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  1. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Leveling is the end game..... the statement itself is self contradictory. Also, so just because a lot of people don't hit max level, you're saying blizz shouldn't put stuff in for the people that actually do hit it? Besides 5 mans of course or dota. Come on man, if you were designing the game, everquest would be on top right now lol.
    Actually the developers were a success by moving things away from the EQ model. It's not contradictory for those players because for them the game stopped at max lvl. They quit after. I'm saying exactly as you did instead of forcing people to raid who didn't raid in the past they ought to just develop content for those people instead. If that means raids kinda have to suck then so be it. That's the choice your asking for Blizzard is not omnipotent and can't simple pull content out of their ass.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 08:56 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level?
    He said in an earlier thread that once they hit max level, they just roll a new toon and then level that lol. Yes, nobody that hits max level with their toon wants to see the content they can play once they get there.


    Seirously glorious leader, I cant' even believe you believe some of this stuff lol - why would someone just level up when they aren't going to do anything after that?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually the developers were a success by putting things away from the EQ model. It's not contradictory for those players because for them the game stopped at max lvl. They quit after.


    Yes, with your model players would quit. The point of wow is to keep players playing, hence why they put stuff in like raids for those that do hit max level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Once again it's called critical thinking. If the developers say "we think we should make hard dungeons" or "we think raiding is where everyone should be at" then yea I can argue that because ultimately it's their opinion and taste and that's influencing the game deisgn. However if they say "we like dungeons but were gonna focus on raids" (which they have said) then I can take them on their word because it's simple a statement of fact. They are focusing on dungeons. The opinion is that they think is best. The act (which is a fact as they have said and any clown will tell you) is that they are focusing on raids instead of making dungeons.

    Nobody runs the 5 mans because they don't offer current gear and haven't been updated. Oy vey you really are stuck on stupid about this whole nobody is saying anything. I mean it would do well if somebody just came in here and shut you up because you seemingly cannot get the point that this website is not indicative of jack shit (nor is this thread). Theirs two things players have historically not done. Raided and posted on 3rd party fan sites.
    People don't run 5 mans for a lot of reasons, lack of fun and gear are the two biggest reasons. The reasons they happened were due to over nerfs.

    As for the developers saying "almost nobody ever raided", they are taking into account people that don't hit max level, people that just aren't into raiding, and people that do stuff like PvP, which is a huge portion of wow's population. Just because of that, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have content for people that hit max level.

  3. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    He said in an earlier thread that once they hit max level, they just roll a new toon and then level that lol. Yes, nobody that hits max level with their toon wants to see the content they can play once they get there.


    Seirously glorious leader, I cant' even believe you believe some of this stuff lol - why would someone just level up when they aren't going to do anything after that?

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    Yes, with your model players would quit. The point of wow is to keep players playing, hence why they put stuff in like raids for those that do hit max level.
    Because the content offered at max level wasn't appealing to them. That content was primarily centered around raiding and subsequently since raiding had so little appeal they quit. they either didn't like the raiding scene or couldn't fit it into their life style. Ultimately TBC and Vanilla suceeded in spite of their design rather than because of it. The developers simple exhausted the market of people who would potentially play the game or a game like it. They took the air out of the room.

    If their goal was to keep players playing then raids were a pretty bad way about going through that. Like I said raids had very little participation so it isn't clear to anybody with any lick of sense that raiding kept people playing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post


    People don't run 5 mans for a lot of reasons, lack of fun and gear are the two biggest reasons. The reasons they happened were due to over nerfs.

    As for the developers saying "almost nobody ever raided", they are taking into account people that don't hit max level, people that just aren't into raiding, and people that do stuff like PvP, which is a huge portion of wow's population. Just because of that, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have content for people that hit max level.
    No they take into account everybody. Yhey also say they lose lots of people on the way to max level but I mean I don't see the point of your distinction either. I mean your basically saying everybody who doesn't participate in raiding is alot of people who don't participate in raiding. Duh. That's the fucking point man. Why should such a huge mass of players be ignored or shoved off to the side so you can get your fill? I mean you at least now understand you and your hobby were a real minority thing. Now do you understand why lfr has to exist? Your hobby took up to much time and provided to little entertainment for to few people. BUT YOU WON. We don't have dungeons anymore so they could save raids. RAIDERS WIN.

    That's quite honestly as clear as I can make it. If you did any research or looked into any of this it would come as no surprise. I'm done boyo. You can keep carrying on with whatever. I've made it as CRYSTAL CLEAR and frankly at this point I do think I'm being trolled.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 09:08 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    By the reduction of grinds which Cata continued to do only to get reversed in MoP. If Cata was to cater to the hardcore then it would have had more grinds than WotLK along with slower gear catch ups. The time investment to get stuff done in Cata was far shorter than WotLK along with far faster reward rates for non-raiders. Cata went too casual in terms of time investment on an individual character leaving many players bored and bitching about access to other content they had no interests in prior. If Cata was to cater to the hardcores then it would have continued with the WotLK model which involved non-raiders getting scraps for VP and those interested in VP capping would have had to run a daily heroic, weekly raid boss, world boss, and both 10 and 25 man raid lockouts to hit VP cap.

    I was spending about five hours a week in the game with stuff to do while no-lifers QQ about having nothing to do. The difficulty was not the biggest issue, it was content and length of grinds available.
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spent in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-09-11 at 09:11 PM.

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because the content offered at max level wasn't appealing to them. That content was primarily centered around raiding and subsequently since raiding had so little appeal they quit. they either didn't like the raiding scene or couldn't fit it into their life style. Ultimately TBC and Vanilla suceeded in spite of their design rather than because of it. The developers simple exhausted the market of people who would potentially play the game or a game like it. They took the air out of the room.

    If their goal was to keep players playing then raids were a pretty bad way about going through that. Like I said raids had very little participation so it isn't clear to anybody with any lick of sense that raiding kept people playing.

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    No they take into account everybody. Yhey also say they lose lots of people on the way to max level but I mean I don't see the point of your distinction either. I mean your basically saying everybody who doesn't participate in raiding is alot of people who don't participate in raiding. Duh. That's the fucking point man. Why should such a huge mass of players be ignored or shoved off to the side so you can get your fill? I mean you at least now understand you and your hobby were a real minority thing. Now do you understand why lfr has to exist? Your hobby took up to much time and provided to little entertainment for to few people.

    That's quite honestly as clear as I can make it. If you did any research or looked into any of this it would come as no surprise. I'm done boyo. You can keep carrying on with whatever. I've made it as CRYSTAL CLEAR and frankly at this point I do think I'm being trolled.

    In vanilla, having an alt, especially at max level, was considered hardcore lol. I seriously can't believe you think most people just level alts once they hit max level. Why play the game at that point? That's like me grinding out a huge rep and not buying a mount of getting any sort of reward. If you really don't want to do stuff at the max level in WoW.... maybe wow isn't your game, have you considered that before? Blizzard changing the game to cater to people that don't like MMO's, in my opinion, is what has caused many of the bad changes. There's plenty of other games that may be up that type of person's alley. Beyond all of that, considering wow is the most popular MMO, I think you and me both know you are doing more than just a little embellishing here.
    My point with the other topic is, if blizzard takes out raiding, there isn't much for a max level player to do, and they would quit. Because of raiding that doesn't happen tho. Even for people that don't raid, using content that can lead to the possibility of raiding has been a strong factor in wow. You may disagree, but based off of Wow's numbers you'd be wrong, and if you wants facts, there's your fact.

    And if these people don't like raiding, chances are they won't like LFR either (which appears to be the case from many posts I see) which is why I say LFR should be taken out of the game. Direct people to other stuff, but if they don't like raiding..... don't make them raid, and especially don't give them a failed version of a raid instead. You're
    essentially agreeing that LFR sucks but they should keep it in the game, why? lol

  6. #1186
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spen in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for lesser skilled groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.

    Yes there was players crying about nothing to do in early Cata. The QQ only intensified months after 4.1 which was released early by delaying the raid launch into another patch to deal with lack of content issues.

    Casual does not equal bad and make them incapable of getting out of a fire or talking with team members. Cata had a lot less endgame available than any previous expansion. The daily grinds was pitiful compared to that of WotLK at launch along with faster leveling and gearing pace. Casuals come in all varieties. Yes it was a road block for those who could not invest at least an hours worth of time while it was more convenient for the weekend warrior types or those who dont have time to play everyday let alone on a schedule. Just because something requires more time investment does not make it more difficult, just less convenient.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-09-11 at 09:21 PM.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for a number of groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.
    Fortunately, one hardly had to gear up in Wrath heroics before being able to down the easier bosses in Naxx.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #1188
    Hahaha, does RJL seriously think raiding was ever anything but a small minority participation hobby?

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Wrong, Cata reduced the time spent in grinds but basically negated any dungeon to any casual that didnt have an hour and a half.

    Almost no one was crying that there wasnt anything to do in Cata untill they released only two dungeons in six months.

    Cata didnt went too casual, Cata was the first time in WoW's history where Blizzard changed direction and instead of making the expansion more casual friendly they did it LESS casual friendly. They took dungeons away from a lot of people only to give them to the elitist hardcore group, which of course wasnt sattisfied (they never were, they werent sattisfied in TBC either, even when now with rose tinted glasses they say they are. I was there in TBC where hardcores were saying that Blizzard had dumbed down the game too far).
    They arent satisfied now with the harder than ever normal raids and the long grinds.

    The difficulty WAS the bigger issue, and it was the issue that lost the most subs to Blizzard.
    i agree difficulty was the issue.. when I and my friends and family have to decide kick a friend or loved one out or not progress.. then we will stop where we are and probably be unsubscribed within months. there were no mechanics to help struggling players get past difficult encounters. there was no where to go to get gear, or buffs that helped the ones who struggled. the one dungeon that had them (ICC) had them was demonized and said it was to easy.. anything to make people feel that their time spent was wasted.

    frankly HC needs to be abandoned its created a huge rift in the player base that's being exaggerated as all the better players gravitate into guilds that are capable of doing them. either that or give the players more tools to conquer their challenges when they hit a road block.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Fortunately, one hardly had to gear up in Wrath heroics before being able to down the easier bosses in Naxx.
    Which still a minority raided and that was 10 man Naxx which was tuned closer to normal mode dungeon levels. Raiding was not much of a concern for the majority even when it was at its easiest.

  11. #1191
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    WotLK heroics took an hour and a half for lesser skilled groups at launch and even longer for some in the more difficult ones ignoring the time invested putting groups together and meeting up.

    Yes there was players crying about nothing to do in early Cata. The QQ only intensified months after 4.1 which was released early by delaying the raid launch into another patch to deal with lack of content issues.

    Casual does not equal bad and make them incapable of getting out of a fire or talking with team members. Cata had a lot less endgame available than any previous expansion. The daily grinds was pitiful compared to that of WotLK at launch along with faster leveling and gearing pace. Casuals come in all varieties. Yes it was a road block for those who could not invest at least an hours worth of time while it was more convenient for the weekend warrior types or those who dont have time to play everyday let alone on a schedule. Just because something requires more time investment does not make it more difficult, just less convenient.

    Their were SOME players qqing about nothing to do. I would submit not the casual players. Casual does not equal bad but often casual players don't have the commitment to become better or basically don't even want to. I mean they tried to bring easy time consuming content back in mists with daily quests but look at how that meshogoes worked out. In this instance it's one example where it's far better to ere on the side of caution. If it means that hardcore players (in terms of time consumption) have to have 3 or 4 alts who cares. These are people who play 20+ hours a week, are ultimately addicted to the game and will do it on alts anyway and to be frank it's not sustainable to support their play style anyway. While the bored no content feedback may have been persistent it probably was not universal and very wide spread. You can see why they acted on it but well it was terrible that they did. Or that they refused to listen in beta when players told them in beta this sucks balls.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-11 at 09:30 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I don't agree. LVLING was the end game for people. Raiding could not serve as end game for most people because IT DIDN'T. We know this as a fact. Since so few people ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED in the act. It's utterly fucking asinine to say well raiding kept people entertained and subscribed at max lvl WHEN NEXT TO NOBODY FUCKING RAIDED.
    I didn't realize people considered leveling as end game once they hit max level -_-

    Ok, what do you suggest a player did back then after max level? In my personal experience, everyone I knew did dungeons and some raided. There was only 1 guy who was obsessed at obtaining all BS recipe and BS crafting was his end game (but even he was doign dungeons).

    Ultimately, I would say VAST AMOUNT of players did dungeons and raids as their end game. I do not for a second buy the idea that most people didn't in fact touch dungeons or raids. Where are you even getting this "fact" from?

    Why don't you clarify your "multifaceted" end game of WoW that kept players subbed month after month after max level? In your experience, what did people focus their time on besides dungeons and raids? You think millions of people simply leveled alts after alts?
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  13. #1193
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimble View Post
    Hahaha, does RJL seriously think raiding was ever anything but a small minority participation hobby?

    So you never raided? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTurbo View Post
    i agree difficulty was the issue.. when I and my friends and family have to decide kick a friend or loved one out or not progress..


    Why would you take these people to the raids if you know they can't handle them? My sister doesn't play wow, but if she did, I wouldn't do arena with her lol. Doesn't mean you still can't do other stuff with them and have fun.

  14. #1194
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Leveling is the end game..... the statement itself is self contradictory.
    Not really. You're defining what you view as 'end game' as the end game for everyone. I would submit that for people who principally do PVP their end game doesn't really fit into your definition of end game and wouldn't suit them at all. So too, those who don't bother with raid content at any level. They have a different end game, one that is personal to them. And no one should condescend or laugh about it. It's a substantial group of people.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Not really. You're defining what you view as 'end game' as the end game for everyone. I would submit that for people who principally do PVP their end game doesn't really fit into your definition of end game and wouldn't suit them at all. So too, those who don't bother with raid content at any level. They have a different end game, one that is personal to them. And no one should condescend or laugh about it. It's a substantial group of people.
    My point I was trying to argue here is that typically "end game" is the term used once you are done leveling. As for people that PvP, many of them do it at max level as well - there are definitely twinks out there, but how many of them don't have a max level alt? I love lowbie BG's though, I have leveled a few toons just to do them.
    That being said, how many people do you know that level an alt to max level, do nothing with it, and then roll a new alt? If it's because they don't like the stuff at max level.... chances are they wouldn't like the stuff they do while leveling too.

  16. #1196
    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Let's go over some things to what makes gear upgrades feel good and fun and thus driving people to pay 15 a month:

    1. You feel your power increasing when you can kill things faster
    2. An obstacle that you could not beat before is now possible
    3. Perhaps you enjoy the gear's look
    4. You do things that you think is fun while getting new gears
    5. There is enough activities to do so you aren't out of content
    I can accept this as a primary driver for subscriptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Raids match these points while making each iteration feel new and fresh.
    I agree with this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    Sadly to say, there is currently no other system that provide a new and fresh experience while obtaining gear patch after patch.
    I would amend that to be "... no other system in the game at this time ..." This is the problem with the game right now. It's raid or be bored.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    If you don't believe raiding is the lure, what do you think is the factor(s) that keep players paying?
    Challenging five mans that don't rely on FYAD mechanics as a crutch to providing challenges. That's what the game has been missing since WotLK. Raiders will argue that it was one big AoEfest, and maybe it was in raid gear. For the common player, however, the content was engaging. If you mostly ran with non-raiders in blues and some greens the content was challenging but not so challenging that players would quit in frustration. We don't have that anymore. We have the same six new heroics and the same three recycled ones as we had when the expansion first released, and that's it. When the expansion was first released you were [i]guaranteed[i] to repeat heroics if you ran one every day for over ten days, even in the best case. By the end of WotLK I had sixteen to pick from, so I could, in the best case, run one heroic a day for over two weeks without repeating one.

  17. #1197
    problem is rick your interpreting what he's saying to what you want it to mean.. I think that's why they are arguing so much. in the end he's right.. raiding is a minority sport..

  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Perhaps you bought the game because of the night elf on the cover, but I can tell you that there's a pretty big fan base for blizzard and their name has gotten by on word of mouth for almost 2 decades now. Stuff like raiding is *why* blizzard gets word of mouth publicity from fans, they were (not so much now) known for going the extra mile in every game. It's changed quite a bit over the last year or so with the "re-use content to save money" thing, but back in the day, it was dramatically different.
    I can honestly say that all word of mouth regarding raiding that I have ever heard in real life has been negative. I've never heard anyone in real life brag about raiding. All the former players I have spoken to refer to raiding as either causing them to leave or preventing them from going back. Word of mouth cuts both ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata?
    We're discussing WoW on a WoW fan site. Of course most of us here have raided before. We're hardly representative of the entire WoW population.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I can honestly say that all word of mouth regarding raiding that I have ever heard in real life has been negative. I've never heard anyone in real life brag about raiding. All the former players I have spoken to refer to raiding as either causing them to leave or preventing them from going back. Word of mouth cuts both ways.

    - - - Updated - - -


    We're discussing WoW on a WoW fan site. Of course most of us here have raided before. We're hardly representative of the entire WoW population.


    You say many here have raided before, but I'm sure there's many that would call themselves casual. And if raiding is a very "hardcore thing that only a small minority ever did" then I'm sure you'd agree that there would be at least a few whom spoke up and said "I never did it". I don't think MMO is that hard core, do you?



    As for the raiding thing, sounds like we've heard very different things. Have you played any of the older wow games though? Awesome RTS games that consisted of building massive armies and duking it out on the battle field - pretty much what raiding is. I'm not saying everyone loves raiding, but it's definitely a huge draw for the game. If they didn't have it, there's a lot of people that wouldn't play because of it, or at least for as long.

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If raiding has had low participation, then who here has never raided before Cata?
    A minority even with a 30% buff to players only a minority raided and a minority of that cleared the whole raid despite how long it was out. It wouldnt have mattered if T11 was Naxx 2.0 difficulty which did have one shot mechanics along with those where one person could wipe a group, there still would had been a minority raiding and many of those realms which had troubled raiding populations still would have done shitty and failed to kill a boss like KT.

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