Few questions regarding 2H Frost DKs

[Vlarkin]

Alright, so to start off. I'm currently only ilvl 493. Unenchanted/Gemmed since I hit 90 yesterday and want to get ToT LFR done before I spend any gold. (Just in case I get upgrades). So my DPS already is less than it could be. But, my question is regarding the priority and I guess rune management.

So far, I think i'm TERRIBLE and managing my runes. I spend most of the time watching for KM procs, watching RP, or cooldowns for doing things such as the Plague Leech+Howling Blast combo, that I cannot at all pay attention to my Runes as well as watch boss mechanics.. And my MAIN issue is two things.

One, I'm almost ALWAYS wasting KM procs on Frost Strike. Most of the time, on accident because it procs so fast.. and it nearly impossible for me to actually tell when one would proc, sometimes it is literally as I press Frost Strike, thus wasting the KM.. so how do I fix this? Because it seems like I'm losing a LOT of dps on wasting KM procs on Frost Strike instead of Obliterate.

Also, the other main issue I have, is I get Rune starved so easily.. mostly from spamming Obliterate and usually this ends up ruining my DPS since I have to sit and wait with no skills to even use.. and this also ties into when Obliterate has 3 seconds until I can use it, but I get a KM proc, do I wait for Obliterate? It seems like it would be worth it, but at the same time, might not be worth it since I could Frost Strike and potentially get another KM proc right as that Obliterate is ready...

I realize these MIGHT be answered in a post somewhere, but I am far too overwhelmed with information as it is to go digging.. plus some of the info might be outdated as things have changed in this new patch...

Thanks for answering

[Deleted]

One, I'm almost ALWAYS wasting KM procs on Frost Strike...

2H frost is one of the most forgiving specs, reason being you're NOT wasting KM procs on frost strike. If you waited for an Obliterate to be available then you're not performing an available action (frost strike) that can proc your level 75 talent and regen more runes.

Waiting = Getting more damage/burst in the short-term.
Using FS = Getting more resources (and therefore damage) over the course of the fight.

Most guides nowadays say "crit is better than haste for 2H frost at all gear levels" but if you're trying to play 2H frost with something like 4K haste then it's going to feel terrible. Gem/reforge for an amount of haste that doesn't have you feeling rune starved for the majority of the time (7K maybe).

The new PL is great for 2H but, as someone starting out as a DK (and having issues with rune management) you could always try UB for a while and forget about PL timing.

Don't worry so much about your runes either - you use them all on Obliterate (pretty much) so just make sure you're not capping runic power.

[Vlarkin]

2H frost is one of the most forgiving specs, reason being you're NOT wasting KM procs on frost strike. If you waited for an Obliterate to be available then you're not performing an available action (frost strike) that can proc your level 75 talent and regen more runes.

Waiting = Getting more damage/burst in the short-term.
Using FS = Getting more resources (and therefore damage) over the course of the fight.

Most guides nowadays say "crit is better than haste for 2H frost at all gear levels" but if you're trying to play 2H frost with something like 4K haste then it's going to feel terrible. Gem/reforge for an amount of haste that doesn't have you feeling rune starved for the majority of the time (7K maybe).

The new PL is great for 2H but, as someone starting out as a DK (and having issues with rune management) you could always try UB for a while and forget about PL timing.

Don't worry so much about your runes either - you use them all on Obliterate (pretty much) so just make sure you're not capping runic power.

Well, for starters, the only reason I'm actually 2H atm is because I have not gotten two good 1H weapons yet. I think DW is still stronger at all gear levels? Or maybe that was just in SoO gear.

But yeah onto your point, I see what you mean. I am currently using PL since I think it would be best for me to get used to using it correctly now. I still use Runic Empowerment since I do not think I can properly use Blood Tap right now. (Used to use it macro'd with Frost Strike but found out that is not using it to be the best of its ability).

And yeah currently, I have not even reforged since I am just waiting until I get all of the LFRs finished so that I do not waste gold. But yeah at the moment I need to go for Haste because I'm almost every boss fight, sitting there for a bit twiddling my thumbs because i'm totally starved.

Thanks for the help

- - - Updated - - -

Bump. :/ I'd really like some more input for this.

[Darkfriend]

Well, for starters, the only reason I'm actually 2H atm is because I have not gotten two good 1H weapons yet. I think DW is still stronger at all gear levels? Or maybe that was just in SoO gear.

But yeah onto your point, I see what you mean. I am currently using PL since I think it would be best for me to get used to using it correctly now. I still use Runic Empowerment since I do not think I can properly use Blood Tap right now. (Used to use it macro'd with Frost Strike but found out that is not using it to be the best of its ability).

And yeah currently, I have not even reforged since I am just waiting until I get all of the LFRs finished so that I do not waste gold. But yeah at the moment I need to go for Haste because I'm almost every boss fight, sitting there for a bit twiddling my thumbs because i'm totally starved.

Thanks for the help

- - - Updated - - -

Bump. :/ I'd really like some more input for this.

IDk if DW is stronger at all gear levels, it's once it gets the 4p +thoks that it really gains momentium.

[epLe]

using a 2H is much easier than DW as you don't really have to monitor the runes to same extent.

Just watch the swing timer to know when you will potentially get a killing blow.
(to waste less of em at frost strike.)

[Deatheryn]

using a 2H is much easier than DW as you don't really have to monitor the runes to same extent.

Just watch the swing timer to know when you will potentially get a killing blow.
(to waste less of em at frost strike.)

2H is easier than DW, really? All DW consists of is spamming HB and FS, only using OB to burn unholy runes.

[epLe]

2H is easier than DW, really? All DW consists of is spamming HB and FS, only using OB to burn unholy runes.

Easier is maybe a personal oppinion, but I find it easier to only watch for KM/RIME/ procs and RP for 2H.
Watching runes to use only UH for obliterate I find way more distracting in comparison.

[Trubo]

2H is easier than DW, really? All DW consists of is spamming HB and FS, only using OB to burn unholy runes.

Isn't using Plague Strike/D&D better for unholy runes over Obliterate? Thought I read someone mathing it out to be about a 700 DPS increase (probably not enough of a gain to merit asking this.)

[Soisoisoi]

2H is easier than DW, really? All DW consists of is spamming HB and FS, only using OB to burn unholy runes.

And all 2H has to do is spam Ob/FS, occasionally using HB on Rime.

Neither is harder than the other. What makes it harder (more fun, imo) are the talents you pick. BT + PL or RE/RC + UB. The latter will make it so you don't have to do fuck all but in doing so you won't gain anything from playing smart and you won't get fucked over by RNG as much.

Isn't using Plague Strike/D&D better for unholy runes over Obliterate? Thought I read someone mathing it out to be about a 700 DPS increase (probably not enough of a gain to merit asking this.)

Last I read it wasn't since they made HB 15% instead of 30%. I think it's a -slight- DPS loss for an "easier" priority. Up to you.

Think this is updated: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t131138-...g_unholy_runes

Make sure to read down to, and including the note below. That's the main point.

[Schizoide]

The "mastersimple" DW priority is a substantial DPS loss until you get solid T16N gear. I simmed it earlier in the thread, it was something like a 5% loss. If you're a LFR/flex raider or if it's early in the patch (as it is now) and you don't have gear yet, you shouldn't use it.

And like you said, even in awesome gear it's still a DPS loss, just a vanishingly small one. And people in awesome gear probably care about that loss, even if it's <1%. They're the type of person with non-macroed blood tap and speccing plague leech.

Just watch the swing timer to know when you will potentially get a killing blow.
(to waste less of em at frost strike.)

This has been proven wrong 1000 times over. Please read up on it.

Unless you're talking about PvP, but that's a whole different discussion.

[Vlarkin]

The "mastersimple" DW priority is a substantial DPS loss until you get solid T16N gear. I simmed it earlier in the thread, it was something like a 5% loss. If you're a LFR/flex raider or if it's early in the patch (as it is now) and you don't have gear yet, you shouldn't use it.

And like you said, even in awesome gear it's still a DPS loss, just a vanishingly small one. And people in awesome gear probably care about that loss, even if it's <1%. They're the type of person with non-macroed blood tap and speccing plague leech.


This has been proven wrong 1000 times over. Please read up on it.

Unless you're talking about PvP, but that's a whole different discussion.

Ok so the general consensus I am getting here is to stick with 2H for right now. Currently I've gotten to 502 ilvl..(TERRIBLE luck in 12/12 ToT bonus rolling on every boss yesterday... got no upgrades) And I reforged essentially all into Haste. Seemed to do ok, I was 499 when I went in there and was pulling 90k, most of the time well over 100k depending on the fight.

Any tips on how to start using Blood Tap correctly? I think I've got Plague Leech down and want to start using Blood Tap like a pro. Also I will start simming as my gear gets a little better, its just i'm currently at ToT ilvl range, so I find it sort of a waste of my time to be simming every upgrade I get, as I do remember Haste during ToT patch was the way to go anyways.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...arkin/advanced (Here is my armory in case you or anyone else wanted to check)

Now that I think about it though, I do see my current trinkets screwing me over since they are both Haste proc trinkets, I feel as if as certain times, my Haste will be insanely high, even for my gear level.. but when the trinkets are on cooldown.. I will be having Rune generation problems like I was before.. :/

[Schizoide]

As to whether you'd be better off with 2H versus DW, that depends on your gear. Import into simcraft and do 10k runs to compare. If you don't want to bother simming, you don't really care, so do whatever you want, I guess?

Macro blood tap to Frost Strike.

[Vlarkin]

Macro blood tap to Frost Strike.

From what I understand though, this is misusing Blood Tap.. I used to do this but from what I've been reading it is better to use RE or RC since misuse of BT is making it quite useless, since its basically ondemand free rune right?

[Deleted]

From what I understand though, this is misusing Blood Tap.. I used to do this but from what I've been reading it is better to use RE or RC since misuse of BT is making it quite useless, since its basically ondemand free rune right?

Yes, from my understanding, the reason of BT being better is that you can stack up more runes for when your Pillar of Frost is off CDs, and if you're just macroing it to Frost Strike you're better off using RE. I'm not 100% on this so anyone feel free to correct me.

[Vlarkin]

Yes, from my understanding, the reason of BT being better is that you can stack up more runes for when your Pillar of Frost is off CDs, and if you're just macroing it to Frost Strike you're better off using RE. I'm not 100% on this so anyone feel free to correct me.

Yeah its just what I read somewhere. Not actually sure why its bad to macro BT into FS other than the fact that it would be better used on demand. Which I want to start doing..

Btw, THAD=#1

[Schizoide]

That's wrong. Macroed BT sims higher than ungamed RE, gamed RE, and RC.

Unmacroed BT is slightly higher yet, but if you mess it up even once you lose that advantage-- and it is a very small advantage best case scenario.

Actually all of them are pretty close, but macroed BT is very easy to do and the second-best performing, so you might as well do it.

[Vlarkin]

Hmmm ok. Not that I don't believe you or anything!! I'd just like some more input on this if that is true or not.

[ferris]

That's wrong. Macroed BT sims higher than ungamed RE, gamed RE, and RC.

Unmacroed BT is slightly higher yet, but if you mess it up even once you lose that advantage-- and it is a very small advantage best case scenario.

Actually all of them are pretty close, but macroed BT is very easy to do and the second-best performing, so you might as well do it.

can we get some sims on this? if this is true i do like easy and good.

[Schizoide]

Yes, search the forums for my posts. I'm not going to look it up for you.

[Darkfriend]

2H is easier than DW, really? All DW consists of is spamming HB and FS, only using OB to burn unholy runes.

Honestly, 2h all you have to do is spam OB whenever you can, as long as you don't cap RP or hit it when you have a rime proc. DW is a bit more complex, not because it is necessarily harder, although it is a bit more complex (you can't spam FS as much, etc) but because you gain by doing extra things that 2h doesn't really benefit as much from.