[SPOILERS]it's official, jaina is evil!

[Ellixen]

So why is Sylvanas plaguing entire towns and cities to ooze now? Probably because of her selfpity, because of her poor fate at the hands of Arthas Menethil. Because she is now a spiteful bitch who needs to screw over others to feel a semblance of happiness/satisfaction in that husk of a dark heart of hers.


Don't even compare that to Jaina who has a valid reason to do what she does/say what she says. Maybe if you tried to put yourself in a character's shoes for once, they'd stop screaming "omg jaina not passive anymore! RAID BOSS OMG EVIL"


And yes, the HORDE did do shit. All over the years. Theramore was just the drop that made the bucket explode. And only Baine tried to avoid what happened at Theramore. The majority was co-operating, so stop using Garrosh as the scapegoat for anything bad the Horde has done. Jaina even tried to seal that hatred away in 5.1, but she was subsequently stabbed in the back by the same faction she tried to forgive.

Wow you have rage issues, okay... so explain how ALL the horde was involved with theramore. Explain how her good friend Thrall (who she subsequently wanted killed) was involved. I am putting myself in her shoes, I'd be evil lol, essentially wanting genocide is evil. Revenge itself is not a "good" or even "neutral" concept as it focuses soley on getting what the individual wants regardless of any other factors.

Yeah, sylvanas is doing those things out of self pity, 'cause she's evil, when did i say she wasn't. I'm saying Jaina is joining her. It's one thing to oust the leader of a dicatorship, it's another to destroy his people AFTER he's been ousted.

[jbombard]

If she was evil she would have just obliterated Orgrimmar civilians and all.

I think it would have been much more awesome if while Thrall and Varian were arguing she quietly walked over to Garrosh and slits his throat.

[Yarathir]

No, I'm totally serious, and mostly hoping this isn't how you would judge this kind of personal betrayal in real life. She's basically decided that Thrall, Baine, Vol'jin deserve to die. Thrall, FFS. I mean, I get that people have faction tunnel vision, but if you have been awake in Blizzard's product at any point over the last 15 years or so, that's been a pretty substantial personal friendship. From that to "I want you dead" due to the actions of a third party is... sociopathic, to be sure, but just vain on top of that.

The same Thrall who she's spent years defending, only to get shit flung at her face. She offered the Horde peace, and they carved her back with a knife. Now she's past forgiving them, and they've brought it all on themselves. Realistic. What you guys want is just an overglorified punching back.



Deal with it.

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Wow you have rage issues, okay... so explain how ALL the horde was involved with theramore. Explain how her good friend Thrall (who she subsequently wanted killed) was involved. I am putting myself in her shoes, I'd be evil lol, essentially wanting genocide is evil. Revenge itself is not a "good" or even "neutral" concept as it focuses soley on getting what the individual wants regardless of any other factors.

Yeah, sylvanas is doing those things out of self pity, 'cause she's evil, when did i say she wasn't. I'm saying Jaina is joining her. It's one thing to oust the leader of a dicatorship, it's another to destroy his people AFTER he's been ousted.

I quit reading the moment you brought out 'rage issues'. Thanks for proving the point in my head that you don't really read my posts at all. Keep denying, hater.

[Jaxi]

From that to "I want you dead" due to the actions of a third party is... sociopathic, to be sure, but just vain on top of that.

Thrall put Garrosh in charge, so he bears a lot of the responsibility for Garrosh's action. Not that much of a stretch to hate Thrall for what happened to her town.

[jbombard]

Wow you have rage issues, okay... so explain how ALL the horde was involved with theramore. Explain how her good friend Thrall (who she subsequently wanted killed) was involved. I am putting myself in her shoes, I'd be evil lol, essentially wanting genocide is evil. Revenge itself is not a "good" or even "neutral" concept as it focuses soley on getting what the individual wants regardless of any other factors.

Yeah, sylvanas is doing those things out of self pity, 'cause she's evil, when did i say she wasn't. I'm saying Jaina is joining her. It's one thing to oust the leader of a dicatorship, it's another to destroy his people AFTER he's been ousted.

When Theramore happens there were no rebels there was a united Horde. He was the leader of the Horde and his decisions were the decisions of the Horde.

[Yarathir]

When Theramore happens there were no rebels there was a united Horde. He was the leader of the Horde and his decisions were the decisions of the Horde.

Don't expect them to acknowledge that. According to them, the Horde can do no bad, Garrosh is the ultimate bad guy who forced all of them to co-operate, because it's not like they willingly did so (hur hur), and Jaina is a psychotic bitch for not being lovey-dovey with the group of savages that stuck a dagger in her back, five or more times before, after she tried her best to broker peace and show them in a redeeming light.

[Ellixen]

When Theramore happens there were no rebels there was a united Horde. He was the leader of the Horde and his decisions were the decisions of the Horde.

Yeah and the horde started fracturing and his decisions were the decisions of some orcs it may have been the end of the last xpac, but it was the start of the horde dominos falling.

Also at Yara, Thrall didn't fling shit in her face please source for that. and you should read that post regardless of you getting riled up.

Don't expect them to acknowledge that. According to them, the Horde can do no bad, Garrosh is the ultimate bad guy who forced all of them to co-operate, because it's not like they willingly did so (hur hur), and Jaina is a psychotic bitch for not being lovey-dovey with the group of savages that stuck a dagger in her back, five or more times before, after she tried her best to broker peace and show them in a redeeming light.

I never said it wasn't bad, you're putting words in my mouth. I said it was Garrosh and those who followed him which as proven by modern society guilty by only association isn't true guilt. If all of the horde had continued to obey Garrosh to the tooth, then I would agree with you. But they didn't

[Yarathir]

Yeah and the horde started fracturing and his decisions were the decisions of some orcs it may have been the end of the last xpac, but it was the start of the horde dominos falling.

Also at Yara, Thrall didn't fling shit in her face please source for that. and you should read that post regardless of you getting riled up.




I never said it wasn't bad, you're putting words in my mouth. I said it was Garrosh and those who followed him which as proven by modern society guilty by only association isn't true guilt. If all of the horde had continued to obey Garrosh to the tooth, then I would agree with you. But they didn't

So because they stopped obeying past the event in this case that we are talking about, their co-operation is no longer valid? You what mate? This wasn't just guilty by association: there were forced, many of which were aware of the plan, and none of them except Baine stepped in to try and avert it. The Horde is a connected group; they together bear the collective weight of the decisions. They don't just get to choose a scapegoat and draw their hands away, preaching innocence.

[Ellixen]

So because they stopped obeying past the event in this case that we are talking about, their co-operation is no longer valid? You what mate? This wasn't just guilty by association: there were forced, many of which were aware of the plan, and none of them except Baine stepped in to try and avert it. The Horde is a connected group; they together bear the collective weight of the decisions. They don't just get to choose a scapegoat and draw their hands away, preaching innocence.

Okay well I have to sleep, got work in a few hours, great debating with you. I'll leave you with this which was taken from http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/09/23/kn...eramores-fall/

(Horde fallout

Although successful in your rescue, it becomes clear after your departure that there is far more going on than Warchief Hellscream has let anyone know. Flying overhead, a goblin airship armed with a giant mana bomb is bearing down on Theramore. And when the bomb drops, the city is obliterated. Any Alliance left in Theramore at the time of its destruction have surely been blown to pieces. It seems that Garrosh's plan worked from beginning to end ... but he neglected to inform anyone of what that plan truly was.

As a loyal member of the Horde, a victory is a victory, yes. But as an honorable member of the Horde, one has to ask in hushed tones ... why did Garrosh require a Horde army, if he had a mana bomb at his disposal? What of the Horde lives lost, fighting at Theramore's gates? What of those Horde who did not manage to escape the bomb's detonation? While these questions may seem important to you, they seem to matter very little to Warchief Hellscream. )

I understand about the horde's involvement in capturing Theramore killing guards and what not, however the complete destruction of it no one knew about.

And once again if you were put into that situation would you not be considered evil for wanting to decimate everyone, going back to thrall he had left the horde wayyy before that point remember? Yet she even wanted him dead.

Should the horde pay for their crimes, well they are aren't they? they're essentially an alliance protectorate now. It's like when the U.S. bombs the crap out of Iraq, we ousted their leader we killed their soldiers, now we allow them to live their lives knowing that we're always watching...


Goodnight

[Irisel]

Totally pulled this out of my hat just now, but if the next xpac is Azshara themed, and seeing Jaina is a powerful Magi and Azshara is even more so than her, maybe Jaina gets taken over to the dark side?

[jbombard]

...snip...

Should the horde pay for their crimes, well they are aren't they? they're essentially an alliance protectorate now. It's like when the U.S. bombs the crap out of Iraq, we ousted their leader we killed their soldiers, now we allow them to live their lives knowing that we're always watching...

Goodnight

In what way are they paying? Alliance helped Vol'jin perform a coup, alliance lost lives propping up a new Horde warchief so that ... Varian could say even though you have tried to destroy the world repeatedly, we are going to give you another chance but if you are bad we are going to come back and kick your ass... after you have repaired your defenses, replenished your forces, and we have lost any and all strategic advantage of course. Be warned!!!

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Totally pulled this out of my hat just now, but if the next xpac is Azshara themed, and seeing Jaina is a powerful Magi and Azshara is even more so than her, maybe Jaina gets taken over to the dark side?

Why does it have to be dark side vs. light side. She has legitimate reasons to be pissed, why can't she just be, you know, pissed.

[Sand Person]

she's not evil. just very spiteful!

[Grubjuice]

If she was evil she would have just obliterated Orgrimmar civilians and all.

I think it would have been much more awesome if while Thrall and Varian were arguing she quietly walked over to Garrosh and slits his throat.

this not a M rated game
as awesome as that would be to see, it's not allowed

[7seti]

Thrall put Garrosh in charge, so he bears a lot of the responsibility for Garrosh's action. Not that much of a stretch to hate Thrall for what happened to her town.

Not to mention Thrall sat twiddling his thumbs while Theramore got nuked, but intervened to save Orgrimmar. Neutral character, my ass.

[Bathory]

Pretty straight forward, not evil. Varian says "contain sylvanas" Contain? She's in the room. End her right then and there.

(I'm an undead player, but still)

[Deleted]

Yarathir gets a deluded fanboy cookie. Keep it up bro.
Out of all the people discussing you re the only one being annoyingly ironic.

[Deleted]

Alliance and horde can understand each other but they can't understand each other in game? FAIL! Understanding of your enemy language is vital advantage if you know what they're planning.

[Yarathir]

Yarathir gets a deluded fanboy cookie. Keep it up bro.
Out of all the people discussing you re the only one being annoyingly ironic.

Yeah. Now if you really want to strike me, form a proper argument instead of going all the way on the 'deluded fanboy' thing. Nice buzzword yo.



Funniest part is that I'm not even too pro-Alliance when it comes to it. I'm just sick of the unneeded Jaina hate. She isn't evil. She bears hatred for what shit she went through, and she reacted like many human beings would have. If that makes me a deluded fanboy (even though I usually don't pay too much attention to Jaina at all) then so be it, I guess? That term has had a huge shift in definition, it seems.

[3vyan]

They did such a poor job on their character development.
She was such a great character before MoP.

Then tides of war came and she changed, I liked this part: vengefull, filled with hatred and afterwards calmed down, seeking peace but not backing away from fighting if the horde crosses the line.

But what's up with this cinematic? This isn't Jaina? This isn't like her, she changed but not into this warmonger who tries to put down the enemy when they're weak.
What reason does she have to want to tackle thrall and the others now? Her problems were with garrosh and his loyal followers...

Well goodbye Jaina, you WERE a good part of wow lore...
Changes for her make no SENSE AT ALL...

[Gungrir]

They did such a poor job on their character development.
She was such a great character before MoP.

Then tides of war came and she changed, I liked this part: vengefull, filled with hatred and afterwards calmed down, seeking peace but not backing away from fighting if the horde crosses the line.

But what's up with this cinematic? This isn't Jaina? This isn't like her, she changed but not into this warmonger who tries to put down the enemy when they're weak.
What reason does she have to want to tackle thrall and the others now? Her problems were with garrosh and his loyal followers...

Well goodbye Jaina, you WERE a good part of wow lore...
Changes for her make no SENSE AT ALL...

You make it sound like this has happened for the first time, allot of characters in Warcraft lore have made some 180. We are still talking fictional chars here and the creators in the end can do with them what they want and book =! ingame.

In the books Deathwing was a cunning little weasel that didn't relay on strength alone, did you see what happens in Cata?