protection legendaries.

[gerus]

I can calculate with mastery instead:
600 parry (600 * 0.35) + 600 mast (600 * 0.70) = 210 + 420 = 630
600 haste (600 * 1.00) + 600 crit (600 * 0.00) = 600 + 0 = 600

I haven't seen any/many high level prot paladins right now that have enough expertise lying around to not be reforging into expertise. So I think it was still a valid comparison before. This one is much closer but it still brings the point home: the tank cloak isn't at all poorly itemized according to damage smoothing metrics.

[Nillo]

I haven't seen any/many high level prot paladins right now that have enough expertise lying around to not be reforging into expertise. So I think it was still a valid comparison before. This one is much closer but it still brings the point home: the tank cloak isn't at all poorly itemized according to damage smoothing metrics.

Then show me one of those paladins who doesn't have haste on every single item.
Also crit is definitely not a zero value (not even for survival thanks to EF)

[gerus]

Let's assign crit a non-zero value then:
600 parry (600 * 0.35) + 600 mast (600 * 0.70) = 210 + 420 = 630
600 haste (600 * 1.00) + 600 crit (600 * 0.18) = 600 + 108 = 708

I'm arbitrarily giving it half of avoidance values considering I've never seen it run in the appropriate direction on a TMI simulation (potentially a bug in SimC). I'd really be surprised if it contributed that highly to damage smoothing. When we calculate the DPS cloak does in fact come ahead, but we're weighing in the same neighborhood.

My point on all this is that no matter what order you value haste, mastery, expertise, and crit, both cloaks are somewhat reasonably itemized. The DPS cloak is better itemized but the tank cloak is not the redheaded stepchild it's being made out to be. It's dangerous territory looking at the haste stat of an item and ignoring everything else.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

the bigger problem is not the useless proc but loss of a sizeable chunk of haste in exchange for next to useless stats.

You lose about 500 haste. Expertise and mastery are not useless by any stretch of the imagination.

When a tank dies, you'll likely wipe on that attempt. If you don't die, you save the time for re-killing the boss and resetting after the wipe. 5 cloak procs a night can be up to an HOUR of additional boss killing time because you didn't die and thus wipe.

[Nillo]

You lose about 500 haste. Expertise and mastery are not useless by any stretch of the imagination.

When a tank dies, you'll likely wipe on that attempt. If you don't die, you save the time for re-killing the boss and resetting after the wipe. 5 cloak procs a night can be up to an HOUR of additional boss killing time because you didn't die and thus wipe.

Just from my clear run we didn't have any wipes due to tank deaths other than Shamans and Garrosh while our Norushen kill was 15 sec before the enrage.
So eh... not buying it. Some bosses are a lot easier with the tank cloak while most of them just don't pose enough of a threat to tanks to make it worthwhile.

[rhandric]

Just from my clear run we didn't have any wipes due to tank deaths other than Shamans and Garrosh while our Norushen kill was 15 sec before the enrage.
So eh... not buying it. Some bosses are a lot easier with the tank cloak while most of them just don't pose enough of a threat to tanks to make it worthwhile.

Right. And when you're the last man standing without the tanking cloak, that tends to reduce the value of it. That said, the tanking cloak is waiting in my bags for when it's needed, and the first time I die when it's not a wipe, I'll be putting it on for that boss. Until then, the dps cloak will suffice.

[gerus]

You lose about 500 haste. Expertise and mastery are not useless by any stretch of the imagination.

It is interesting how such an assertion is controversial.

[Nillo]

You lose about 500 haste. Expertise and mastery are not useless by any stretch of the imagination.

it's 600 haste and since mastery is on both cloaks that's out of the equation anyway °_°

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

it's 600 haste and since mastery is on both cloaks that's out of the equation anyway °_°

Oh my God I was off by 100 haste, that 0.2% REALLY makes all the difference. I'll be swapping to the DPS cloak immediately!

Actually, no I won't. Because I know for a fact that we wouldn't have got to kill Nazgrim on Thursday if the cloak hadn't saved us a few wipes at Dark Shaman. And if we had needed to kill Nazgrim on Sunday we wouldn't have killed Thok that evening (because we killed that boss 5 minutes before the end of the raid, and Nazgrim + trash takes about 15 minutes.

We got at least one progression kill extra because that cloak prevented a wipe. And that, personally, is worth more than any amount of extra damage on a different cloak.

You'd think that 10m tanks would want the tank cloak even more, because they don't have the safety net of 2 extra combat resses. But there you go, they obviously prefer to see themselves doing 3k dps more than get more progression time on later bosses. Being in a raid means working for the progression of the raid. And that means taking the tanking cloak, because just one avoided wipe means you save more time than you'd save if you had more than ten times the damage of the dps cloak. Probably closer to 100x.

Anybody that considers themselves anything other than a "fun raider" and takes the DPS cloak for tanking is doing it wrong.

[Deleted]

I can calculate with mastery instead:
600 parry (600 * 0.35) + 600 mast (600 * 0.70) = 210 + 420 = 630
600 haste (600 * 1.00) + 600 crit (600 * 0.00) = 600 + 0 = 600

I haven't seen any/many high level prot paladins right now that have enough expertise lying around to not be reforging into expertise. So I think it was still a valid comparison before. This one is much closer but it still brings the point home: the tank cloak isn't at all poorly itemized according to damage smoothing metrics.

To first issue is that your stat values are still your own opinion of how much value the stats have. For example, my T15 stat weights I used was roughly (dont remember crit/mastery etc precisely)

hit 4.0
exp soft 3.9
haste 3.0
exp hard 2.9
Stam 2.0
Mastery 1.75
Crit 1.75
Str 1.5
Parry 0
Dodge 0

I dont remember the exact values I used for Str, crit, mast and stam, but those are "rough". That was for T15 though, going into T16 obviously stat values are changing around, parry and dodge actually have value now, but you get my point. Argueing over itemization is a matter of how much you value each stat personally. There is no cheat sheet for tanks.

That said, the problem with the tanking cloak is that it has more expertise than the dps one, this means you are balancing your expertise cap around the dps cloak, not the tank one, so when equipping the tank one you are fairly likely to overcap. Now of course it is possible to reforge for this, but imo reforging between each boss is a problem, and the only thing you would gain is either crit or mastery. So whenever I equip my tank cloak now, all that expertise just go over the cap. If I was on a serious progression boss I would probably go and reforge, but in that case I would gain about 450-500 crit/expertise at best. So really you are comparing 600 haste + 600 crit vs 600 parry and 400-500 crit/mastery.

Oh my God I was off by 100 haste, that 0.2% REALLY makes all the difference. I'll be swapping to the DPS cloak immediately!

Actually, no I won't. Because I know for a fact that we wouldn't have got to kill Nazgrim on Thursday if the cloak hadn't saved us a few wipes at Dark Shaman. And if we had needed to kill Nazgrim on Sunday we wouldn't have killed Thok that evening (because we killed that boss 5 minutes before the end of the raid, and Nazgrim + trash takes about 15 minutes.

We got at least one progression kill extra because that cloak prevented a wipe. And that, personally, is worth more than any amount of extra damage on a different cloak.

You'd think that 10m tanks would want the tank cloak even more, because they don't have the safety net of 2 extra combat resses. But there you go, they obviously prefer to see themselves doing 3k dps more than get more progression time on later bosses. Being in a raid means working for the progression of the raid. And that means taking the tanking cloak, because just one avoided wipe means you save more time than you'd save if you had more than ten times the damage of the dps cloak. Probably closer to 100x.

Anybody that considers themselves anything other than a "fun raider" and takes the DPS cloak for tanking is doing it wrong.

Again, the question is not 'Should I use the dps cloak or the tanking cloak?', it is for which fight you should use which cloak. I do not think anyone here is argueing that you should never equip the tank cloak because you gain 5% dps from the dps cloak.

I do not know how much the difference is in tank damage in-take between 10 and 25 man this tier, but I am suspecting that it is substantial. 10 man tanks are naturally not more inclined to pick tank cloak due to the dps boost being more important in 10 man and tank deaths less likely to occur.
As a tank on a lot of fights, it is almost impossible to die, and anything other than you being the last man standing is highly unlikely.

Just to mention a few stuff that happened this reset. Entire raid wiped on Noru'shen at 11%, I survive until the enrage and manage to bring the boss down to 6% myself with all the adds and stacks on myself, no healer alive etc. If it was not for the enrage I would have soloed the last 11%. On Galakras our entire raid died at 13%, I soloed the last 13%, which took almost a minute. On Spoils, both our healers went into the same zone, which lead to us being 1 tank 3 dps in our room, the othe room even had the enhance shaman so no real off-healer in our room, we survived the entire room with 50 seconds left on the timer but wiped when the other group wiped on their side. It was no problem as a tank to heal myself and the raid on that fight without any healer. In fact, say you have 2 paladin tanks and 2 people dps with just a little off-heals, going 2 tanks 8 dps is completely viable on spoils. There is just no damage going out if executed well.
On Thok, our entire raid died at around 14%, I brought the boss down alone to 8% before I got overwhelmed by the damage, was alive well over a minute after the entire raid wiped. To be honest I could probably have gotten it down to 6%, but the thing was when the raid died I had just used guardian and stuff so had no cooldowns at all when soloing those 6% off the boss.
Same goes for siegebreaker. The other tank died at 75% (no cr available), I solo tanked the boss down to 25% but dpsers started dying, if it was not for dead dpsers it would probably have died.

Now there are so many other examples when the entire raid died at 60%~ and I could have stayed alive and almost solo 5% of the bosses.

So if I look at my personal cloak opinion on bosses.

Immersus - 2 tanks, dps cloak. 1 tank, tank cloak if you do not have sufficient dps, in which case dps cloak.
Protectors - Dps cloak, what tank damage?
Norushen - Tank cloak if you and/or your co-tank has issue with the proving grounds, but if that is no issue, dps cloak.
Sha of Prida - Dps cloak
Galakras - Dps cloak
Iron Jug - Tank cloak
Dark Shams - Tank cloak
Nazgrim - Dps cloak
Malkorok - Tank cloak imo, maybe dps cloak
Spoils - Dps cloak
Thok - Probably tank cloak, maybe dps cloak
Blackfuse - Tank cloak if you are using it as an extra CD for stacks, otherwise dps cloak
Paragons - Dps cloak, what tank damage?
Garrosh - Tank cloak

What cloak you use needs to depend on the fight, there is no 1 cloak to rule them all.

[Nillo]

Oh my God I was off by 100 haste, that 0.2% REALLY makes all the difference. I'll be swapping to the DPS cloak immediately!

Yep I think you weren't even bothering that's why you said well 595 looks like 500. Do you also go into the store and buy stuff for 1.95 thinking it's only 1.00?

Actually, no I won't. Because I know for a fact that we wouldn't have got to kill Nazgrim on Thursday if the cloak hadn't saved us a few wipes at Dark Shaman. And if we had needed to kill Nazgrim on Sunday we wouldn't have killed Thok that evening (because we killed that boss 5 minutes before the end of the raid, and Nazgrim + trash takes about 15 minutes.

Except I already said I'd use it on Dark Shamans. And well we would have had a 2% wipe on Norushen without the dps cloak so ehh

We got at least one progression kill extra because that cloak prevented a wipe. And that, personally, is worth more than any amount of extra damage on a different cloak.

You'd think that 10m tanks would want the tank cloak even more, because they don't have the safety net of 2 extra combat resses. But there you go, they obviously prefer to see themselves doing 3k dps more than get more progression time on later bosses. Being in a raid means working for the progression of the raid. And that means taking the tanking cloak, because just one avoided wipe means you save more time than you'd save if you had more than ten times the damage of the dps cloak. Probably closer to 100x.

The thing is you really just don't die as a 10m tank unless you mess up badly and tank deaths often mean wipes anyway no matter if you have brs or not because the boss runs rampant.

Anybody that considers themselves anything other than a "fun raider" and takes the DPS cloak for tanking is doing it wrong.

How dare people have fun while tanking

- - - Updated - - -

Malkorok - Tank cloak imo, maybe dps cloak
Thok - Probably tank cloak, maybe dps cloak

Why Malkorok?
And solo tanking Thok with the tank cloak might be worth a try :P

[gerus]

To first issue is that your stat values are still your own opinion of how much value the stats have. For example, my T15 stat weights I used was roughly (dont remember crit/mastery etc precisely)

hit 4.0
exp soft 3.9
haste 3.0
exp hard 2.9
Stam 2.0
Mastery 1.75
Crit 1.75
Str 1.5
Parry 0
Dodge 0

I dont remember the exact values I used for Str, crit, mast and stam, but those are "rough". That was for T15 though, going into T16 obviously stat values are changing around, parry and dodge actually have value now, but you get my point. Argueing over itemization is a matter of how much you value each stat personally. There is no cheat sheet for tanks.

Actually, I don't think it's a problem when I use stat weight numbers to indicate I think the tanking cloak is undervalued and then you plug your own in and give a comparison. It lets us have a discussion on how we're valuing the cloak and a comparison mechanism other than using adjectives such as 'useless' in reference to stats. You didn't make that statement so I'm not holding it on you. I know you value both cloaks in different situations.

From your plug in of numbers I can see why opinions differ. I think in general your stat weights over value crit, under value mastery/parry/dodge. Parry and dodge have always had a non-zero contribution to damage smoothing. At lower values of haste I'd grant that mastery is probably somewhat accurately valued at 67% of haste but I think its probably undervalued at high levels of haste.

That said, the problem with the tanking cloak is that it has more expertise than the dps one, this means you are balancing your expertise cap around the dps cloak, not the tank one, so when equipping the tank one you are fairly likely to overcap. Now of course it is possible to reforge for this, but imo reforging between each boss is a problem, and the only thing you would gain is either crit or mastery. So whenever I equip my tank cloak now, all that expertise just go over the cap. If I was on a serious progression boss I would probably go and reforge, but in that case I would gain about 450-500 crit/expertise at best. So really you are comparing 600 haste + 600 crit vs 600 parry and 400-500 crit/mastery.

Personally, I'd reforge out the 300 or so expertise. There is a lot of outdoor area in this instance and my monk co-tank likes to scumbag trash packs so getting time to reforge isn't a problem for me. I'm not seeing a ton of tanks that can get expertise hard cap solely from gear so it's likely reforging helps you get back some haste/mastery from the swap away from the DPS cloak. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. I don't think discounting the fact that there is additional expertise on the item because you won't reforge it is entirely fair though.

I think there's a time and a place for both cloaks. What I've been trying to combat is the notion that the tank cloak is terribly itemized and is discounted out of hand for that reason. Haste is great. Haste isn't the one thing you should look at when comparing items.

[Deleted]

Why Malkorok?
And solo tanking Thok with the tank cloak might be worth a try :P

I may be wrong abot Malorok, I think it honestly was because my co-tank was terrible. Having the proc on a fight where you "cant be healed" felt nice. Very likely I would have used dps cloak, but my co-tank was extremely inclined to die, leading me to solo tank the boss.

In all honesty, there was several fights that I used the tank cloak on where I probably should not have, just because I had the mindset "I think my off-tank is going do tie", and the tank cloak helped me solo tank the fights. The other tank I had this week was beyond words how he managed to die on some fights I do not know.

It is doable to solo tank Thok without tank cloak, but having it felt nice.

[tanktank]

Can someone run the math on Xing-Ho, Breath of Yu'lon. Unless someone made a boo-boo, is this viable for prot with sp scaling as high veng levels.

Edit: ugh, I can't spell boo-boo when I just woke up. I noticed Slootbag used it on a few of the fights and was wondering the implications for aoe tanking for adds.

[tanktank]

So no one has any insight on wearing this cloak while tanking?

[Xucuroz]

Its a good idea to have both cloaks but generally i've been using the tank cloak more often than the dps one (Except on AoE packs/bosses that i can affectively cleave). That is, until i generally feel comfortable, then i'll probably use the dps cloak and only switch to the tank cloak on fights i feel its needed. As other people have pointed out in other threads, the tank cloak is exactly like having wotlk Argent defender, which can be awesome at times.

Anyways with current gear and replacing more pieces with SoO loot, i'm losing a ton of expertise, so the tank cloak is actually allowing me to gain haste in other places, that i might otherwise have to reforge or gem differently.

[tanktank]

You should check my post again. That is the caster legendary, not the melee dps. I have the melee and tank one. I was wondering what kind of damage we would get with that cloak.

[gerus]

You should check my post again. That is the caster legendary, not the melee dps. I have the melee and tank one. I was wondering what kind of damage we would get with that cloak.

I don't plan on purchasing the cloak to even determine if our spells can trigger the effect. This is for two reasons:
1) it seems like this doesn't even work for MW monks or other offensive healer abilities. My guess is prot abilities aren't on the whitelist either.
2) this is one minor hotfix from going away.

I haven't been able to find anyone who has confirmed we can trigger the proc. If you'd like to confirm it then go nuts

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I've got better things to do with 7085 gold than to buy the caster cloak, because as soon as more than a few people do that, it'll get nerfed and I'll be 7k out of pocket.

[Deja Thoris]

I may be wrong abot Malorok, I think it honestly was because my co-tank was terrible. Having the proc on a fight where you "cant be healed" felt nice. Very likely I would have used dps cloak, but my co-tank was extremely inclined to die, leading me to solo tank the boss.

In all honesty, there was several fights that I used the tank cloak on where I probably should not have, just because I had the mindset "I think my off-tank is going do tie", and the tank cloak helped me solo tank the fights. The other tank I had this week was beyond words how he managed to die on some fights I do not know.

It is doable to solo tank Thok without tank cloak, but having it felt nice.

It's nice on malkorok for when you have 12 stacks of the debuff and someone fails to soak a swirl. I got gibbed because of that (you take increased damage from the swirl explosion) where the rest of the raid survived.

I'll choose to use the tank cloak on a case by case basis. For instance for spoils normal I can't see myself dieing, same with Galakras.