Why the heroic raid is not necessary at all

[Deleted]

Instead of removing heroic, be thankfull you can actualy clear normal modes now.

If it was still 1 format only alot of players would miss out.

Are you mad because heroic is to hard?

[Saiyoran]

Man, you know, heroic raids are unnecessary, we should remove them.
And you know what, some people spend a lot of time doing normal difficulty, we should remove that as well.
Flex is kinda challenging too, people might be tempted to link their achievements, lets throw that out.
LFR requires a certain gear level to que for it, thats just way too exclusive, I think we should definitely remove it.
In fact, I think that dailies require a little too much attention to complete as well, and 5 mans can grant achievements that I might feel the need to link to my guildies. Remove plz Blizz.

As long as the game consists of AFKing in the capital city with no sense of character progression in any way, this game is perfect guys.

Annnnnnnnnd I got one more.

Blizzard is so lazy, like, come on, if I can kill LFR Lei Shen, then Heroic Lei Shen is the exact same piece of content! I've basically killed it already! Helm of Command isn't even relevant, and the way the pillars work? Pshhhhhhhhh, that is EXACTLY the same as in LFR!

/sarcasm off

Heroic raiding is the only challenging content in the game nowadays outside of CMs and PvP, and I hate PvP. If it is really so "easy to create" and the same as normal, then obviously they're not spending many resources on it, so removing it wouldn't make content come out any faster. Your argument is completely unfounded. 4 difficulties for any kind of player. One size does not fit all.

[billielecter]

Seems it's very difficult to find and join a guild which can complete a raid with 45mins. And do you see the preparation time they spend in a overall time?Or you mean they are born to be professional?

I was in the same position in Cata during Dragon Soul, I didn't have enough time to actually raid, so I thought I'd give LFR a spin. After trying it out, I decided I'd be better off just taking a break from the game until I could get into a regular raiding guild lol.


But yeah, honestly, if you queue up for all 4 wings of ToT, with 45 minute waits on the queues, that time spent alone is pretty much a raid night for some guilds, and that's just the queue.

[jbombard]

Don't we have it because raiding was too hard / niche in older expansions and, after opening it up a little with WOTLK Naxx, people liked it and have clamoured for easier access ever since?

If they cranked raiding back up to how exclusive it was before, I'm sure the fanbase would throw a hissyfit - they're enjoying that content, regardless of if someone else is enjoying a fight that looks the same but plays completely differently elsewhere.
...snip...

Not really no. They can do different difficulties like most games do, but they don't arrange it that way. They want players to progress from one to the other, hence the different gear requirements. There are lots of different ways they could provide rewards and exclusivity for a harder difficulty without providing better gear. I mean people actually play single player games on the hard difficulty with nothing except maybe some achievements as a reward, they do it because they enjoy the challenge. If people play heroics for the challenge and the fun, they don't need to drop better gear they could just tune it tighter for the same gear. Once again we have different modes not because they are necessary but because they are a way for Blizzard to get people to do the same content multiple times.

[Cybran]

You are joking right? This tier's heroic mode is insultingly EASY already. If anything, Blizzard needs to remove LFR, FLEX and Normal, but instead make 10 man difficult a bit easier dropping different items than 25 man. This way 25 will be arena for real raiding like in TBC.

[billielecter]

No I don't enjoy repeating the same boss at all. All the same face and mechanism. If hard-core players do enjoy challenging let them enjoy without H-tier as rewards so it won't inflict damage to the balance of this game which has been already serious.

Man, you know, heroic raids are unnecessary, we should remove them.
And you know what, some people spend a lot of time doing normal difficulty, we should remove that as well.
Flex is kinda challenging too, people might be tempted to link their achievements, lets throw that out.
LFR requires a certain gear level to que for it, thats just way too exclusive, I think we should definitely remove it.
In fact, I think that dailies require a little too much attention to complete as well, and 5 mans can grant achievements that I might feel the need to link to my guildies. Remove plz Blizz.

As long as the game consists of AFKing in the capital city with no sense of character progression in any way, this game is perfect guys.

Annnnnnnnnd I got one more.

Blizzard is so lazy, like, come on, if I can kill LFR Lei Shen, then Heroic Lei Shen is the exact same piece of content! I've basically killed it already! Helm of Command isn't even relevant, and the way the pillars work? Pshhhhhhhhh, that is EXACTLY the same as in LFR!

/sarcasm off

Heroic raiding is the only challenging content in the game nowadays outside of CMs and PvP, and I hate PvP. If it is really so "easy to create" and the same as normal, then obviously they're not spending many resources on it, so removing it wouldn't make content come out any faster. Your argument is completely unfounded. 4 difficulties for any kind of player. One size does not fit all.

[Cybran]

No I don't enjoy repeating the same boss at all. All the same face and mechanism. If hard-core players do enjoy challenging let them enjoy without H-tier as rewards so it won't inflict damage to the balance of this game which has been already serious.

What imbalances? You don't want people to have better gear and mounts than you?

[jbombard]

What imbalances? You don't want people to have better gear and mounts than you?

It adds to the problem we are having now that they are planning on addressing temporarily with the squish. If the sole reason for heroic is to provide a more challenging experience to those who want it, why do you need more rewards. Is the fun provided by the challenge not the reason you do it?

[Allatar]

What imbalances? You don't want people to have better gear and mounts than you?

It certainly appears to be what he's saying. His comment about heroic gear breaking the balance of the game makes it sound more and more like someone in heroic gear made a fool of him or handed him his arse.

[anaxie]

No I don't enjoy repeating the same boss at all. All the same face and mechanism. If hard-core players do enjoy challenging let them enjoy without H-tier as rewards so it won't inflict damage to the balance of this game which has been already serious.

Lets get one thing straight LFR/ Flex / normal really don't have the full set of mechanics. Heroic where EVERYTHING is important and must be delt with. Even on normal 70% of the mechanics are trivial and easy to ignore.

The step up is noticeable. And anyone saying easy I challenge you to even attempt heroic blackfuse.

[Allatar]

It adds to the problem we are having now that they are planning on addressing temporarily with the squish.

I don't believe for a minute that the squish has been made necessary because of the stats on heroic gear. It's necessary because of the way the stats have scaled overall and will have to continue scaling in future expacs. There was a graph knocking about that explained it quite well: the line went up slowly through vanilla, tbc and early wrath and then went practically perpendicular at the end of cata and into MoP.

Edit: found it.

[jbombard]

I don't believe for a minute that the squish has been made necessary because of the stats on heroic gear. It's necessary because of the way the stats have scaled overall and will have to continue scaling in future expacs. There was a graph knocking about that explained it quite well: the line went up slowly through vanilla, tbc and early wrath and then went practically perpendicular at the end of cata and into MoP.

Edit: found it.

The more modes you have, the more iLevel jumps you have per tier, it's that simple.

Edit:
And you do realize that is a hand drawn graph not made to be accurate but just made for illustrative purposes only.
Also I noticed you neatly avoided my question about challenge being for more fun and not rewards.

[Deleted]

It adds to the problem we are having now that they are planning on addressing temporarily with the squish. If the sole reason for heroic is to provide a more challenging experience to those who want it, why do you need more rewards. Is the fun provided by the challenge not the reason you do it?

Do you have any idea what the words you are saying mean?

What imbalance is caused by ilevel inflation? It causes ugly, huge numbers - there's no balance issues there. The item squish is not going to change balance one bit, it's just going to make the numbers look more reasonable, blizzard have made it painfully clear that everything will still functional identically, you'll just be hitting for 10k instead of 100k.

You really have no argument here bar throwing around nonsensical claims in the hope no one actually bothers to look at your sentence for more than 5 seconds before they throw a retort back.

Also I noticed you neatly avoided my question about challenge being for more fun and not rewards.

Why not have both?

In your ideal world, why not just remove gear from the game, there's no reason to have raid gear, right?
MMORPGs are built on the cornerstone of gear progression and character advancement, if you don't like that - it's the wrong game for you, go change what game you're playing as opposed to trying to get the game to change for you. I'm fairly sure Blizzard know what they're doing after managing to maintain the largest and most long lived MMO in existence for as many years as they have, and they've said numerous times that gear progression is mandatory.

[l33t]

Heroic raid IS necessary for us. Some people play games at EASY, because they want easy relaxed fun experience. Some people play HARD, because they want to overcome the hard challenge. Demanding to remove one of the modes automatically means that a lot of players won't have content to enjoy.

You also seem misguided around balance issues in game. You think if you limit heroic raider with a normal mode items, his performance will be on par with normal mode raider's one? Nope, it wouldn't. So why do you care? Raid the difficulty you prefer and let other people do the same.

[jbombard]

Do you have any idea what the words you are saying mean?

What imbalance is caused by ilevel inflation? It causes ugly, huge numbers - there's no balance issues there. The item squish is not going to change balance one bit, it's just going to make the numbers look more reasonable, blizzard have made it painfully clear that everything will still functional identically, you'll just be hitting for 10k instead of 100k.

You really have no argument here bar throwing around nonsensical claims in the hope no one actually bothers to look at your sentence for more than 5 seconds before they throw a retort back.

Do you actually read people's posts. I wasn't the one talking about imbalance that was billielecter.

The more modes we have the sooner the faster the iLevel goes up and the sooner we are back to where we are now.
But the point is really moot, because Blizzard doesn't give a shit if the players want it or not, the same with LFR. So long as people do it, it is less work they have to do making new content, which is why we have it in the first place, it isn't about challenge, it is about getting people to do the same content over and over again, which is Blizzards goals, so if they have to give you better gear or whatever to get people to do the same thing over and over they will because it is cheaper for them to do that as opposed to actually make new content for people to do.

[Deleted]

I'll bite.
Why should players, who have the time and WANT to do this, feel forced to do content not suited for their level of dedication?
Having the community on one common playing field can have its benefits, but think current World of Warcraft into this. It's been like this for so long, and I'd bet that alot of people (not trying to invoke majorities here, just saying alot) will feel gimped, myself included.

[Syh]

World of Warcraft is a game. It's something people play to pass time and enjoy, nothing in it is a 'necessary' to begin with. While none of the current difficulties are a necessity, they will all stay apart of this game for a long time to come because it suits the Blizzard's objective: to please every type of player they can.

There are many different types of players and each type require different levels of difficulty to stimulate them. If you take away 'their' difficulty it's likely that you will see a decrease of people interested in PvE or perhaps the game in general. They won't find it challenging anymore and they'll likely lose their interest very quickly. That's why I feel like the difficulties they have in the game are essential to accomplish their objective and to please a mass amount of people with the same game; Heroic mode included.

[iggie]

There should be three different difficulty levels.

LFR for people who have random time blocks
Flex for casuals
Regular for raiders (easier than heroic but harder than normal mode now)

Remove all "heroic" modes. You kill the boss once, it's binary, like back in Burning Crusade.

[billielecter]

Yes but I quite think removing H-modes will result in decrease of subscribers but lowing down the difficult level of this game will bring more subscribers as they can experience the whole content without being left behind.

World of Warcraft is a game. It's something people play to pass time and enjoy, nothing in it is a 'necessary' to begin with. While none of the current difficulties are a necessity, they will all stay apart of this game for a long time to come because it suits the Blizzard's objective: to please every type of player they can.

There are many different types of players and each type require different levels of difficulty to stimulate them. If you take away 'their' difficulty it's likely that you will see a decrease of people interested in PvE or perhaps the game in general. They won't find it challenging anymore and they'll likely lose their interest very quickly. That's why I feel like the difficulties they have in the game are essential to accomplish their objective and to please a mass amount of people with the same game; Heroic mode included.

[Djuntas]

Just gief TBC styled raiding back, that is all.