Nerf arms warriors thread

[Ferg]

Wanna see the numbers? (players over 2.2k on 3s):

Warrior Arms 15.4 % (112)
Priest Holy 13.2 % (96)
Mage Frost 10.3 % (75)
Shaman Restoration 9.9 % (72)
Warlock Affliction 6.0 % (44)
Death Knight Unholy 5.1 % (37)
Druid Restoration 4.3 % (31)
Druid Feral 4.0 % (29)
Rogue Subtlety 3.8 % (28)
Paladin Holy 3.8 % (28)
Priest Shadow 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Marksmanship 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Survival 3.2 % (23)
Shaman Elemental 3.0 % (22)
Shaman Enhancement 2.5 % (18)

On total class representation the WL is 7% and the warrior is 15%.

It has 50% more representation than the second best DPS. I wonder how many % of top players need to be a warrior so that Flasks admits that his class is OP...

Name a class that synergizes with more teams than Warriors do. We are one of the most versatile classes in the game, and are just now becoming playable again. That in and of itself is going to make our rep seem high, a ton of people are trying their warriors out right now.

I play a warrior myself (among 6 other 90s) and I've only just started dinking around this season and I'm already 16-2 in 2s. Granted, they don't balance around 2s, but now that warriors aren't gimped when going defensive, people don't know how to play against us...now that we're able to keep up pressure while being defensive (like literally every other class in the game is able to) people panic and don't play correctly.

Is our damage a little high? Maybe, but that's just because Grievous weps are just now becoming available and Warriors are the #1 class in the game that scales off of weapon damage. Give it a few weeks. It will even out. I promise.

[Mr. Casual]

Not requiring shields and stance dancing has taken a lot of the skill needed to play a warrior away.

no. having to macro to shield wall spell reflect doesnt take skill, its just clunky

[Knolan]

Name a class that synergizes with more teams than Warriors do. We are one of the most versatile classes in the game, and are just now becoming playable again. That in and of itself is going to make our rep seem high, a ton of people are trying their warriors out right now.

I play a warrior myself (among 6 other 90s) and I've only just started dinking around this season and I'm already 16-2 in 2s. Granted, they don't balance around 2s, but now that warriors aren't gimped when going defensive, people don't know how to play against us...now that we're able to keep up pressure while being defensive (like literally every other class in the game is able to) people panic and don't play correctly.

Is our damage a little high? Maybe, but that's just because Grievous weps are just now becoming available and Warriors are the #1 class in the game that scales off of weapon damage. Give it a few weeks. It will even out. I promise.

Warrior is probably the best dps gain by weapon (maybe feral is better). So I don't really believe it will even out. Also, please enlight me what is the right way to play against a warrior? Certainly not with a caster since they have 2 interrupts, two charges, stun and reflect, not to mention root and fear removal. As a melee, stun + reckstorm is pretty retarded.

As for synergy, it is the most stupid argument ever, god comp, RMP and LSD 2.0 have the great synergy and they aren't very popular right now (compered to KFC and TSG) because they lack the ridiculous amount of damage, pressure and survival a warrior brings.

[Masochist]

It has 50% more representation than the second best DPS. I wonder how many % of top players need to be a warrior so that Flasks admits that his class is OP...

i wonder how many times you have to post rep numbers to realize that representation is nothing more than a statistic that indicates what people are playing

Prepare for a wall of QQ and bad arguments "proving" warriors are bad.

prepare for a QQ storm from people who think arguing about something on a forum is going to change it

[Ferg]

Warrior is probably the best dps gain by weapon (maybe feral is better). So I don't really believe it will even out. Also, please enlight me what is the right way to play against a warrior? Certainly not with a caster since they have 2 interrupts, two charges, stun and reflect, not to mention root and fear removal. As a melee, stun + reckstorm is pretty retarded.

As for synergy, it is the most stupid argument ever, god comp, RMP and LSD 2.0 have the great synergy and they aren't very popular right now (compered to KFC and TSG) because they lack the ridiculous amount of damage, pressure and survival a warrior brings.

Honestly the correct way to play against a warrior is to train him until he dies. After DBTS and Shield Wall are down, there isn't much we can do other than sit in Defensive Stance and hope you don't put out enough dps to kill us.

(Also, when you say "stun + reckstorm", are you talking about charge stun? Because you can't have Shockwave and Bladestorm)

And I think you might have misinterpreted what I meant by synergy. I mean you can put a warrior on pretty much any team and the team will do okay. You can't do that with most classes. We are versatile, and as such, our rep will naturally be high when we are viable, because we have a lot of different teams to choose from.

[Roose]

no. having to macro to shield wall spell reflect doesnt take skill, its just clunky

How is it hard to understand that deciding when to use said macro does require skill?

This whole bullshit about it being a QoL improvement is just absurd. Those types of improvements do not usually make classes stronger, just less cumbersome. All the recent changes to warriors did was make them more powerful and easier to play.

[Pua]

How is it hard to understand that deciding when to use said macro does require skill?

This whole bullshit about it being a QoL improvement is just absurd. Those types of improvements do not usually make classes stronger, just less cumbersome. All the recent changes to warriors did was make them more powerful and easier to play.

Correct.

Going sword and board was a choice to sacrifice damage for defence; it's got nothing to do with macros. Let's say, for example, the game automatically equipped a sword and shield for you if you pressed Shield Wall (and didn't if you didn't have said items in your bag). That would be a quality of life change.

What the current system does is let warriors press all their defensive and offensive buttons at once, GCD permitting, and suffer no penalty to either.

It's absurd.

[Rhyseh]

Correct.

Going sword and board was a choice to sacrifice damage for defence; it's got nothing to do with macros. Let's say, for example, the game automatically equipped a sword and shield for you if you pressed Shield Wall (and didn't if you didn't have said items in your bag). That would be a quality of life change.

What the current system does is let warriors press all their defensive and offensive buttons at once, GCD permitting, and suffer no penalty to either.

It's absurd.

So just like most other melee classes?

[Flaks]

Warrior is probably the best dps gain by weapon (maybe feral is better). So I don't really believe it will even out. Also, please enlight me what is the right way to play against a warrior? Certainly not with a caster since they have 2 interrupts, two charges, stun and reflect, not to mention root and fear removal. As a melee, stun + reckstorm is pretty retarded.

As for synergy, it is the most stupid argument ever, god comp, RMP and LSD 2.0 have the great synergy and they aren't very popular right now (compered to KFC and TSG) because they lack the ridiculous amount of damage, pressure and survival a warrior brings.

I outlined play by play how one caster can completely annihilate a warrior 1v1 and flawless the warrior if they pick even better talent choices. That caster also happens to be the one that's supposed to be hard countered by warriors...but isn't.

People are pulling numbers from various different places be it a single battlegroup or just the EU or US ladder. When all numbers are put together, warriors are still at the top but by a much smaller margin. Once the stats that benefit other specs/classes far more than warriors make their way on to certain characters. Ret even now has far greater burst than warriors; while this difference will become negligable with weapon upgrades, it'll become pronounced once again when people start getting Grievous gear.

UH dks are already nipping on warrior's toes in most regards and while warriors certainly have superior mobility and defensives, uh dks shit on warriors sideways in terms of utility and anti-control. The differences in numbers are not simply due to viability. Warlocks, the LEAST PLAYED CLASS IN THE GAME, have been exceptionally well represented above 2.2k in every single season since the game's launch. Warriors, one of the MOST PLAYED CLASSES IN THE GAME, obviously is going to show a higher representation when the class is comparable to less played classes.

I will not however deny that warrior survivability is one thing that's heavily propping them up right now and is a major reason for their high representation. While active healing dps classes are also in an exceptional spot in staying alive right now, warrior passive healing gives them a leg up in a scenario where burst is heavily reduced in previous season gear with current season resilience. That will ALSO change quickly with Grievous gear and people will be melting through defensive stance + second wind + shield wall + dbts like butter if they aren't already. I say this as someone who consistently was killed with all defensives up in under 6 seconds by multiple classes on the PTR.

- - - Updated - - -

So just like most other melee classes?

Like literally every other class that doesn't have a damage immunity. The ONLY class without an immunity that suffers by going defensive is dks by going into blood presence. But guess what? Just like uh dks lose some resource generation/damage by going into blood presence, warrior rage generation is completely gutted by going into defensive stance; we literally get 10 rage every 5 seconds WHILE ON A TARGET if we're forced to sit in defensive stance. Which means no slams, which means no burst which means the warrior is utterly useless. Like I said, it's the decrease in burst with previous season gear and current season resilience that's allowing warriors to stay longer than they're supposed to in battle stance; expect that to change FAST with people getting their Grievous weapons.

- - - Updated - - -

Prepare for a wall of QQ and bad arguments "proving" warriors are bad.

The stats are clear but clueless people will never see beyond their own skill...

Yup, wall of QQ.

I don't think I've posted a single thing in this entire thread that could possibly be considered a whine. Honestly everything I've said has been well thought out and pretty clearly stated. If you choose to ignore then so be it. If you want properly break one of my many points down and debate it then I'm very VERY open to the idea; hell, I could very well be convinced I'm wrong IF people actually make a point instead of point to random crap, list every ability the class has, ignore what every other class brings, completely discount any given scenario where things happen like they do in game.

[Coraulten]

Wanna see the numbers? (players over 2.2k on 3s):

Warrior Arms 15.4 % (112)
Priest Holy 13.2 % (96)
Mage Frost 10.3 % (75)
Shaman Restoration 9.9 % (72)
Warlock Affliction 6.0 % (44)
Death Knight Unholy 5.1 % (37)
Druid Restoration 4.3 % (31)
Druid Feral 4.0 % (29)
Rogue Subtlety 3.8 % (28)
Paladin Holy 3.8 % (28)
Priest Shadow 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Marksmanship 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Survival 3.2 % (23)
Shaman Elemental 3.0 % (22)
Shaman Enhancement 2.5 % (18)

On total class representation the WL is 7% and the warrior is 15%.

It has 50% more representation than the second best DPS. I wonder how many % of top players need to be a warrior so that Flasks admits that his class is OP...

Correlation does not imply causation.

[Zarahi]

Wanna see the numbers? (players over 2.2k on 3s):

Warrior Arms 15.4 % (112)
Priest Holy 13.2 % (96)
Mage Frost 10.3 % (75)
Shaman Restoration 9.9 % (72)
Warlock Affliction 6.0 % (44)
Death Knight Unholy 5.1 % (37)
Druid Restoration 4.3 % (31)
Druid Feral 4.0 % (29)
Rogue Subtlety 3.8 % (28)
Paladin Holy 3.8 % (28)
Priest Shadow 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Marksmanship 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Survival 3.2 % (23)
Shaman Elemental 3.0 % (22)
Shaman Enhancement 2.5 % (18)

On total class representation the WL is 7% and the warrior is 15%.

It has 50% more representation than the second best DPS. I wonder how many % of top players need to be a warrior so that Flasks admits that his class is OP...

Have you ever stopped and wondered maybe these warrior just might be running with good teams and players? When t comes down to it doesn't matter on the player skill and said team mates?

[Deleted]

in 2's

Your argument is invalid.

- - - Updated - - -

a ton of people are trying their warriors out right now.

Oh they are? and all these people "trying out" their warriors are over 2.2k? come on seriously.

[tiporispit]

This just in, some pvper who gets his ass kicked demands nerfs rather than finding a way to beat a class film at 11.

Rock. Paper. Scissors. Given equal player ability, scissors will beat paper every time in Warcraft. Games with class-based systems are inherently imbalanced. The skill-point systems in some past games led to vastly superior PvP. Completely based on player skill. Every single season in Arena has developed into a couple comps shitting all over the rest of them.

If you say there isn't hard counters to every comp (with certain comps having more than others), you don't know jack squat about Arena. Chance of beating a hard counter to your own team: Zero percent. News at 11.

[Pua]

So just like most other melee classes?

You're missing the point.

A warrior can charge in, hit his Shield Wall button and then activate his Bloodbath-Bladestorm-Recklessness-Skull Banner-trinket macro and take 65% less damage, assuming Defensive Stance, while doing 100% of his damage.

Nobody is going to argue that it's good play, but it's ludicrously effective for being such a mindless thing to do and leaves certain classes utterly defenceless.

So, no, not "like other melee classes". Retribution certainly can't use Divine Shield without taking a hit to their damage output, and I think only death knights are comparable given the way Icebound Fortitude works... But they don't have the additional defensive cooldown that warriors do in the form of Die by the Sword (AMS is really very different). In fact, DbtS is what you should really be comparing the defences of other melee with because it's the only one that really fits.

Also, I was describing why the changes aren't merely quality of life changes. There is a very real and functional difference between needing a shield to use an ability and not needing a shield. That functional difference is your damage output. People need to stop arguing to the contrary, because it's incorrect to do so.

[Flaks]

A retribution paladin, unlike an arms warrior BECOMES IMMUNE TO ALL DAMAGE, CC or ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF MASS DISPEL/SHATTER during divine shield. If a ret stacks his cds during a bubble, even with the 50% decrease on burst can STILL compete with a lot of other classes' burst while being immune to all damage.

Now let's compare to other things: a warlock can blow ALL of his cds and not only become immune to damage but also pretty much heal to full health while at the same time being able to pop his demon soul and burn through enemy health faster than anyone could think possible with dots. Let's see what else: rogues can pop combat readiness/evasion/clos/talented feint and then continue to have vendetta up on their target or shadow dance with shadow blades with literally no drawback.

I can continue listing how every EVERY single class besides mage and paladin are capable of doing this and I've already clarified WHY ret specifically is an exception to the rule. Mages not so much though one can argue that that might be responsible for their non-exceptional status at the moment.

[meathead]

Wanna see the numbers? (players over 2.2k on 3s):

Warrior Arms 15.4 % (112)
Priest Holy 13.2 % (96)
Mage Frost 10.3 % (75)
Shaman Restoration 9.9 % (72)
Warlock Affliction 6.0 % (44)
Death Knight Unholy 5.1 % (37)
Druid Restoration 4.3 % (31)
Druid Feral 4.0 % (29)
Rogue Subtlety 3.8 % (28)
Paladin Holy 3.8 % (28)
Priest Shadow 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Marksmanship 3.7 % (27)
Hunter Survival 3.2 % (23)
Shaman Elemental 3.0 % (22)
Shaman Enhancement 2.5 % (18)

On total class representation the WL is 7% and the warrior is 15%.

It has 50% more representation than the second best DPS. I wonder how many % of top players need to be a warrior so that Flasks admits that his class is OP...

lets try something crazy shall we?since you like #'s so much why not add last seasons #'s with this season #'s and see what kinda class rep we get.a guy in this thread "and another" was calling for warrior nerfs and saying mages are weak and he never sees then in pvp any more,but these #'s say other wise right?

do you know what stands out to me on your little chart?the fact warriors are in the #1 spot atm,usually we are dead last.then i look at the other specs on your chart and its the same old shit just different day.shamans were #1 healers threw out all of cata and are still in the top 4 now=lmfao.mages have been face roll since for ever and are still #3=lmfao.locks the least played clas sin game are #5=lmfao.

warriors are one of the most played classes in game and warriors only have one "if that" viable pvp spec.this should mean that arms is at or near the top end pvp at all times,every season,year in and year out.but guess what?thats not the case.the fact is warriors are more often then not the worst pvp CLASS in game with the least amount of rep in high end arena.if they does not knock since into your head nothing will.

like i said before,since warriors only have one viable pvp spec "arms" and all other classes have atleast two if not 3.then arms should be without question the #1 or close to it pvp spec in game right?think about it, that's all warriors have while other classes can just switch roles and keep playing,warrior's cant.where is fury on your list?or prot?they are no where to be found right?but i see all 3 specs for shamans,2 for hunters,2 for priests ect.you see my point.

would you consider warriors "balanced" if warriors were #2 in this chart instead of being #1?

[Deleted]

lets try something crazy shall we?since you like #'s so much why not add last seasons #'s with this season #'s and see what kinda class rep we get.a guy in this thread "and another" was calling for warrior nerfs and saying mages are weak and he never sees then in pvp any more,but these #'s say other wise right?

do you know what stands out to me on your little chart?the fact warriors are in the #1 spot atm,usually we are dead last.then i look at the other specs on your chart and its the same old shit just different day.shamans were #1 healers threw out all of cata and are still in the top 4 now=lmfao.mages have been face roll since for ever and are still #3=lmfao.locks the least played clas sin game are #5=lmfao.

warriors are one of the most played classes in game and warriors only have one "if that" viable pvp spec.this should mean that arms is at or near the top end pvp at all times,every season,year in and year out.but guess what?thats not the case.the fact is warriors are more often then not the worst pvp CLASS in game with the least amount of rep in high end arena.if they does not knock since into your head nothing will.

like i said before,since warriors only have one viable pvp spec "arms" and all other classes have atleast two if not 3.then arms should be without question the #1 or close to it pvp spec in game right?think about it, that's all warriors have while other classes can just switch roles and keep playing,warrior's cant.where is fury on your list?or prot?they are no where to be found right?but i see all 3 specs for shamans,2 for hunters,2 for priests ect.you see my point.

would you consider warriors "balanced" if warriors were #2 in this chart instead of being #1?

This makes no sense whatsoever. Are you trying to say that warriors are not viable and the only reason they are #1 is because
they just have 1 viable spec "if that" as you put it. Again, hinting that arms isnt viable?

Warriors are #1 ABOVE 2200+ rating. Get that into your head. Think about it. Breathe. Now think about it again and go delete your post.

[Pua]

A retribution paladin, unlike an arms warrior BECOMES IMMUNE TO ALL DAMAGE, CC or ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF MASS DISPEL/SHATTER during divine shield. If a ret stacks his cds during a bubble, even with the 50% decrease on burst can STILL compete with a lot of other classes' burst while being immune to all damage.

I know.

You don't have to shout.

Please don't ruin your otherwise largely sensible commentary in this thread by blowing a gasket now.

The reason I drew comparisons to Retribution and DK's is because they're plate melee, while warlocks and rogues aren't. In case it hasn't been clear in my earlier commentary, I have a problem with ANY class that can be 100% defensive while also being 100% offensive at the same time. How they do it doesn't interest me; what interests me is that they should not be able to, in my opinion, because it removes depth from the overall meta game of PvP.

Not only that, but you're starting to argue for power creep ("every class can do this, so should mine") and that's simply a position I will never, ever support. Fuck homogenization. Classes should have definitive strengths and weaknesses so that playing a different class feels like playing a different class. These differences shouldn't be insurmountable if a player is skilled enough, but I hate the warrior PvP persona now because it's little more than a mindless damage bot and I hate the excuse that "PvP isn't balanced around 1v1".

It wasn't like this in WotLK.

It's like this now.

Which you prefer is up to you.

And lastly, as with the poster before, I'm trying to remind you that the loss of the shield requirement isn't just a quality of life change. It's significantly more than that, a point that has as yet gone uncontested.

I beg you to not drag this debate into the arena where your axe is being ground.

[ParanoiD84]

First it was nerf warriors then it was buff warriors now it's back to nerf warriors.

[Cirayne24]

First it was nerf warriors then it was buff warriors now it's back to nerf warriors.

That's every class, every patch. It's an endless cycle.