Why the heroic raid is not necessary at all

[Darkfriend]

Wouldn't play WoW if it weren't for heroic raiding. Never would have started either. Normals are jokes.

[billielecter]

I think Blizzard is trying to make prestige and vanity into business. So keep on feeding the elites they will set up their own kingdom while eventually they will find themselves the only ones playing this game. Perfect

I think heroic modes should exist but only as a means to get better transmog gear, titles and mounts. That's how high end PVP is and it's still a real thing. People still do that stuff because of the challenge and the fun of it. They like to go around looking down at the filthy Challengers and Rivals and Duelists and mock them. PVE though keeps getting easier and easier every week because you get gear out of heroic mode when it should only drop the same ilvl as Normal (indeed, all versions should drop the same gear just with a weekly lockout). That way people can just go along with whatever challenge they want. Really sick of seeing 'hardcore raiders' saying they're better than people when they run around in perfectly itemised BiS heroic gear fully upgraded and say "lol ur dps so bad" to people playing perfectly in LFR gear. That is an injustice. You should have to grind the gear, yes, but do it like PVP does it. If you have full Conquest gear but 1200 rating, you're bad. Time was you couldn't even get to higher ratings because people in upgraded elite conquest gear would just stomp you even if they were not good players (or, if they were, still have a huge advantage). PVP kept the gear equal enough so PVE should do the same.

So if heroic raiders really care about challenge and prestige, they'd be okay with it. They just need to see that 1% of the game's population doesn't matter to anyone else. Nobody else cares what heroic raiders do. They aren't better players, they just spend more time and have more gear. That's all it takes to win. You could argue "hurr durr LFR bads doing 20k dps" but that person is just bad for doing 20k DPS. What if someone does 200k DPS in LFR gear and 400k in better gear from just playing well? Why is that good person's performance lessened by a gear level? If people just want to grind gear, they'll just grind gear. If they want to play harder, why should they then have to grind more gear and have that as a barrier to entry? Why isn't simply playing better enough?

TL;DR heroic mode serves no purpose, if it's for prestige let it be that and no gear

[EzG]

I can understand posting your feelings into a thread, to kind of vent out how you feel about blizzard and the overall game, and specifically targeting heroics.
But what is the motive of this thread? All that you are doing is complaining your heart out and will only get people to complain back at you.
If you haven't read a few dozen pages already in the world first thread for SoO, I suggest you head there and vent your hatred instead of creating a new thread for people to go off-topic, or in most cases start bashing each other until a mod decides to either close the thread or start infracting people.

I see no point in this thread. There is my two cents.

Also I don't agree with you. There's my opinion. Have a good one.

[Vaelorian]

Personally I don't want heroic modes. I want Ulduar like instances. Everyone does the same instance and the same bosses, except when the "normal" or "unhard" modes are done, guilds who want a better challenge and some extra gear which goes a bit better with the gear that is already available in terms of stats. And it would be nice if there aren't that many catchup mechanics. Sure gear that helps overcome the for that guild perhaps too difficult encounter, but they shouldn't be able to just jump into the next tier of content with it. This won't happen tho.

[MoanaLisa]

Knock it off with the personal back and forth. It's off-topic and derailing.

- - - Updated - - -

Heroic raiding has a place and is fine as it is. It's a big game with room for everyone.

[Druidjezus]

Nobody else cares what heroic raiders do. They aren't better players, they just spend more time and have more gear. That's all it takes to win.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I agreed with a lot of what you said, but this is just flat out wrong. Not an opinion, fact, it's wrong. I've been leading raids and heroic raids for years now, and some players are just better than others. Period. Human beings are NOT equal in terms of reaction time, adaptability, dexterity and intelligence, and all of these things will contribute to a person's skill at WoW.

I do agree with what I assume is the heart of what you're saying, that being a heroic raider doesn't MAKE someone a better player, and that's true. But the fact is, the overwhelming majority of heroic raiders are so far above the average skill of the WoW player base it is nearly sickening. I lead a guild of about 400 active members, we have 1 heroic 10 man raid group.

I have many, many times seen my heroic raiders outplay members of my own guild and other guilds on their less geared alts. Our warrior will hop on his 504 mage, go into a a Flex and do more dps than many people with 520-530 item levels. Why? Is it because he's a heroic raider? No, it's because he's a better player. And TYPICALLY, those are the kinds of players you will find actually getting brought to heroic raids. Why? Because shitty players cannot DO heroic raids. It is simply beyond them, I have seen it. You cannot take a person who takes 3 seconds to react to anything that happens on their screen to a heroic raid fight and expect them to survive. Hell, many normals would be beyond that person.

I'm not saying heroic raid players don't make mistakes, nor that people don't get carried, but what I am saying is if you went out and tried to form a group of 10 50th percentile WoW players, even dedicated WoW players, to do heroic raiding, you would not succeed. You may get 2-3 heroic bosses down by the end of a tier, if that even. How do I know this? I've seen it. People like you think all it takes is 10 people willing to show up at the same time every day and you can do raid content, the fact is 4 times out of 5 those groups will fail without ever even progressing through normal. They'll wipe to simple mechanics, get frustrated and give up. I've seen it dozens of times.

But go ahead and keep saying all it takes is time and gear, and then go and find me the gear that lets you survive a 2 million shadow damage attack that you have 1.5 seconds to avoid.

[Blaschnack]

Heroic modes are the main reason I am still playing this game after so many years.

I personally don't see heroic modes as the extra mode but rather as the raiding format with the difficulty level the designers had in mind when creating them. For me normal mode is the extra mode that offers guilds that are a bit behind a means to progress (and eventually stepping up to heroic modes) and also act as an additional means to graduately decreasing the difficulty of remaining encounters (back then with one difficulty level you geared up solely via bosses you already killed, now you get your important upgrades via defeated heroic bosses and also got a possibility to make some minor upgrades when clearing the instance on normal after giving up your heroic tries for the week).

And the no-lifer argument is quite outdated, isn't it? ^^ there are tons of 3 day guilds around that clear all content in a reasonable time. I also almost exclusively log on 3 days per week and only for raids. Maybe sometimes on weekends to buy mats for flasks, potions and bufffood (if I don't do that right before the raid).

[Deleted]

We don't have LFR, Normal, Heroic, Flex because they are necessary. We have them because they are ways for Blizzard to get people to do essentially the same content over and over again. It is basically the Diablo model, instead of developing a full game they develop 1/3 of a game and make you do it 3 times. In short it is a way for them to keep people busy without spending money on developing content.

Don't we have it because raiding was too hard / niche in older expansions and, after opening it up a little with WOTLK Naxx, people liked it and have clamoured for easier access ever since?

If they cranked raiding back up to how exclusive it was before, I'm sure the fanbase would throw a hissyfit - they're enjoying that content, regardless of if someone else is enjoying a fight that looks the same but plays completely differently elsewhere.

I think Blizzard is trying to make prestige and vanity into business. So keep on feeding the elites they will set up their own kingdom while eventually they will find themselves the only ones playing this game. Perfect

I think they're trying to make a fun game mode that a variety of people of various skill levels and time availability can enjoy.

Again, raiding has its roots in "exclusivity" and "prestiege", if anything they're trying to make a business out of adding LFR / Flex and "normal" mode, opening it up to more players and arguably devaluing the prestiege rewarded by raiding, there certainly used to be a lot of people complaining about "oh everyone has tier these days" etc when LFR first launched.

And the no-lifer argument is quite outdated, isn't it? ^^ there are tons of 3 day guilds around that clear all content in a reasonable time. I also almost exclusively log on 3 days per week and only for raids. Maybe sometimes on weekends to buy mats for flasks, potions and bufffood (if I don't do that right before the raid).

This bears repeating too, my guild is made up of almost entirely old men in their 30-40s with families, work and an active social life, they all manage to put asside 3-4 hours 3 days a week and, despite being far from the best players, usually manage to clear the tier or at least make some respectable progress. We're far from the fastest group, but we have fun and this myth about needing "no life" is completely foundless, we probably spend less time raiding than most people spend doing whatever they do / LFR / whatever or simply watching TV.

[F1reheart]

I'd rather them take out the "normal" difficulty and replace it with heroic difficulty as it was pre-ulduar. :\

[billielecter]

It seems you are the one with authority here. So why don't you tell me whether you truly agree with H-mode or simply because Blizzard has created it so you better get used to it?

Knock it off with the personal back and forth. It's off-topic and derailing.

- - - Updated - - -

Heroic raiding has a place and is fine as it is. It's a big game with room for everyone.

[OscaR]

yeah nothing is necessary. WoW isn't necessary but it's here.

[Druidjezus]

And the no-lifer argument is quite outdated, isn't it? ^^ there are tons of 3 day guilds around that clear all content in a reasonable time. I also almost exclusively log on 3 days per week and only for raids. Maybe sometimes on weekends to buy mats for flasks, potions and bufffood (if I don't do that right before the raid).

The "no-lifer" argument is the stance casual players who can't hack it in raids take to justify why someone can do heroic raids and they can't. Back at the end of Cata me and 2 of my buddies got into an LFD with a rogue who saw my rogue buddy with his full heroic gear and legendary daggers and started talking about how he'd love to get into heroic raiding but he has a job. When we told him we only raided 9 hours a week he thought we were trolling him.

I think it may be because people hear about the world first guilds raiding almost non-stop to get their heroic kills that they never check out the schedules for the more typical heroic guilds to see what it's really like. I can tell you that one of the top 100 west 25 guilds is on my server, Refined (US-Area 52) and they raid 3 nights a week for 3 1/2 hours, many of them log onto raid and are ghosts the rest of the week. If that's a "no-lifer" then we've got a lot of "casual" players in WoW who have no life.

[Vaelorian]

You're entitled to your opinion, and I agreed with a lot of what you said, but this is just flat out wrong. Not an opinion, fact, it's wrong. I've been leading raids and heroic raids for years now, and some players are just better than others. Period. Human beings are NOT equal in terms of reaction time, adaptability, dexterity and intelligence, and all of these things will contribute to a person's skill at WoW.

I do agree with what I assume is the heart of what you're saying, that being a heroic raider doesn't MAKE someone a better player, and that's true. But the fact is, the overwhelming majority of heroic raiders are so far above the average skill of the WoW player base it is nearly sickening. I lead a guild of about 400 active members, we have 1 heroic 10 man raid group.

I have many, many times seen my heroic raiders outplay members of my own guild and other guilds on their less geared alts. Our warrior will hop on his 504 mage, go into a a Flex and do more dps than many people with 520-530 item levels. Why? Is it because he's a heroic raider? No, it's because he's a better player. And TYPICALLY, those are the kinds of players you will find actually getting brought to heroic raids. Why? Because shitty players cannot DO heroic raids. It is simply beyond them, I have seen it. You cannot take a person who takes 3 seconds to react to anything that happens on their screen to a heroic raid fight and expect them to survive. Hell, many normals would be beyond that person.

I'm not saying heroic raid players don't make mistakes, nor that people don't get carried, but what I am saying is if you went out and tried to form a group of 10 50th percentile WoW players, even dedicated WoW players, to do heroic raiding, you would not succeed. You may get 2-3 heroic bosses down by the end of a tier, if that even. How do I know this? I've seen it. People like you think all it takes is 10 people willing to show up at the same time every day and you can do raid content, the fact is 4 times out of 5 those groups will fail without ever even progressing through normal. They'll wipe to simple mechanics, get frustrated and give up. I've seen it dozens of times.

But go ahead and keep saying all it takes is time and gear, and then go and find me the gear that lets you survive a 2 million shadow damage attack that you have 1.5 seconds to avoid.

Totally true. As a former guildmaster of 7 years (quit after Raggy heroic 25) I must concur with this post. The amount of trials I have seen come and go prove this.

Also there is a huge (to me) difference between players I thought were pretty capable in TBC or Vanilla, but were pretty damn shite during the first hardmodes (Ulduar) and heroic content. They suddenly fell flat on their faces that I had to cut them loose.

But yeah heroic raiders who can actually complete a heroic tier while it is current, are a "rare" breed. And yes while it takes dedication and time, it is also very much skill/awareness that makes the difference.

[RickJamesLich]

The "no-lifer" argument is the stance casual players who can't hack it in raids take to justify why someone can do heroic raids and they can't. Back at the end of Cata me and 2 of my buddies got into an LFD with a rogue who saw my rogue buddy with his full heroic gear and legendary daggers and started talking about how he'd love to get into heroic raiding but he has a job. When we told him we only raided 9 hours a week he thought we were trolling him.

I think it may be because people hear about the world first guilds raiding almost non-stop to get their heroic kills that they never check out the schedules for the more typical heroic guilds to see what it's really like. I can tell you that one of the top 100 west 25 guilds is on my server, Refined (US-Area 52) and they raid 3 nights a week for 3 1/2 hours, many of them log onto raid and are ghosts the rest of the week. If that's a "no-lifer" then we've got a lot of "casual" players in WoW who have no life.

haha, I had something similar happen today. I told the guy I probably raided less than he does if he adds up his time in flex and LFR, he didn't say anything else for the rest of the run.

[Vaelorian]

haha, I had something similar happen today. I told the guy I probably raided less than he does if he adds up his time in flex and LFR, he didn't say anything else for the rest of the run.

Hahaha yeah I've seen "casuals" in LFR like nonstop. I don't think that is casual at all. Thats some pretty hardcore shit. But at times these players are too shit to actually be a part of a guilds raiding team.

But there is also the other side: Like myself currently. I do at times do LFR just to improve myself. I could be in a heroic guild. Hell I was GM of one for many years. But I don't have a life that lets me raid on a schedule. Not anymore. And that is the other side ofcourse. But honestly who would grind LFR to death? I still die a little everytime I enter LFR. So I keep it to a minimum.

[RickJamesLich]

Hahaha yeah I've seen "casuals" in LFR like nonstop. I don't think that is casual at all. Thats some pretty hardcore shit. But at times these players are too shit to actually be a part of a guilds raiding team.

But there is also the other side: Like myself currently. I do at times do LFR just to improve myself. I could be in a heroic guild. Hell I was GM of one for many years. But I don't have a life that lets me raid on a schedule. Not anymore. And that is the other side ofcourse. But honestly who would grind LFR to death? I still die a little everytime I enter LFR. So I keep it to a minimum.

I was in the same position in Cata during Dragon Soul, I didn't have enough time to actually raid, so I thought I'd give LFR a spin. After trying it out, I decided I'd be better off just taking a break from the game until I could get into a regular raiding guild lol.


But yeah, honestly, if you queue up for all 4 wings of ToT, with 45 minute waits on the queues, that time spent alone is pretty much a raid night for some guilds, and that's just the queue.

[Deleted]

Lastly heroic raid isn't heroic at all. It's only a boss piled up with statics which requires you with higher pve gears and more devoting time. I don't see anything may represent heroic here.

Well what else could heroic be other than, you know, harder bosses? That's the whole point of heroic as far as I'm aware. Why do you have a problem that other people are willing to dedicate time and effort to defeat challenging bosses OP?

[Allatar]

I happen to believe that real happyness comes from striving to be skilled at something and succeeding. I don't think they should take that away from wow players. No matter how much more devoted they are.

Very well said, very well said.

If more people thought like this then wow would be a much better place to spend some time. There are far too may players who want to get maximum reward for little or zero effort. In my personal opinion LFR can be the poster child for this attitude when at its worst and the same lazy, whiny, entitled attitude can be found all over the Timeless Isle on my server.

[billielecter]

No I do not. Do I look like a one? I am sorry, to you and tea both. I'd rather leave no pride and prejudice impression to a cup of lovely tea.

*sips tea*

Normal mode isn't difficult enough for a great deal of raiders, hence why heroic mode exists. Hard mode exists for the same reason LFR and Flex mode exist, normal mode as a difficulty level does not meet the needs of the entire playerbase.

That's all I really have to say to you sir, as you obviously have a horrid bias against ladies and their tea.

[MoanaLisa]

It seems you are the one with authority here. So why don't you tell me whether you truly agree with H-mode or simply because Blizzard has created it so you better get used to it?

Only the authority to attempt to keep people from continuously insulting one another. My opinions about the game are my own and I don't speak for anyone other than myself. That said, what about this was so difficult to understand? Cripes, it was in your quote.

Heroic raiding has a place and is fine as it is. It's a big game with room for everyone.

How is that not clear?