With Flex now available, should Blizzard keep LFR in the next EXP?

[Otimus]

As the title states, should they keep LFR in the next expansion?

Is there any reason to keep it around, especially if they create better tools to find pug groups for Flex mode???

LFR is still the more popular mode, by far, though. by faaaaaaaaaaaaaar. Entirely different audiences, really, too. The people whom really need LFR are probably never going to touch Flex or anything higher, and that tends to be the majority of people touching this content at all, so, naturally, those people should be catered to. I don't see a logical reason why they shouldn't.

However, they probably should find a way to bring the group-size mechanic of flex, somehow or another, into LFR, too. Or something to that effect. Maybe. I don't know! but LFR isn't going anywhere. It's just too popular, and serves too great of a purpose.

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NO. I dont need 4 modes of raiding. How about you just be a person and ask to play in a social game. MMO. Learn to be good and work with people. Use ventrilo/ mumble to build friendships with people. Build a server reputation for yourself. I like the idea of flex. Now just scratch lfr from the game please!

LFR waters down and diminished the quality of raiding.

Very few people actually doing it watered down and diminished the quality of raiding :x

Clearly, LFR was made for a reason, yo.

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It does cause many players that would raid a 10 or 25 man not because they can just do flex. More often then not you aren't losing much there though. I can say my guild had 4 raids running LFR came around and that number dropped to 2 right away then eventually 1 with the 2nd running more as a pug or every so often.

I imagine the amount of people who drop out of normal or above raiding is minuscule compared to the assumed gigantic amount of people whom had never raided before, whom now benefit from LFR.

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Do people still not realize that the appeal of LFR for most is not the easier difficulty, but the ability to do it by yourself whenever you want? As long as flex requires groups like standard raiding, it will never be a replacement for LFR and should not be thought of as such.

A large portion of people can't even grasp that concept, and think everyone who plays WoW wants to be doing things with large groups of friends/a guild, despite historical evidence to the contrary, and being unable to see past their own experiences, and see the actual reality of the situation. (i.e. these things were all done for a reason.)

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They have to keep it because they gave the bads a way to feel like they're not bad.

Imagine the subs that would leave if they got rid of LFR and expected the bads to actually l2p.

It's not about wanting to learn to play, I truly believe, as it is about not wanting to do organized activities with a large group of people who will inherently judge your every ability and action. The very concept, to a lot of people, is stressful, and not something they want out of a videogame.

Now, there is an argument to be made that these people should never of been playing WoW in the first place, for true. But that's the majority of the people playing WoW now, so Blizzard has to deal with the hand their dealt.

[Gheld]

Please explain to me how LFR directly affects your quality of raiding...doesn't affect mine. We go from Normal/Heroic in one tier to the next. LFR doesn't figure into it. Now, we might run it from time to time on our own time if we need an item that just never drops in our raid, but I have yet to see LFR have any real effect on my raiding experience in my raid team.

Why? Because it has 0 effect.

As a former guild officer and raid leader I can tell you exactly where the 'casual hate' comes from though.

It wasn't until around Ulduar that mechanics started getting very reflex based. So a lot of people who thought they were good at the game realized that they weren't as skillful as they thought. And a lot of players who were bench warmers got the opportunity to show everybody what they were made of, because gear checking and theory crafting was replaced with live skill challenges.

[The Glitch]

God I actually thought we were past all these LFR hate threads, the forums were calming down a bit, it was so nice to log in and not see a bazillion of them all over general.

OT: Yes it should stay, Flex is aimed at a totally different audience, there is still a place for LFR.

[lopk]

No. We do not need 28 different raid modes.

Phew thank goodness there are only 4.

Pretty much what needs to be said has been said. Flex isn't a replacement for LFR. With that being said, I could definitely see / support big changes for LFR, but downright removing it is a silly idea.

[Glorious Leader]

As a former guild officer and raid leader I can tell you exactly where the 'casual hate' comes from though.

It wasn't until around Ulduar that mechanics started getting very reflex based. So a lot of people who thought they were good at the game realized that they weren't as skillful as they thought. And a lot of players who were bench warmers got the opportunity to show everybody what they were made of, because gear checking and theory crafting was replaced with live skill challenges.

While this is true it is not inherently the result of LFR or multiple difficulty modes. It is rather in fact caused by the developers need to constantly push the envelope for a select group of players who want to constantly and consistently be challenged. Gear checking and theory crafting can be done by almost anybody and are equally challenging to all players. The "reflex based" style of game play is uneven in challenge and has indeed left players in the dust as it's grown increasingly more reflex based and increasingly more complex. Raiding in wow now is like frogger.

[Lord Blackmore]

As the title states, should they keep LFR in the next expansion?

Is there any reason to keep it around, especially if they create better tools to find pug groups for Flex mode???

Oh my aching head..

The idea that LFR should be removed because they put in Flex doesn't pass the sniff test for logic. LFR and Flex address different sets of issues and both have their place. There is absolutely no logical reason for Blizzard to remove LFR in the next expansion. Even if there were "better tools to find pug groups". |

This thread and the "question" posed by OP is a good example of why the MMO-C forums suck sometimes. Anyone who actually understands the issues LFR and Flex address wouldn't be asking this "question", except to rabble rouse.

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So a lot of people who thought they were good at the game realized that they weren't as skillful as they thought. .

No. The game changed and not everybody was able to adapt to a different skill set.

None of which explains where the 'casual hate' comes from.

[Gheld]

While this is true it is not inherently the result of LFR or multiple difficulty modes. It is rather in fact caused by the developers need to constantly push the envelope for a select group of players who want to constantly and consistently be challenged. Gear checking and theory crafting can be done by almost anybody and are equally challenging to all players. The "reflex based" style of game play is uneven in challenge and has indeed left players in the dust as it's grown increasingly more reflex based and increasingly more complex. Raiding in wow now is like frogger.

Any time they rehash an old mechanic though they get a ton of flak for it. But some mechanics have just started feeling less interesting and more arbitrary.

So finding the balance between those two extremes will probably be their biggest challenge with encounter design going forward.

[Deleted]

I'd say yes because bad players will always be bad players and they need their carebear mode to get gear see content.

why do you people always assume its bad players that use LFR?
get off your special snowflake & stop talking bollocks.
this is coming from a player who uses LFR, flex & raid & is in a guild who downed the final 11 bosses in tot (pre patch) in 7 weeks.

[MoanaLisa]

And a lot of players who were bench warmers got the opportunity to show everybody what they were made of, because gear checking and theory crafting was replaced with live skill challenges.

I don't doubt your experience but do have some doubt about your conclusions. Considering the amount of gear-checking I see nearly everywhere--including some examples of guild applications as well as guild ads in various places--that's pretty fanciful. Theorycrafting is still important too although Blizzard has tried hard to defeat the 'best solution' by swapping priority systems for rotations, numerous procs based on RNG, and completely rewriting the talent system. So theorycrafting is probably less important but make no mistake that those who read class forums and create class guides still take it into account. If one pays no attention to that sort of thing at all, then it's irrelevant to your point. Nonetheless, informed opinion based on math and sims has a way of getting through.

In any case, neither of these really has anything to do with whether or not LFR should stay simply because they aren't nearly as important to the success of an LFR group. Meet the minimum requirements and achievements, queue up and play and you're likely as not good to go. It's already generally accepted that LFR will be in the next expansion regardless of fansite polls and non-logical complaining.

[Flaks]

No, multiple raid modes/difficulties has completely watered down the feeling of success obtaining certain loot or downing a boss should have. 2 is more than enough.

That said, I think Flex should completely replace normal modes.

[Lord Blackmore]

OT: Yes it should stay, Flex is aimed at a totally different audience, there is still a place for LFR.

Anyone with working brain cells knows that LFR and Flex address different issues.

[ocis]

Watch this.

To be honest all I'm hearing when I'm listening to the guy make his case is "I was special back then and now I feel that since I'm not good enough to get world first I'm no longer special because other people get to kill these bosses on easier modes and I hate that". I mean, I can cut into the argument piece by piece but that just seems like a waste of time because the arguments have been made before and they just seem to fall on deaf ears. It kind of reminds me of parents blaming video games for their kids being violent - if players are being bad, it's up to the community to teach them to be better, not Blizzard. The video also happens to ignore all the problems caused by content being tiered by gear checks, and the poaching and guild hopping that ensued.

The only reasonable argument that the video makes is that some people are just satisfied beating the content regardless of difficulty so they have no motivation to move onto the next difficulty. My reply to that though is: would you really want those people in your raid if your goal was heroic mode in the first place?

I do admit that Blizzard has broken down their content releases into a more DLC style release schedule which has given players time to completely consume the previous content before the next content is out, but the start of Mists was a lot like BC in that you got three raids right off the bat, and most guilds didn't get very far into or even make it to Terrace before ToT came out.

[Lord Blackmore]

That said, I think Flex should completely replace normal modes.

I think that's quite workable and would be received favorably.

[Mormolyce]

For the 500th time, if they replace something with Flex it'll be NM, not LFR.

But they'll probably just leave all 4 since it's fine the way it is. If you don't like LFR and don't have a NM/HM raid group, do Flex.

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I think that's quite workable and would be received favorably.

I think that was the original intention of Flex, but it would be highly disruptive to NM guilds. People would feel obliged to min/max their rosters to take the "best" number of players to each fight, which would suck.

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No, multiple raid modes/difficulties has completely watered down the feeling of success obtaining certain loot or downing a boss should have. 2 is more than enough.

The way I see it, if you don't feel the accomplishment when you down a heroic boss because you've already downed it on LFR/Flex/NM... well I don't know what to tell you. If that's how you feel then lucky you, LFR is perfect for you.

[Flaks]

The way I see it, if you don't feel the accomplishment when you down a heroic boss because you've already downed it on LFR/Flex/NM... well I don't know what to tell you. If that's how you feel then lucky you, LFR is perfect for you.

I'm not nor have I ever been a Heroic raider. And for the most part, heroic raiders are far more concerned with simply progressing and doing so by any means necessary than watered down content/gear. So my post was more aimed at the vast majority of raiders: people who do LFR or Flex or Normal Mode and are very likely to compare the 3 in their minds and begin to regret playing the same game 3 times.

[Glorious Leader]

Any time they rehash an old mechanic though they get a ton of flak for it. But some mechanics have just started feeling less interesting and more arbitrary.

So finding the balance between those two extremes will probably be their biggest challenge with encounter design going forward.

If the "ton of flak" comes from the same group of folks who pushed them to make raiding the current arcade game that is it then those people can and should be ignored. Lot's of mechanics in this game no longer feel interesting, they mostly just feel like move here do this. lots of the boss fights are just attempts by the developers to ZERG players by throwing them so many things at once. Durumu for example did not and does not need a life drain beam that fight has enough going on without the addition of that. It strikes me that the life drain beam ought to be for heroics and not normals. It's a fairly stale mechanic anyway just a swap between players after a couple of stacks. The spectrum phase was a little bit more novel.

[Sills]

NO. I dont need 4 modes of raiding.

Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that there aren't people who do. There are many people out there who do use and enjoy LFR. I raid Flex and normals on my main, but I like that I can just hop in a queue and get some LFR gear for my alts. Does this make me a bad player? No. It means I use LFR and get some enjoyment out of it.

Just because LFR is in the game doesn't mean you need to use it. If you don't need to use it (if you raid normals/flex exclusively and/or don't care much about alts etc.) then it does not alter your game play one little bit. There are a small number of people in my guild who raid LFR exclusively. I have NO interest in having LFR removed because I like that there is some more end game content for them to enjoy. It doesn't affect me that they use LFR only and don't raid normals. What is the big deal? I just don't get the LFR hate.

[The Glitch]

Anyone with working brain cells knows that LFR and Flex address different issues.

You would never know that from the threads on these boards most days. ;/

[sam86]

As others mentioned, I'd say remove normal and replace it with Flex is more sensible
I voted yes and that is from a guy who use only LFR, because as veteran wow player who started in vanilla (didn't play cata almost), servers now are completely horribly DEAD because u can do everything solo by queue without even need to say hi or spit on anyone else
Yes I'm relaxing singing for LFR queue and not bothering, but I want social to be put back in wow, we don't know half of people who play in same server now, I bet most people can't name top guilds on their servers (except the few with Method guild or whatever), and that something that annoys me
We don't know anymore who is good tank, or healer, or even dps to queue with in dungeon|
We don't know when someone like Smokee (random name i recall since bc days) for example says he will organize a raid tomorrow and people rush to sign with him to go
Social part of wow is DEAD, and only way to revive it is sadly force people to revive it, u can't compete with "free" no matter how crappy free is and good non-free is
And before any smart answer and say no one stop u from be lazy, i can't move entire server social back so i'm not fighting the current i'm swimming with it better
Only way is to change the current flow itself and that is something that only blizz has the power to do (or a very good hacker)

[Quilm]

As others mentioned, I'd say remove normal and replace it with Flex is more sensible
I voted yes and that is from a guy who use only LFR, because as veteran wow player who started in vanilla (didn't play cata almost), servers now are completely horribly DEAD because u can do everything solo by queue without even need to say hi or spit on anyone else
Yes I'm relaxing singing for LFR queue and not bothering, but I want social to be put back in wow, we don't know half of people who play in same server now, I bet most people can't name top guilds on their servers (except the few with Method guild or whatever), and that something that annoys me
We don't know anymore who is good tank, or healer, or even dps to queue with in dungeon|
We don't know when someone like Smokee (random name i recall since bc days) for example says he will organize a raid tomorrow and people rush to sign with him to go
Social part of wow is DEAD, and only way to revive it is sadly force people to revive it, u can't compete with "free" no matter how crappy free is and good non-free is
And before any smart answer and say no one stop u from be lazy, i can't move entire server social back so i'm not fighting the current i'm swimming with it better
Only way is to change the current flow itself and that is something that only blizz has the power to do (or a very good hacker)

Can't take away normals, anyone who does heroics would know the jump from flex would still crush guilds. And flex has brought back some of that social aspect that has been missing, I see flex raids everyday in chat and my guild joins together with 2 others on our server to run flex for alts and mains that might need an upgrade. No flex and this wouldn't be happening but this is just an example from my server