slight marks and sv buff? whaaaat?

[Deleted]

no but seriously as far as your sims go conjor the only thing that baffles me is toth being higher than DB in a patchwerk sim setting for BM.

On my Malk HC kill this week my ToTH uptime was 73% and I've had it as high as 83% on some fights. The ability to dump in small chunks is a significant dps gain. A lot of people wont realise that you aren't actually meant to use all the charges, it is the convenience that is the biggest gain. You will frequently encounter situations where major spells are coming off cooldown and spending 30 focus would cause delay, but spending 10 is no problem. It all comes down to smart focus management.

[Skillslam]

Why does raidbots show BM absolutely destroying SV on every fight if they're so neck & neck? Do not enough people have the right trinkets/tier bonuses yet

[Sre]

Why does raidbots show BM absolutely destroying SV on every fight if they're so neck & neck? Do not enough people have the right trinkets/tier bonuses yet

SV shines with the 4 PC and is made even better with a dark shamans trinket.

[Deleted]

Why does raidbots show BM absolutely destroying SV on every fight if they're so neck & neck? Do not enough people have the right trinkets/tier bonuses yet

Because lots of people play BM?

[Woobels]

Why does raidbots show BM absolutely destroying SV on every fight if they're so neck & neck? Do not enough people have the right trinkets/tier bonuses yet

Sample size, mostly.

[Conjor]

Why does raidbots show BM absolutely destroying SV on every fight if they're so neck & neck? Do not enough people have the right trinkets/tier bonuses yet

Everyone, including most top-end raiders have flocked to BM this expansion and want to stick with what works. The belief that BM is the best single-target, while could be true with some peoples gear setup, isn't universally true. But those with the proper gear for an optimal SV setup can't be bothered to do enough research to realize it.

Either way, all specs are very close if reforged properly and played properly.

[Saoron]

T16 2set synergising with my gear setup.

Yea but was this before you made the leap to crit > mast >= haste ? cuz if you sim again, i bet DB pulls ahead cuz of all that mastery.

[Conjor]

Yea but was this before you made the leap to crit > mast >= haste ? cuz if you sim again, i bet DB pulls ahead cuz of all that mastery.

Not quiet. Simc may report mastery as being the best stat for DB specs, but pulling all that crit away hurts more than the weights let on. Even using a mastery heavy build, or a mastery focused build leads to DPS losses across the board. The 2set just makes TotH too good. Pushing any kind of damage to your pet (via fervor or via DB) doesn't make up for the loss of RF uptime.

[Adaon]

Conjor, do you have a link somewhere for your modified MM profile? When I run a FD sim with MM for instance, I'll usually leave the shot priority as-is, but make changes such as Steady in pairs with ST <= 4 seconds, disable Arcane/Glaive during CA, and set Aimed to a cast time where it is always the focus dump. Is that similar to your simc profile?

[Conjor]

Conjor, do you have a link somewhere for your modified MM profile? When I run a FD sim with MM for instance, I'll usually leave the shot priority as-is, but make changes such as Steady in pairs with ST <= 4 seconds, disable Arcane/Glaive during CA, and set Aimed to a cast time where it is always the focus dump. Is that similar to your simc profile?

I'm reluctant to give out my custom profile because I'm sure people will bombard me with "this is a dps loss for me, ur profile suxorz". MM is so gear dependent that I doubt it is possible to write a profile that will maximize with everyone's gear setups.

[bewsh]

I don't think there is an item level breakpoint where it becomes better. Personally, I've gotten really unlucky with drops in Siege and the only thing I've gotten was the X-box off of Fallen Prots. Because my weapon is vastly better than the rest of my gear, MM is simming 6-7k higher for me.

This really goes out to all hunters on these forums: Since all 3 specs are so close to each other, it's really up to you to sim it to figure out what spec will yield the most dps. Although they are all so close that I don't think it matters that much. Personally I'm playing MM for ST fights such as Sha, Iron Juggs, Thok, and maybe Siegecrafter. Then, I'm playing SV for pretty much everything else.

I've not really been all that unlucky. I was curious if there was a wdps threshold or breakpoint because I still see a 5-7k+ loss (well my last round of sims were). To me it is very apparent in live play as well but that could be mostly a function of rusty MM play. I recognize the gear dependencies I was more looking for the general wdps dependency value, if it existed.

[Conjor]

I've not really been all that unlucky. I was curious if there was a wdps threshold or breakpoint because I still see a 5-7k+ loss (well my last round of sims were). To me it is very apparent in live play as well but that could be mostly a function of rusty MM play. I recognize the gear dependencies I was more looking for the general wdps dependency value, if it existed.

There are way to many factors to even begin to think that there is a magical WDPS number that makes MM better. It is a matter of having a better wep then the majority of the rest of your gear and factoring in the high WDPS scaling of MM that makes it better for some players.

[Saoron]

Not quiet. Simc may report mastery as being the best stat for DB specs, but pulling all that crit away hurts more than the weights let on. Even using a mastery heavy build, or a mastery focused build leads to DPS losses across the board. The 2set just makes TotH too good. Pushing any kind of damage to your pet (via fervor or via DB) doesn't make up for the loss of RF uptime.

What are you talking about ? I didn't mean mast > crit > haste.. i meant your current reforge of crit > mast >= haste.. so you're interchanging haste and mastery.. And RF is no longer as good a cd as it used to be last tier, which is why in your profiles, TotH was only 2k ahead of DB.. If you still have the numbers, post the reforges you used for those profiles.. it'll clear up some of my confusion.. PM them if you don't want people to draw the wrong conclusions.

[Conjor]

What are you talking about ? I didn't mean mast > crit > haste.. i meant your current reforge of crit > mast >= haste.. so you're interchanging haste and mastery.. And RF is no longer as good a cd as it used to be last tier, which is why in your profiles, TotH was only 2k ahead of DB.. If you still have the numbers, post the reforges you used for those profiles.. it'll clear up some of my confusion.. PM them if you don't want people to draw the wrong conclusions.

Every other sim that I see reports mastery as the top BM stat using DB or Fervor. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned a mastery focused build. The same comment applies to a crit > mastery > haste build.

Where are you getting this mastery >= haste from? From the values on my armory? Just because they are close doesn't mean I am trying to balance them or aim for an equalization on their values...

And this whole idea that "rapid fire is a bad CD" just baffles me. It obviously is no Wings, but it is a DPS increase none-the-less. And with that point, maximizing cool down uptimes and usefulness should be the aim of anyone wanting to maximize their performance. You can scoff at 2k DPS all you want, and try to claim that a higher mastery build will get you better performance with DB over TotH, but that is not what I see with my numbers.

[Saoron]

Every other sim that I see reports mastery as the top BM stat using DB or Fervor. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned a mastery focused build. The same comment applies to a crit > mastery > haste build.

Where are you getting this mastery >= haste from? From the values on my armory? Just because they are close doesn't mean I am trying to balance them or aim for an equalization on their values...

Yea I was getting mastery as the top stat as well but that was right out of t15 with like 3k mastery and tons of crit and haste.. and yea I was getting them from your current set up.. I assumed that you used that priority to reforge with an addon, since that is an obvious assumption lol.. even if you weren't, you're ending up with crit > mast >= haste for SV currently (dunnu whether you were using it for raids or not)..

And this whole idea that "rapid fire is a bad CD" just baffles me. It obviously is no Wings, but it is a DPS increase none-the-less. And with that point, maximizing cool down uptimes and usefulness should be the aim of anyone wanting to maximize their performance. You can scoff at 2k DPS all you want, and try to claim that a higher mastery build will get you better performance with DB over TotH, but that is not what I see with my numbers.

Umm when did I say RF was a bad CD ? I said "And RF is no longer AS good a cd as it USED to be last tier".. And there is no argument there.. it was a straight up trinket booster plus the focus regen and all the good stuff.. It's just lower in potency now since the rppm nerf. A dps CD is still a dps CD.

All I am asking is what reforge did you use for the toth profile and the db profile in your sims.. that is all.

[Danshot]

yo conjor, what's your cobra shot cast time?

[Tehterokkar]

@Conjor

I tested MM on Sha of Pride, Juggernaut, Dark Shaman, Malkorok and Thok(Also Galakras, but I AFK'd the add phase) last night and it was quite fun. I was STRICLY using Aimed Shot as my focus dump. Talents were DB/aMoC/GT, with the exception of Fervor+Barrage on Dark Shaman as I'm in add duty.

Quite a few times on pull, I managed to get off an Aimed+Chimera combo at exactly 10 stacks of Renataki, which made me happy .

Also I had a fair share of the focus capping issue, since MM gains a lot more focus than the other specs and Focus dump is also much higher cost.

Logs here if need: Clicky

Edit: Forgot to mention, these are without 4pc, I got 4pc(and then 5pc) from the later bosses where I was SV.

[Azortharion]

I'll be looking into Marks when I'm off work. I've been reluctant to do so because I haven't played it at all in MoP, but I'll have to learn it some day, and I have a very high iLvl weapon for my tier of progression. Else I wouldn't touch it, though.

This'll be fun.

[dzidek]

I found this graph on warlock forums:



Lock in bottom. Cool But what is more interesting? Check who is in top3 spot

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

How cool is that

[Dracodraco]

I found this graph on warlock forums:



Lock in bottom. Cool But what is more interesting? Check who is in top3 spot

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

How cool is that

Welcome to normal modes. Will be good now that they've started to seperate normals/heroics on WoL, can get some real data.