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  1. #1101
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    WoW is just old. The playerbase changed, which is only natural. It's not about casuals or pros or whatever people play the game... we are all human and we just can't take playing a game for such a long time. The gamplay is the same old thing it was the last 8, almost 9 now, years.
    -Its graphics barely advanced (nope, not even the new player models will change this fact, if they not bring a WHOLE set of new animations... like casters with a staff actually holding that thing in their hands while casting etc.)
    -the fight mechanics never really changed (this is probably the worst thing of all. Because autoattack+ability spam isn't as fun in 2013 as it was in 2004.)
    -the storytelling is the only thing that got better over the time.

    People may have instincts similar to animals, and may be psychological influenced like them, but only a small portion of them can be persuaded to play the same game for such a long period.

    I don't say WoW is bad, it's just past it's prime and time. It was a phenomenon and should be handled with the respect it deserves. Maybe that's the reason the Devs are too shy to use their manpower and budget to take new directions. But if nothing changes it will slowly, very slowly come near death, but being ruined and die? Hardly. Before that it will be F2P and at least a couple of million school kids will have their turn with it over the next decade, trust that. WoW may very well endure into the late 2020s or even 2030s, we won't know how fast hardware will advance. People are still playing Pong, Pac-Man and Tetris. Maybe you will sit in the train in 20 years, bored, and switch on your internet connected brain chip for a quick heroic dungeon with your mental interface <,<
    WoW did hit the world, it hit it harder than most games, maybe even all of them. It won't die for decades and its idea and story will last even longer. The same as Super Mario and others will be there in decades too.

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    WoW is just old. The playerbase changed, which is only natural. It's not about casuals or pros or whatever people play the game... we are all human and we just can't take playing a game for such a long time. The gamplay is the same old thing it was the last 8, almost 9 now, years.
    -Its graphics barely advanced (nope, not even the new player models will change this fact, if they not bring a WHOLE set of new animations... like casters with a staff actually holding that thing in their hands while casting etc.)
    -the fight mechanics never really changed (this is probably the worst thing of all. Because autoattack+ability spam isn't as fun in 2013 as it was in 2004.)
    -the storytelling is the only thing that got better over the time.

    People may have instincts similar to animals, and may be psychological influenced like them, but only a small portion of them can be persuaded to play the same game for such a long period.

    I don't say WoW is bad, it's just past it's prime and time. It was a phenomenon and should be handled with the respect it deserves. Maybe that's the reason the Devs are too shy to use their manpower and budget to take new directions. But if nothing changes it will slowly, very slowly come near death, but being ruined and die? Hardly. Before that it will be F2P and at least a couple of million school kids will have their turn with it over the next decade, trust that. WoW may very well endure into the late 2020s or even 2030s, we won't know how fast hardware will advance. People are still playing Pong, Pac-Man and Tetris. Maybe you will sit in the train in 20 years, bored, and switch on your internet connected brain chip for a quick heroic dungeon with your mental interface <,<
    WoW did hit the world, it hit it harder than most games, maybe even all of them. It won't die for decades and its idea and story will last even longer. The same as Super Mario and others will be there in decades too.
    there are alot of points there that i can agree with. age is a factor. but its not as big as a factor as you would believe. simply because nothing else out there competes with what wow offers. mostly from a polished point of view. the fact is if blizzard wanted to stay on top.. they would just need to update the game. even if they scrapped the old world completely and destroyed everything in a massive endgame event then at midnight switched over to a new azeroth with updated graphics/world/modern engine.. i would be perfectly okay with that. just let us retain our characters (hell reset em to level 1 if you need to.. they do the same every expansion.. we have to gain 5-10 levels to be relevant again.. im okay with going back to level 1 for a whole new world to re-explore)

    there are plenty of ways blizzard can improve.. the question comes down to what are they willing to do to improve. you have the largest mmo playerbase (paying) stay how you are and bleed todeath or get up and change something.. even if its major. hell people may come back with a major shift to the world. i would rather see this than a slow death. (WoW 2.0)

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    LOL. WoW was always the "causal" game. It was EQ lite. The hardcore used to turn their noses up at WoW. But when the other hardcore MMOs slowly went into decline, these hardcores hopped into WoW. It's been downhill ever since.
    How blind can someone be? What does it matter that WoW was always 'casual' compared to other games? That doesn't mean it needs to go full blown casual like it has since Cata.

  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Software is not old people. While the devs are apparently convinced the game can no longer undergo a revolution this is not some fact of software development. It's simple a matter of how much time and money and resources they want to put into it. Conceivably if they wished they could make world of warcraft the greatest fishing emulator ever.

    While I agree the drop in subscription is not an attribute of any silly regressive notions about what the game "was" I do not subscribe to the belief that it's simple game over and the devs can do little. Ultimately they are indeed responsible. Saying the game is old is a massive cop out and frankly it's the developers who make it feel old. They decide to focus on it's oldest elements and regress the game painfully in so many ways.
    Every game has a "lifespan", obviously some will still play it, but when I refer to a game actually being dead I mean it having an insignificant number of players.

    Sure you can completely evolve the game, the graphics, the engine, the focus, but at some point it makes more sense to simply create either a sequel or a replacement (especially when it comes to a new engine) and leave the niche market in the previous version.

  5. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post

    Sure you can completely evolve the game, the graphics, the engine, the focus, but at some point it makes more sense to simply create either a sequel or a replacement (especially when it comes to a new engine) and leave the niche market in the previous version.

    Right I agree. That doesn't mean the game CAN'T revolutionize itself by any definition of the word CAN'T. It simple means it's uneconomical to do so. Ultimately if the developers are interested in retaining the business from the people who left then they better bring a product to market that will do that. Either redesign wow or make a new game. Either way their is no CAN'T in all of this.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    How blind can someone be? What does it matter that WoW was always 'casual' compared to other games? That doesn't mean it needs to go full blown casual like it has since Cata.

    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.
    bait and switch.. except this time the players revolted and bolted at the switch.. sure some loved it.. but were talking the majority.. and they are speaking with thier wallets and leaving.

  8. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Thats the problem, its the other way around. You are being the blind one here.

    WoW was getting consistently more casual friendly UNTILL Cata. Vanilla was more casual than anything else in the market, TBC was more casual than Vanilla, WotLK more casual than TBC.

    THEN Blizzard changed direction and tried to make Cata more hardcore with the difficulty up in dungeons, and then they tried making MoP more hardcore reintroducing the long grinds and getting the difficulty of raids even higher.

    It is there, when Blizzard tried to cater to tha hardcore that cried that WotLK was too casual when they broke the game.

    Cataclysm and MoP were NOT made for casuals. They are products oriented to the HARDCORE. And that's the main reason of their complete failure.
    It jumped the shark the minute the developer took the phrase "welfare epic" seriously.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1109
    Deleted
    Wow isnt ruined, its what YOU make of it

    If you like raiding, there is a whole span of different types to do, if you like leveling there are many types of races and classes to enjoy

    It isnt ruined, it is changed and sometimes change is needed
    Last edited by mmocf87b51648a; 2013-09-11 at 04:22 PM.

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    They might and often do omit things, but never actually lie.
    They did say the wsg gy change in 4.1 was to end GY camping, while it quite obviously was actually expected to make it easier than ever by removed escape options upon rezzing. If this isn't a lie, then there are some bafflingly clueless/stupid/misled/lost/confused people making decisions about this game.
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  11. #1111
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    there are alot of points there that i can agree with. age is a factor. but its not as big as a factor as you would believe. simply because nothing else out there competes with what wow offers. mostly from a polished point of view. the fact is if blizzard wanted to stay on top.. they would just need to update the game. even if they scrapped the old world completely and destroyed everything in a massive endgame event then at midnight switched over to a new azeroth with updated graphics/world/modern engine.. i would be perfectly okay with that. just let us retain our characters (hell reset em to level 1 if you need to.. they do the same every expansion.. we have to gain 5-10 levels to be relevant again.. im okay with going back to level 1 for a whole new world to re-explore)

    there are plenty of ways blizzard can improve.. the question comes down to what are they willing to do to improve. you have the largest mmo playerbase (paying) stay how you are and bleed todeath or get up and change something.. even if its major. hell people may come back with a major shift to the world. i would rather see this than a slow death. (WoW 2.0)
    Yeah but even if there are no other games on the market, then people just won't play another mmo. I doubt that more than 25 % of all ex long time WoW players now play another mmo at the moment.

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    They did say the wsg gy change in 4.1 was to end GY camping, while it quite obviously was actually expected to make it easier than ever by removed escape options upon rezzing. If this isn't a lie, then there are some bafflingly clueless/stupid/misled/lost/confused people making decisions about this game.
    You seem to have hard time grasping the difference between intended change and actual resulted change, and how neither of those mean somebody is lying.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  13. #1113
    You guys really need to stop beating this anti-casual drum. Casuals are not going anywhere, they are the majority of the game (its what makes you special remember?) and content has to be made for them. It just so happens that right now they make lots of raid content and then nerf it so casuals can consume it but you get lots of raid content in trade. If you remove this nerfed version of raiding then you loose lots of raid content since the casuals pay the bills and content will be diverted from raiding to them (5 mans, scenarios, most likely lots of scenarios).

    Also, one day INEVITABLY the hardcore of today will become the casual, unless you are entirely sheltered and cut off from the real world then you will become casual.

    As far as feeling special goes, you should be able to feel special about your own achievements without worrying about what the casuals have achieved. Killing Garrosh on Heroic is still the primo achievement no matter what a casual has done in LFR. "Oh my god I just killed Garrosh in LFR!" - Said no one EVER.
    An Indy Car driver doesn't care what an amateur on a dirt track is doing, an NBA player doesn't care what some kids in a basketball court are doing, an Award winning pianist doesn't care what a 4th grader is doing in a church recital and a President of a country doesn't care what a President of the senior class is doing. If you can't feel special based on your own accomplishments without the adoration of the non-hardcore population (which you never really had, it was all in your head.) then your accomplishments are hollow in that they mean nothing to you personally.

    Casuals are going no where, they are the base. Without a base you have no pinnacle. LFR is going no where, Blizzard already said so and its being baked into the next expansion just like it was for mop. Get over the hate, its doing you no good at all.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-09-11 at 05:01 PM.

  14. #1114
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    You seem to have hard time grasping the difference between intended change and actual resulted change, and how neither of those mean somebody is lying.
    just for the record, I do not respond to vesselblah on threads, and suggest readers look at the 4.1 gy change, look at the blue post, and draw their own conclusions about who understands what and the motives of the other party in this exchange (also look at both of our posting histories, it should prove illuminating).

    I maintain that taking away multiple (3) routes away from GY, and leaving rezzers with only one (1) route, guaranteed camping would be easier than ever. It seems almost certain blizzard understood this too. There was a long thread pre-4.1 on mmo about it.

    Or you can believe vesselblah.
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  15. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    just for the record, I do not respond to vesselblah on threads, and suggest readers look at the 4.1 gy change, look at the blue post, and draw their own conclusions about who understands what and the motives of the other party in this exchange (also look at both of our posting histories, it should prove illuminating).

    I maintain that taking away multiple (3) routes away from GY, and leaving rezzers with only one (1) route, guaranteed camping would be easier than ever. It seems almost certain blizzard understood this too. There was a long thread pre-4.1 on mmo about it.

    Or you can believe vesselblah.
    I actually think vesseblah is correct but in actuality it's even worse than saying that they were lying. It was just gross incompetence on their part.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I actually think vesseblah is correct but in actuality it's even worse than saying that they were lying. It was just gross incompetence on their part.
    "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -- Jon Clarke's First Law
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You guys really need to stop beating this anti-casual drum. Casuals are not going anywhere, they are the majority of the game (its what makes you special remember?) and content has to be made for them. It just so happens that right now they make lots of raid content and then nerf it so casuals can consume it but you get lots of raid content in trade. If you remove this nerfed version of raiding then you loose lots of raid content since the casuals pay the bills and content will be diverted from raiding to them (5 mans, scenarios, most likely lots of scenarios).

    Also, one day INEVITABLY the hardcore of today will become the casual, unless you are entirely sheltered and cut off from the real world then you will become casual.

    As far as feeling special goes, you should be able to feel special about your own achievements without worrying about what the casuals have achieved. Killing Garrosh on Heroic is still the primo achievement no matter what a casual has done in LFR. "Oh my god I just killed Garrosh in LFR!" - Said no one EVER.
    An Indy Car driver doesn't care what an amateur on a dirt track is doing, an NBA player doesn't care what some kids in a basketball court are doing, an Award winning pianist doesn't care what a 4th grader is doing in a church recital and a President of a country doesn't care what a President of the senior class is doing. If you can't feel special based on your own accomplishments without the adoration of the non-hardcore population (which you never really had, it was all in your head.) then your accomplishments are hollow in that they mean nothing to you personally.

    Casuals are going no where, they are the base. Without a base you have no pinnacle. LFR is going no where, Blizzard already said so and its being baked into the next expansion just like it was for mop. Get over the hate, its doing you no good at all.
    Well said deadman. This has to be the best post in the thread.

  18. #1118
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." -- Jon Clarke's First Law
    HAH I had never heard that variation on ac clarke.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 05:30 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    Dragon Soul was obviously not designed with LFR in mind. The production value of the newer raids went up by a huge margin with MoP, which is because of the success of Dragon Soul LFR, which was only created as a test run. Dragon Soul's lack of quality was because of Blizzard spreading its resources too thin by rebuilding Azeroth (lack of content during the entire expansion was very, very apparent from start to finish), as well as releasing 3 new Dungeons in the same patch.

    Blaming LFR for the quality of Dragon Soul is the most illogical, non-sensical, and outright ignorant thing you could say.

    The changes in the world with Cata happened a year before DS was released - DS for me personally, symbolizes the lack of creativity and laziness that has been overcoming blizz in a lot of aspects of the game lately, at the same time, LFR was released, I dont' think it's a coincidence lol. Also, 2 of those dungeons used completely re-hased content too (although end time I thought was kinda cool). Beyond that, my point is, with blizz having much more money now on deck then they have in the past, saying that all of the sudden, they lack resources to make raids is a bit silly.

  20. #1120
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    1) The game is not "ruined".

    2) How do you define a casual player ? Players from top world guilds play less than the pseudo-good players from an unknow guild raiding 5 days a week during months and struggling on the same hardcore encounters.

    3) Players who tend to ruin the game are, for the majority, hardcore players (by the time they put into the game), but bad as hell, and who can't stand the fact that players with less time in the game can almost reach the same gear level.

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