on the glyphs.

  15. #4035
    Deleted
    Anyone remember in what page are the lengthy discussion over which cloak to take?

    I'm switching to tank meta gem but still not convinced about the cloak but I was told that there were some changes that made the tank one the best option?

    Anyway, don't want to cause repetition so if anyone could point me to about the right page, I'll be happy to go look.

    Been off a couple weeks and missed all the iterations.

    Also, has anyone made a BiS gear sheet somewhere?

    I feelz lazy.

  16. #4036
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Anyone remember in what page are the lengthy discussion over which cloak to take?

    I'm switching to tank meta gem but still not convinced about the cloak but I was told that there were some changes that made the tank one the best option?

    Anyway, don't want to cause repetition so if anyone could point me to about the right page, I'll be happy to go look.

    Been off a couple weeks and missed all the iterations.

    Also, has anyone made a BiS gear sheet somewhere?

    I feelz lazy.
    I don't know exactly what page this long discussion is on, but i can give you the TLDR version.

    The dps cloak is generally worth going for strictly based on stats.

    The tanking cloak is essentially an old designed Ardent Defender (it procs to save your life). But because of its long cooldown and the tanking cloak's horrible stats, the dps cloak is generally better.

    The real meat of the discussion is that the tanking cloak is only really worth taking if it cheeses the fight in such a way as to make it considerably easier. Furthermore, most tanks agree that the fights aren't really designed around needing the cloak in the first place (bosses aren't going to OHKO you without any warning) so a good paladin will always be able to buffer the damage INC (SoTR etc), making the proc effectively wasted.

    Dps stats help you all of the time, throughout the whole fight. The tanking cloak is only useful if you make a huge mistake (avoidable) so your essentially getting a cloak with two terrible stats and a realtively useless effect that only gets used once every two minutes (max uptime) assuming you make a critical error every two minutes (isn't going to happen).

    Maybe not so much TLDR but this is what i recall from that convo.
    Last edited by Cheekun; 2013-09-10 at 11:36 PM.
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  17. #4037
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    I actually hate EF and will do what I can to avoid using it until 4P.
    After doing SoO a bit tonight..........I take this back.

  18. #4038
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    SW is more advanced than I think he's capable of, and will yield even less results than DP. Have him stick with HA.
    This.. uh.. kinda sounds like HA is the inferior choice, but easier to manage.. I've been using HA all this time, because I don't really like random chances.. but is SW really much better so that it's worth switching?

  19. #4039
    Bloodsail Admiral Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    This.. uh.. kinda sounds like HA is the inferior choice, but easier to manage.. I've been using HA all this time, because I don't really like random chances.. but is SW really much better so that it's worth switching?
    SW got nicely buffed in patch (2 HP for J instead of 1 while AW is up), so I can expect it to pull ahead of HA.

  20. #4040
    Dreadlord Captainn's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice the vengeance nerf hitting us kind of hard?


    I didnt break over 150k vengeance until Galakras came down. Just felt weird compared to the giant jump in vengeance from t14 heroics to t15 normals

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