I am requiring my guild to do their spec's "Gold" Proving Grounds - thoughts?

[Sliippy]

I think if you want to do something like this you should go for 30 rounds of endless. Because gold is pretty easy for dps and tank. I got sidetracked by isle stuff or I'd have done endless.

[Torgent]

Um...that's not how it works. In a raid setting, sure, you get to call the shots. HOWEVER, you do not get to dictate what people do outside of that raid.

That is why you lost raiders. Your attitude sucks.

The raid leader decides who comes to the raid. If they say you need to have gold, you need to have gold. They lead the raid. They aren't telling you that you can't play WoW unless you do it, only that you can't raid with their group if you don't.

[Deleted]

I think if you want to do something like this you should go for 30 rounds of endless. Because gold is pretty easy for dps and tank. I got sidetracked by isle stuff or I'd have done endless.

They are not really a hardcore guild. On my realm we are 6 tanks with endless 30, most of them are from world 12 and a world 35 guild.
There are 2 healers with endless 30, 4 above endless 20, from the same world 12 and world 35 guilds.
There are about 10 dpsers from various guild, half are from those previous mentioned guilds, but some are from world 70 / 100 and even one guy from a world 1000 guild.

This guild is clearly not on that level and asking for everyone to get endless 30 seems to be asking too much, getting endless 30 requires a lot of time for most people (read most people before saying 'It was easy for me'). There is also the problem that endless 30 is extremely unbalanced depending on class.
So asking that from everyone is kinda unfair when it is by comparison a cakewalk for a dk dps compared to a disc priest.

Asking for gold seems far more reasonable for a guild in his position, and while different classes got it easier/harder to get gold, it is much fairer than getting endless 30. Any class can get gold with out to much trouble, so it is imo a better setting stone than endess 30. With endless 30 you kinda have to take class and spec into consideration.

[Nazgrax]

I play as a resto shaman and since proving grounds have been released I've spent much time doing Endless healer. I don't understand people saying it's not good practice for raids. the fact that you can't drink between waves teaches you mana management tricks, it shows you healers can participate actively in damage mitigation with interrupts/stuns and it asks of you to learn to plan your cooldown usage.

I like OP's idea to require gold for a raid spot.

[Lucetia]

3 = a bunch now? Yeesh, hyperbole.

Getting gold proves you have some competence. It doesn't mean you're a heroic raider - however, if you cannot get gold, you probably should be in LFR.

See many would disagree. I didn't try Proving Grounds until today. I agree with most proving grounds does nothing in preparation for raiding. So making it a requirement is a bit silly, in my opinion. Especially for some people. I tried gold on each once just to get a feel for it and even though my gear was 500+ for tanking the healer had trouble healing on certain packs even though only damage I was taking was from the mobs. Stuff like that happens. The DPS one was even more silly I thought and definitely didn't do anything for raiding except for "swap to this mob, this mob now, etc" when certain things spawned. While it's nice to know who can swap the whole thing had nothing pertained to raiding.

If anything requiring Bronze is ideal, but anything after that just gets silly. This is one of the things Blizzard was afraid would happen if it was implemented, but they knew they couldn't stop it.

I don't understand people saying it's not good practice for raids. the fact that you can't drink between waves teaches you mana management tricks, it shows you healers can participate actively in damage mitigation with interrupts/stuns and it asks of you to learn to plan your cooldown usage.

Here is it's intention. To help people practice on something other than a stationary dummy. It will help some people who want to try and manage things better, try out a spec, try some forges, etc. This still doesn't mean it helps you in raids as the mechanics of the mobs aren't what you'll be doing in raids other than the basic of healers heal, dps damage and tanks tank mobs. There is no mechanics in there for tanks like on raid bosses that they need to prepare for big damage and same for healers. DPS there wasn't any mechanics I saw other than "Swap to X target and burn", interrupt or kite an orb.

[Tankitbetter]

See many would disagree. I didn't try Proving Grounds until today. I agree with most proving grounds does nothing in preparation for raiding. So making it a requirement is a bit silly, in my opinion. Especially for some people. I tried gold on each once just to get a feel for it and even though my gear was 500+ for tanking the healer had trouble healing on certain packs even though only damage I was taking was from the mobs. Stuff like that happens. The DPS one was even more silly I thought and definitely didn't do anything for raiding except for "swap to this mob, this mob now, etc" when certain things spawned. While it's nice to know who can swap the whole thing had nothing pertained to raiding.

If anything requiring Bronze is ideal, but anything after that just gets silly. This is one of the things Blizzard was afraid would happen if it was implemented, but they knew they couldn't stop it.

Gear doesn't matter. You're scaled down to ilvl 463. You can't out-gear it, therefor making it more skill based.

[Deleted]

Gear doesn't matter. You're scaled down to ilvl 463. You can't out-gear it, therefor making it more skill based.

Gear matters a lot of healers, and to some extent dpses too. Having a lot of gem slots help dpsers. That said, I too endless 35 on alt hunter in shit gear that was not optimised at all, so gear is not everything but it helps. For tanks the gear is not that important though.

[Tankitbetter]

Gear matters a lot of healers, and to some extent dpses too. Having a lot of gem slots help dpsers. That said, I too endless 35 on alt hunter in shit gear that was not optimised at all, so gear is not everything but it helps. For tanks the gear is not that important though.

Nod. I did the DPS one 6% over hit cap on my shaman and with a spirit meta gem.

That's one of the reasons why I do not think this is an unreasonable measure.

[Hotsforyou]

Are you fucking serious? If my GM asked me to do that single player shit I would tell him to fuck off. I have no interest in doing them and if someone was to try and make me dam right all hell would brake lose.

Same here, i have no use for any single player crap in an MMO outside of questing. My raid leader knows it too, and would never ask me to do it or he would lose me as a tank and officer.

[squee666]

DPS one is way to easy gonna try endless

Real dps test for capable player are brawlers guild rank 8+

also got Tank silver both of these were as lock and voidwalker doesnt work as tank as it only wants to taunt 1 mob QQ


I literally had 20+ seconds waiting between each stage on gold GG 2k haste destro lock with scaling and no reforging

Same here, i have no use for any single player crap in an MMO outside of questing. My raid leader knows it too, and would never ask me to do it or he would lose me as a tank and officer.

Seriously are you so dense that has be one very elitist comment which makes you sounds very sub-par. If your raid leader wouldnt ask you to do it because he believes and you know would be so petty your not worth his time.

Like i said Gold isnt worth trying but is also very easy.

Brawlers is more accurate in player skill except for gear scaling.

Both are good to try and REGARDLESS if its single player IT PUTS SINGLE PLAYER SKILLS TO TEST. Because if you are always DEPENDING on other in raid because lack of your own playerskill then its really letting group down.

Long story short Do solo player crap - make self better player - do less mistakes - group less carry fails - easy kills -helps support group

[Nero Duskwind]

3 = a bunch now? Yeesh, hyperbole.

Getting gold proves you have some competence. It doesn't mean you're a heroic raider - however, if you cannot get gold, you probably should be in LFR.

You DO realize that the achievement is account-wide, correct? Not that they're incredibly difficult to begin with but anyone who has a few level 90 alts can just get the achievement on which ever toon can breeze through it with the least resistance and, BAM, they can flaunt that Gold achievement on every toon. So now you have an additional problem and that is that the achievement only proves competence in the class used to get it, not necessarily the class the individual wants to take to your raid.

[Qualia]

Gear doesn't matter. You're scaled down to ilvl 463. You can't out-gear it, therefor making it more skill based.

Well, in a way, gear does matter, just not in the way of "the more geared you are, the easier it will be". As the LMG is disabled, Cloak is disabled, your ilvl / stats are scaled down terribly (Blizzard scaling system is by no means perfect), someone going in with these will be in a disadvantage vs people who bother to use an old helm with normal meta (or just using normal meta because they haven't gotten new gems), reforge and gem for the scaling system, etc.

I've gotten my Gold and Proven title as DPS, yet as many others, I don't really see how it is supposed to be a good practice for raid as it test a different skill set than what needed for raid. The DPS test doesn't require you to get out of fire (there aren't any), nor does it require you to perform a perfect DPS rotation (pretty much DoT'd everything in an half-assed manner and still be done with it) or DPSing a correct mob (beside the banana monkeys that appeared in 3 out of 10 repetitive endless waves). The only thing it requires you to interrupt mobs that once every 30s, with very slow cast time and can be interrupted with anything (fear / stun / normal interrupt) and perform some tricks with kiting the ball to stun mobs (which haven't happened in raids for years, if that mechanic was ever applied in any raid). Not to mention, classes scale differently so some classes will find it harder than others (SP vs lock for example). All in all, it's as good of a practice as DPSing Target Dummy. It can be fun, but certainly, in its current incarnation, doesn't help improving your raid more than 10' of doing research or watching vids. Even doing Brawler guild is more similar to raid encounter than PG. If my raid leader is to require gold or endless PG, I'm certain most of our raiders will tell him to get that BS idea out of his mind.

To OP: you are the raid leader, so it's true you can put whatever requirement you want. However, seeing your raiding group are new, you are casual and certainly not the most progressed group around, ask yourself if you are one of your raider, why should you bother doing something that doesn't help with raiding in order to raid while you can go to many other guilds (or PuGs) with similar progression and don't require it.

[Tankitbetter]

You DO realize that the achievement is account-wide, correct? Not that they're incredibly difficult to begin with but anyone who has a few level 90 alts can just get the achievement on which ever toon can breeze through it with the least resistance and, BAM, they can flaunt that Gold achievement on every toon. So now you have an additional problem and that is that the achievement only proves competence in the class used to get it, not necessarily the class the individual wants to take to your raid.

"Easier" or "Harder" are relative. As it is, if the player is willing to put the forth the time and effort to get Gold somehow, it shows they're engaged in staying in the guild. I don't really think any of them would go to such extremes to avoid doing something they are asked to do, though. It'd basically working hard to not work.

[Mormolyce]

In an organised raiding guild I see nothing wrong with requiring people to demonstrate a certain amount of commitment/performance to get a raid slot. If you don't like the guild having a requirement like that, find one that doesn't (not trying to be a jerk here I just think that's the best for both parties).

Sure it doesn't prove that you can contribute effectively in a raid, but it's something. As long as you're not a jerk about it I don't see the harm.

- - - Updated - - -

You DO realize that the achievement is account-wide, correct? Not that they're incredibly difficult to begin with but anyone who has a few level 90 alts can just get the achievement on which ever toon can breeze through it with the least resistance and, BAM, they can flaunt that Gold achievement on every toon. So now you have an additional problem and that is that the achievement only proves competence in the class used to get it, not necessarily the class the individual wants to take to your raid.

I imagine personal honesty comes into play here.

Technically if they're in the guild and get the achievement you can actually see which character they get it on. If you're online at the time. Might also record it in your guild's log thingy as well - I haven't checked.

- - - Updated - - -

DPS one is way to easy gonna try endless

Real dps test for capable player are brawlers guild rank 8+

If only Brawlers Guild had CM-style scaling. But yeah in non-raid gear the higher BG ranks are a bitch.

[Lucetia]

Gear doesn't matter. You're scaled down to ilvl 463. You can't out-gear it, therefor making it more skill based.

It's not that gear matters and I don't think I said that directly. What I meant, and I didn't say it directly either, was that I was in 500+ gear that scaled to 463 so it's not like I was below the ilvl or anything.

Some of it is skill and some of it isn't. As I mentioned in the tanking challenge. Even if I put up Sacred Shield, had Shield of Righteous Buff, Guardian going and Seal of Insight up I was taking some massive damage and had to pop LoH (not available to other tanks) and spam WoG later on. So in that case it's just that the NPC isn't doing enough healing or something causing some skewing.

Well, in a way, gear does matter, just not in the way of "the more geared you are, the easier it will be". As the LMG is disabled, Cloak is disabled, your ilvl / stats are scaled down terribly (Blizzard scaling system is by no means perfect), someone going in with these will be in a disadvantage vs people who bother to use an old helm with normal meta (or just using normal meta because they haven't gotten new gems), reforge and gem for the scaling system, etc.

I just wanted to mention you quoted wrong it wasn't me who made that comment, Tankitbetter did in reference to my comment :P

[RohanV]

I think Gold might be a little excessive for a casual guild just starting to raid. But Silver is a perfectly fine requirement.

[JStormrage]

He's absolutely right

Im not sure what logical reasoning you would 'require' people to get gold
Seriously.
it might be 50times easier on class A compared to B.
And doesnt exactly prove how well a player does where you're comparing a 463 scaling to people that have been raiding past that for months, some even nearly a year.

Edit: Also, you dont have gold. Which is where the issue starts to arise with different classes.
And if you want to extra pretend PG means much for recruting, you might as well go for endless 30.
Then you can stack class a raid of mages + locks

[Inthislzon]

Some of it is skill and some of it isn't. As I mentioned in the tanking challenge. Even if I put up Sacred Shield, had Shield of Righteous Buff, Guardian going and Seal of Insight up I was taking some massive damage and had to pop LoH (not available to other tanks) and spam WoG later on. So in that case it's just that the NPC isn't doing enough healing or something causing some skewing.

That's not even close to true. If having SotR + guardian with SoI requires you to LoH then gold is impossible for everyone else. Guess what? It's not.

The only wave of gold that needs some kind of CD is the start of round 10

[Phraun]

Gold proving grounds I'd consider to be a pretty low barrier of entry, which given a one night a week raid team seems to be what you're looking for. People that know what they're doing should knock it out in under an hour easily (might even one-shot it all if they're particularly good). It strikes me as something most would do anyway out of a sense of "professional" pride, if nothing else.

And honestly, it looks like you've already dodged a few bullets because of it. Anyone that would get to silver, then gquit rather than ask for help is probably not someone you want to raid with anyway.

[Speedlance]

To be honest if I were a gm was to test my guild members I'd have them do wave 50+ endless before being able to join a raid. It would test their stamina, their ability to stay focused over a long period of time. It all depends what your goal is I'd say casual clear of normal - gold requirement, semi hard core hc guild - endless 30 and top 500 raiding guild endless 50+.