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  1. #1141
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's a fairy tale. He isn't right. The dragon on the box or the lich king on the box sold more than raiding ever did. In fact you could make a pretty good argument that the ultra focus on raiding actually drove people away from the game. Like lots of people who couldn't commit to it or didn't like the scene and got fucked over because it's ultimately all the game lead to. Even if it had some mythical power to compel a handful of people to play the game, it's driven far more players away from it and cost them alot more subs than it's ever gained them.

    The problem is that some folks who raid cannot conceptualize a universe where raiding either doesn't exist or isn't the center of that universe. Since they (and in their defense the developers to) think that it really is the center of the universe and ought to be what everyone aspires to it becomes VERY hard for them to understand why people wouldn't be lured by it and VERY easy to come up with a narrative that puts raiding as the games biggest selling draw.
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for. SWTOR and GW2 are both great games before you hit level cap. But SWTOR and GW2 lost a lot of customers when people reached level cap and main reason is "there is not enough to do". WoW's end game (raiding) is what keeps WoW rolling.

    Granted, raiding isn't the only thing (and it doesn't have to be), but it is the main draw of WoW for peple to stay. I can tell you without raiding, there will not be a subscription based wow. Blizzard has been playing with other ideas to keep people playing and let's see some of these ideas:

    1. pet battle
    2. dailies
    3. pet/mount/title farming

    Other than these, players simply consume contents faster than what Blizzard can put out. And I don't think any of those can keep players paying 15 a month. Another choice is to put out new compelling content very rapidly so players feel each patch is new and fresh and stay subbed. This is possible but I think this model is much harder to maintain compared to the raiding model.

    MMO genre as a whole, no company has been able to come up with another end game activity to keep players paying 15 a month so raiding is here to stay. I think eve online has some pretty cool crafting system so players mostly pvp + making things for end game. But again, eve online is no where close to the scale of WoW. If WoW does go F2P then it's very possible that WoW would stop producing raids (or change payment model so you pay to have access to raiding).
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  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You see that cool elf on the box. Explained. It's a mix of things but quite honestly the cover art on the box had more to do with it then raiding.


    So if I put a night elf on a box and sold it to the public, I'd be a millionaire then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for. SWTOR and GW2 are both great games before you hit level cap. But SWTOR and GW2 lost a lot of customers when people reached level cap and main reason is "there is not enough to do".


    Amen! 10 chars

  3. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urti View Post
    The rarest spawn in the whole game is apparently a player who is enjoying themselves....
    It's a sad realization that this is completely true too..

  4. #1144
    the barrier to get into raiding was raised way to high since cata. from there onwards the difficulty has steadily climbed. the only person this benifits is the experianced raider. there is no room for newer raiders they are squeezed out due to the non-tolerance of the experianced raider and the caustic attitudes they bring to a raid when they see someone under performing.

    as people run out of things to do or ways to improve they will quit out of frustration. once that starts you get an empty friends list .. then an empty guild.. good luck finding a new guild not full of arrogent i use to HC assholes that think gods gift of raiding was ment strictly for them.. (what most failed to mention were they were just the normals who didnt do anything but show up on farm days..)

    We litterally had a guy in our guild who went off joined a HC guild who was in firelands.. they had over 50% of the instance on farm. he would be strangely absent on any type of progression content that night for them but on the farm nights.. he was there bright and early.. and when he came back.. wow what an ass.. our guild wasnt good enough everyone sucked and he was a HC player.. it was quite funny when our guild leader yelled at him to shut his mouth that he was carried through content and that doesnt make him HC in anyway. (he raged gquit and then lost his HC guild 2 weeks later) .. this has been the typical experiance from hardcore players that normals have seen. and you guys think people want to join that?????

  5. #1145
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    As a subscription based game, raiding is a lot more important than you give it credit for.
    No I give it exactly the credit it's due. I just don't subscribe to the fairy tale that wows end game (raiding) is what keeps it going when the vast overwhelming majority of people were not actually raiding and when given an alternative that rewarded as well they chose the alternative. Hell they'll take the LFR alternative over normal raiding. Given how low the participation rates werein the past I feel it's most of you who give it far to much. As for the items you list you notice that most have generally awarded little to no character progression certainly not enough to compete with raiding once again.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I give it exactly the credit it's due. I just don't subscribe to the fairy tale that wows end game (raiding) is what keeps it going when the vast overwhelming majority of people were not actually raiding and when given an alternative that rewarded as well they chose the alternative. Given how low the participation rates were I feel it's most of you who give it far to much. As for the items you list you notice that most have generally awarded little to no character progression certainly not enough to compete with raiding once again.
    somewhat agre here.. blizzard has not let anything compete with raiding except for the extreame end of pvp. you cant get gear nearly as good as the HC raiders. even crafted gear for a given patch normally requires materials you cant obtain outside of raiding.. (and no you cant buy them with valor points either)

  7. #1147
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    So if I put a night elf on a box and sold it to the public, I'd be a millionaire then?
    I should have bolded the part where I said "it's a mix of tings but quite honestly the cover art had more to do with it then raiding" which is true. Nuance is also not taught in schools these days.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    somewhat agre here.. blizzard has not let anything compete with raiding except for the extreame end of pvp. you cant get get nearly as good as the HC raiders. even crafted gear for a given patch normally requires materials you cant obtain outside of raiding.. (and no you cant buy them with valor points either)
    and it's even worse in mists where valor rewards have taken a back seat and don't even exist in this patch. It's fucking stupid what do they expect people to do? Well they expect people to raid or consume raid content at any rate. Exactly because raids and raiding content ENTERTAINED NOBODY IN THE PAST and now they think it will serve as a catch all to entertain everybody. My hope is that they realize it's a grave mistake they've made.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 06:46 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1148
    your never going to get the HC players to admit anything is wrong. life is peachy.. cause thier guild can do HC so can yours.. what they fail to mention is that the top 5 guilds on the server.. after 8 years.. has the best players.. and its unlikly to change anytime soon. overtime players with the time and ability will gravitate to the best guilds. im sure almost everyone here can name at least 2 or 3 of the top guilds on their server.. tell me something.. why dont they have problems recruiting?? heres a clue.. thier the best on their server... (getting quality players is a different issue).

    they have long gotten rid of the clueless and incapable. Some of us though. perfer to play with family and friends.. as such the majority of guilds below your HC guilds are made of of these types of players.. sure 2-3 (sometimes more) might be capable of HC play.. but they would have to leave behind everyone they know because their are a few in the guild who simply cant play at the level they can.. and these types of guilds make up WAY more of the raiding base than all the HC guilds combined. so if the game is being taylored for the 2-3 guilds at the top.. it sends a message to the rest .. so sorry.. so sad.. but look at all the shiney gear they are wearing and be happy... for them...
    I have always been a fan of HC guilds should get MORE loot.. (with unique HC bosses dropping unique gear) not better quality.. i was of the same opinion back when Wrath had 10/25.
    that being said.. i thought the death buff that you recieved in LFR would have been a great raid saver back in cataclysm and normal modes. i still think it should be used with maybe a timer per boss that gives extra loot so if you sit there and go through your 5th wipe.. well.. you loose the extra loot (kind of a get better thing)

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    your never going to get the HC players to admit anything is wrong. life is peachy.. cause thier guild can do HC so can yours.. what they fail to mention is that the top 5 guilds on the server.. after 8 years.. has the best players.. and its unlikly to change anytime soon. overtime players with the time and ability will gravitate to the best guilds. im sure almost everyone here can name at least 2 or 3 of the top guilds on their server.. tell me something.. why dont they have problems recruiting?? heres a clue.. thier the best on their server... (getting quality players is a different issue).
    The sad thing is that the top guilds on our server have been very unstable be cause it's hard to even get a full raid off on low-progression servers. Even our top guilds can't retain a stable base and many of them have even tried relocating to higher progression servers for the sake of a bigger recruiting pool. More often than not, however, they die shortly after the relocation. Kind of sad.

  10. #1150
    if low pop servers cant field a single topend guild then that just shows how bad things have gotten in terms of difficulty. im sorry the top end players need to realize that they have a team full of players who are like them or capable of following orders like them. its like showing up at a playground with championship college team or nba team and then saying everything is just fine when they win the 20th scrim game in a row.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I give it exactly the credit it's due. I just don't subscribe to the fairy tale that wows end game (raiding) is what keeps it going when the vast overwhelming majority of people were not actually raiding and when given an alternative that rewarded as well they chose the alternative. Given how low the participation rates were I feel it's most of you who give it far to much. As for the items you list you notice that most have generally awarded little to no character progression certainly not enough to compete with raiding once again.
    Let's go over some things to what makes gear upgrades feel good and fun and thus driving people to pay 15 a month:

    1. You feel your power increasing when you can kill things faster
    2. An obstacle that you could not beat before is now possible
    3. Perhaps you enjoy the gear's look
    4. You do things that you think is fun while getting new gears
    5. There is enough activities to do so you aren't out of content

    Raids match these points while making each iteration feel new and fresh. Sadly to say, there is currently no other system that provide a new and fresh experience while obtaining gear patch after patch. How many NPCs do you think you would kill before you give up and say "there are other F2P games that provide this exact experience so why am I paying 15 a month" (aka D3). How many dailies, pet battles, area explorations do you think you will pay 15 a month for and how fast do you expect new content to come out (think Skyrim)? I cannot speak for 7 million+ players who are willing to pay 15 bux every month when there are a large array of cheaper games out there. But my guess is the successful raiding game, while matching the above points, is what makes people shelling out 15 month after month. If you don't believe raiding is the lure, what do you think is the factor(s) that keep players paying?

    Again, I am not saying raiding IS the only thing. Afterall, 2nd life was really successful without raiding as well (dunno about them now). But fact is subscription based MMORPG genre as a whole has not found a sustainable system as of yet apart from raiding. It is totally possible for a company to come up with an idea that revolutionizes MMORPG genre alltogether. But I am fairly confident that company will not be Blizzard since it is very difficult to think outside of a rather successful box.
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  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I should have bolded the part where I said "it's a mix of tings but quite honestly the cover art had more to do with it then raiding" which is true. Nuance is also not taught in schools these days.

    - - - Updated - - -



    and it's even worse in mists where valor rewards have taken a back seat and don't even exist in this patch. It's fucking stupid what do they expect people to do? Well they expect people to raid or consume raid content at any rate. Exactly because raids and raiding content ENTERTAINED NOBODY IN THE PAST and now they think it will serve as a catch all to entertain everybody. My hope is that they realize it's a grave mistake they've made.

    Perhaps you bought the game because of the night elf on the cover, but I can tell you that there's a pretty big fan base for blizzard and their name has gotten by on word of mouth for almost 2 decades now. Stuff like raiding is *why* blizzard gets word of mouth publicity from fans, they were (not so much now) known for going the extra mile in every game. It's changed quite a bit over the last year or so with the "re-use content to save money" thing, but back in the day, it was dramatically different.


    As for raid gear being better than other gear, PvP gear always had an edge until recently, minus sometimes a weird set combination, trinket, or legendary weapon. The reason why raid gear is better than what you see in dungeons should be pretty self explanatory.

  13. #1153
    Oh please, the big rush of Blizzard fanboys that came into WoW when it launched didn't even know what a "tank" was at first. Raids are some stank bullshit left over from EverQuest that only persist because the devs were EverQuest dorks back in the day.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    your never going to get the HC players to admit anything is wrong. life is peachy.. cause thier guild can do HC so can yours.. what they fail to mention is that the top 5 guilds on the server.. after 8 years.. has the best players.. and its unlikly to change anytime soon. overtime players with the time and ability will gravitate to the best guilds. im sure almost everyone here can name at least 2 or 3 of the top guilds on their server.. tell me something.. why dont they have problems recruiting?? heres a clue.. thier the best on their server... (getting quality players is a different issue).

    they have long gotten rid of the clueless and incapable. Some of us though. perfer to play with family and friends.. as such the majority of guilds below your HC guilds are made of of these types of players.. sure 2-3 (sometimes more) might be capable of HC play.. but they would have to leave behind everyone they know because their are a few in the guild who simply cant play at the level they can.. and these types of guilds make up WAY more of the raiding base than all the HC guilds combined. so if the game is being taylored for the 2-3 guilds at the top.. it sends a message to the rest .. so sorry.. so sad.. but look at all the shiney gear they are wearing and be happy... for them...
    I have always been a fan of HC guilds should get MORE loot.. (with unique HC bosses dropping unique gear) not better quality.. i was of the same opinion back when Wrath had 10/25.
    that being said.. i thought the death buff that you recieved in LFR would have been a great raid saver back in cataclysm and normal modes. i still think it should be used with maybe a timer per boss that gives extra loot so if you sit there and go through your 5th wipe.. well.. you loose the extra loot (kind of a get better thing)

    I can agree with a lot of your points here, it is difficult for guys that want to break into raiding to actually be able to do it, and there are times where people do say "this was easy for me so it should be easy for you to do". There's a lot of reasons for that though, wow in the present provides no real challenge to people leveling up, the stuff that used to was nerfed into oblivion. Stuff like cc'ing before pulls, teaming up for quests, the risk of dying, all has been eliminated (along with a lot of other stuff like socializing) - while that stuff isn't going to make anyone the perfect raider, it demonstrates that in certain levels of the game, you need to plan things out, coordinate, and put in some effort. Now people get from 1 to 90 with almost no hassle during the grind, and go through LFD and LFR and have the same experience, then they get to raiding and it's like a completely different game. I'm not saying make everything impossibly hard, but blizz took out way too many challenges and made wow look like a much different game than it is at max level.


    And I don't think wiping in raids, or not even being able to get into raids makes someone a "loser", casuals put that mentality on themselves. You can still have a lot of fun in the game without raiding, at least I and many others did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Oh please, the big rush of Blizzard fanboys that came into WoW when it launched didn't even know what a "tank" was at first. Raids are some stank bullshit left over from EverQuest that only persist because the devs were EverQuest dorks back in the day.

    If WoW didn't have stuff like forming up with teammates, taking on big challenges, going into raids, battle grounds, world pvp, the game wouldn't be around today I bet. And the word tank was used long before wow, if you played wc3 or a lot of other games, you'd know that.

  15. #1155
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Let's go over some things to what makes gear upgrades feel good and fun and thus driving people to pay 15 a month:

    1. You feel your power increasing when you can kill things faster
    2. An obstacle that you could not beat before is now possible
    3. Perhaps you enjoy the gear's look
    4. You do things that you think is fun while getting new gears
    5. There is enough activities to do so you aren't out of content

    Raids match these points while making each iteration feel new and fresh. Sadly to say, there is currently no other system that provide a new and fresh experience while obtaining gear patch after patch. How many NPCs do you think you would kill before you give up and say "there are other F2P games that provide this exact experience so why am I paying 15 a month" (aka D3). How many dailies, pet battles, area explorations do you think you will pay 15 a month for and how fast do you expect new content to come out (think Skyrim)? I cannot speak for 7 million+ players who are willing to pay 15 bux every month when there are a large array of cheaper games out there. But my guess is the successful raiding game, while matching the above points, is what makes people shelling out 15 month after month. If you don't believe raiding is the lure, what do you think is the factor(s) that keep players paying?

    Again, I am not saying raiding IS the only thing. Afterall, 2nd life was really successful without raiding as well (dunno about them now). But fact is subscription based MMORPG genre as a whole has not found a sustainable system as of yet apart from raiding. It is totally possible for a company to come up with an idea that revolutionizes MMORPG genre alltogether. But I am fairly confident that company will not be Blizzard since it is very difficult to think outside of a rather successful box.
    Dungeons also match all those points. I disagree about each iteration feeling new and fresh. It feels terrible stale and old. Precisely because of the focus on the raiding.

    What do I believe the lure is? Well it's multifaceted obviously but the FANTASY that content which so few people historically participated in is also somehow magically responsible for entertaining and keeping those player subscribed may as well be the tooth fairy. Considering people did everything they could to get out of raiding (notice in cataclysm people gearing about patches not bosses) and the only current success of raiding in terms of participation is in lfr (where people are abandoning normal raids in favor of the far more accessible lfr) it strikes me as absolutely LUDICROUS to claim the success of the game is based on raids or that raids had any big impact. It was marginal at best. The elf on the box had far more to do with attracting players and lvling to 60 or 70 kept them far more entertained for far longer in vanilla and tbc than any raiding did. It's not I who attributes to little of the success of wow to raiding. Its' you who attributes far to much to it's success. Which is nothing new. It's always been that way. Especially among raiders who's egos and vanity is often quite enormous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Oh please, the big rush of Blizzard fanboys that came into WoW when it launched didn't even know what a "tank" was at first. Raids are some stank bullshit left over from EverQuest that only persist because the devs were EverQuest dorks back in the day.
    Essentially this. Raids only exist because the developers are ex EQ players and they continue to be the only serious form of end game because the developers are bereft of any imagination or creativity to do anything more. They are stuck 10 years in the past.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Perhaps you bought the game because of the night elf on the cover, but I can tell you that there's a pretty big fan base for blizzard and their name has gotten by on word of mouth for almost 2 decades now. Stuff like raiding is *why* blizzard gets word of mouth publicity from fans, they were (not so much now) known for going the extra mile in every game. It's changed quite a bit over the last year or so with the "re-use content to save money" thing, but back in the day, it was dramatically different.


    As for raid gear being better than other gear, PvP gear always had an edge until recently, minus sometimes a weird set combination, trinket, or legendary weapon. The reason why raid gear is better than what you see in dungeons should be pretty self explanatory.
    So here we go once again. We have what YOU can tell me and we have the FACT that raiding has historically had very low participation. I don't understand why you keep feeling the need to bring up your experience when you KNOW it's anecdotal and not universal in the slightest. When it's not representative of anything outside of your narrow view. Oh wait that must be it. Never mind. Carry on.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 07:51 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So here we go once again. We have what YOU can tell me and we have the FACT that raiding has historically had very low participation. I don't understand why you keep feeling the need to bring up your experience when you KNOW it's anecdotal and not universal in the slightest. When it's not representative of anything outside of your narrow view. Oh wait that must be it. Never mind. Carry on.

    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata? Your facts are based on your opinion, whether you want to admit it or not. You say I'm bringing up my own experience, but again, if anyone here has an experience where they never raided, speak up and let's hear it. We always see people on these forums saying they are "casual", now it's gut check time lol. Also, if wow didn't have raiding, it's been established that players would be bored pretty fast, just look at other games on the market right now. If there's not much of a reason to hit max level, how many will stick around?

  17. #1157
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata? Your facts are based on your opinion, whether you want to admit it or not. You say I'm bringing up my own experience, but again, if anyone here has an experience where they never raided, speak up and let's hear it. We always see people on these forums saying they are "casual", now it's gut check time lol. Also, if wow didn't have raiding, it's been established that players would be bored pretty fast, just look at other games on the market right now. If there's not much of a reason to hit max level, how many will stick around?
    No they are not my opinion they are based on the statements made by the developers themselves. Not my opinion. THEIR DATA AND THEIR FACTS. It is exactly the precise reason you see LFR created. See you don't get it your asking people on a forum who are primarily raiders or ex raiders who come to the forum. It's a sample bias in the same way your narrow view of your circle of people is the exact same bias.

    It's not established that if wow didn't have raiding it would be pretty boring because we can safely assume that the developers wouldn't just sit on their hands and asses not making raids and saying "hey guys we got nothin". We can safely assume that they would be making SOMETHING ELSE THAT WASN'T RAIDING. I mean all of that is irellvant the simple fact is that end game for most players wasn't raiding prior to lfr especially. End game for most players for years was hitting lvl 60 or 70 and then quitting or lvling alts or pvping or running a scant few heroic dungeons (more so this after lfd was introduced). NONE OF IT WAS RAIDING. Not at least until wotlk with far more accessible 10 mans and even then it wasn't as much as lfr. How many stuck around? Well not many they left but more came back and the game has had an incredible churn of subscribers. Which is still ultimately to say RAIDING HAD VERY LITTLE impact on keeping players subscribed because it entertained so few of them. I don't know how else to put it but you live in a fantasy.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 07:58 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    just for the record, I do not respond to vesselblah on threads, and suggest readers look at the 4.1 gy change, look at the blue post, and draw their own conclusions about who understands what and the motives of the other party in this exchange (also look at both of our posting histories, it should prove illuminating).
    I'm not gonna bother looking into your posting history, but if it's anything like the above example you never bother to read what you're replying to and can't do basic deduction.

    I never said Blizz didn't fail with that change, what I am saying is that they didn't fail it on purpose. There's pretty fucking huge difference between the two.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If WoW didn't have stuff like forming up with teammates, taking on big challenges, going into raids, battle grounds, world pvp, the game wouldn't be around today I bet. And the word tank was used long before wow, if you played wc3 or a lot of other games, you'd know that.
    Five or six years from now your average gamer kiddie won't even know what "raiding" is, unless some other game applies the term to some other activity. Tell me I'm wrong.

  20. #1160
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No they are not my opinion they are based on the statements made by the developers themselves. Not my opinion. THEIR DATA AND THEIR FACTS. It is exactly the precise reason you see LFR created. See you don't get it your asking people on a forum who are primarily raiders or ex raiders who come to the forum. It's a sample bias in the same way your narrow view of your circle of people is the exact same bias.

    It's not established that if wow didn't have raiding it would be pretty boring because we can safely assume that the developers wouldn't just sit on their hands and asses not making raids and saying "hey guys we got nothin". We can safely assume that they would be making SOMETHING ELSE THAT WASN'T RAIDING. I mean all of that is irellvant the simple fact is that end game for most players wasn't raiding prior to lfr especially. End game for most players for years was hitting lvl 60 or 70 and then quitting or lvling alts or pvping or running a scant few heroic dungeons (more so this after lfd was introduced). NONE OF IT WAS RAIDING. Not at least until wotlk with far more accessible 10 mans and even then it wasn't as much as lfr. How many stuck around? Well not many they left but more came back and the game has had an incredible churn of subscribers. Which is still ultimately to say RAIDING HAD VERY LITTLE impact on keeping players subscribed because it entertained so few of them. I don't know how else to put it but you live in a fantasy.

    So if Ghostcrawler says "heroics should be hard" and you disagree with that, it sounds like you are picking and choosing quotes that you just happen to like from blizzard. And wouldn't it be weird, if after you are saying such a low portion of the game actually raided, nobody in here came out and said "I never raided before". We will see if this actually happens or not. There's plenty of people that will say they are casual here, so surely you agree we should be getting at least a few, right?



    And if blizz didn't make raiding, what else would they have done? Make 7 man dungeons? Which sounds more appealing a 40 or 25 man raid or a raid in which you can bring 7 players, instead of 5?


    And end game for you is very end game from many people - you really think most people that hit 70 just don't play on that toon, and instead level up an alt? Come on, surely you can agree this is ridiculous.


    And Kara was just as accessible as wotlk with 10 mans, I already know what you're goig to say here though.


    And raiding probably has a much stronger impact then you think, considering many of wow's competitors flop because they lack strong raids at max level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Five or six years from now your average gamer kiddie won't even know what "raiding" is, unless some other game applies the term to some other activity. Tell me I'm wrong.

    Dungeons and raids are a normal part of an MMO, everyone knows that. Who would buy an MMO when they have no idea what's in it? Come on man, despite what Glorious Leader is saying, people don't just buy wow because of the night elf that's on the box.

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