a Holy priest paradox

[Mazi]

It doesn't mean that Holy is ideal for Garrosh. Every single raid mechanic on Garrosh can be handled by a Disc Priest much better.

Still, the DPS checks for the Chinese don't seem as severe as they would for the US/EU guilds due to the increased ilevels providing a bigger benefit than the 8% HP increase. Early H-Garrosh kills are going to want a raid comp that maximizes their DPS, and Atonement DPS is where Disc truly has Holy beat.

You skipped half of my post where I said that both specs are good and both specs should be used in almost every fight. Yes. Holy and Disc can exist in the same raid. It's a crazy concept, I know.

Even on Normal Garrosh our Disc Priest (who is absolutely outstanding) nearly went Holy for DH and the pure throughput needed at the end of the fight. We'll see how this plays out on Heroic.

If it's not a patchwerk fight, then the DPS from Disc really doesn't matter. I don't know why people put soooooo much weight on this in 25 man. The only fight where I ever felt like "man I wish I could heal and do more DPS" was Norushen on week 2, I was sat for 2x Disc week 1 (which emphasizes my point of patchwerk fight). Absorbs are great, yes. They snipe and provide effective health creating the appearance of higher throughput. What really matters is being able to put out burst damage when it matters most. 80% of the time people do not need to be healed up the instant they take damage so all Atonement is doing is taking away from hots, etc.

Healing is in a shitty place overall. Currently the game is really just about spamming smart heals and CDs and it's relatively boring. I liked Malkorok Heroic because it actually required some thought (some).

[Basmothh]

You skipped half of my post where I said that both specs are good and both specs should be used in almost every fight. Yes. Holy and Disc can exist in the same raid. It's a crazy concept, I know.

Even on Normal Garrosh our Disc Priest (who is absolutely outstanding) nearly went Holy for DH and the pure throughput needed at the end of the fight. We'll see how this plays out on Heroic.

If it's not a patchwerk fight, then the DPS from Disc really doesn't matter. I don't know why people put soooooo much weight on this in 25 man. The only fight where I ever felt like "man I wish I could heal and do more DPS" was Norushen on week 2, I was sat for 2x Disc week 1 (which emphasizes my point of patchwerk fight). Absorbs are great, yes. They snipe and provide effective health creating the appearance of higher throughput. What really matters is being able to put out burst damage when it matters most. 80% of the time people do not need to be healed up the instant they take damage so all Atonement is doing is taking away from hots, etc.

Healing is in a shitty place overall. Currently the game is really just about spamming smart heals and CDs and it's relatively boring. I liked Malkorok Heroic because it actually required some thought (some).

But why bring a Disc and Holy when double Disc brings more of a benefit to the raid?

You're right about healing being in a shitty place though, and the healing comp is ultimately inconsequential to the success of the raid so long as it's comprised of competent healers. It has mostly become a game of who can snipe heals the fastest at this stage, which is what allows Disc to excel and its why Holy is so disadvantaged this tier.

Still, if your raid is pushing for world first kills and looking to completely min/max, then double Disc (or even 1 Disc and sitting the Holy Priest for a Resto Shaman) would be the way to go.

[Mazi]

Still, if your raid is pushing for world first kills and looking to completely min/max, then double Disc (or even 1 Disc and sitting the Holy Priest for a Resto Shaman) would be the way to go.

Why are you even talking about this? How many guild are pushing for WORLD FIRST? Really? As I said, you're talking in a bubble. WoW is far bigger than Method & Blood Legion. I don't see the benefit at ALL about talking about world first guilds in a thread like this. Those people know exactly what to do. The people here that want to discuss are not those people. /shrug

[Richenda]

Ever since disc got hit with a nerf for this patch, our shaman is ecstatic because she can top the meters again. I've been considering trying holy on more than just the "off" fights (I go holy for Thok, Malkorok, and occasionally Nazgrim at the moment, but play disc most of the time in our 10m).

[Fluttershy]

It would appear disc still beats the hell out of holy almost everywhere in 10/25 according to world of logs. And holy in 10mans is still a rarity.

[Mazi]

It would appear disc still beats the hell out of holy almost everywhere in 10/25 according to world of logs. And holy in 10mans is still a rarity.

Because everything is based on meters, right?

[xdmemes]

Group-based PoH is the real underlying issue with Holy.

[Mazi]

Group-based PoH is the real underlying issue with Holy.

They said they will be addressing this in 6.0. Can't freaking wait. I hope they remove the restrictions of Chakra too and instead make them more of a bonus.

[Music]

Group-based PoH is the real underlying issue with Holy.

Agree that this is kind of annoying on some fights, but most fights you can have groups set up well enough that you can hit 4-5 per cast regularly.

Immerseus (5% healing), Sha (2.7%), and Juggernaut (5.1%) are really the only fights I have issues hitting people on. However, there's such a huge range of healing that my PoH does on a fight-by-fight basis that I'm not really too concerned with it, as I can generally put out "enough" throughput without having PoH hit 4-5 every cast.

This week my low (excluding Thok) was Sha H (2.7%) and my high was Malk H(15%). The majority of the other fights, excluding those I posted above, were in the 10% area most of the time.

Do agree that it should be adjusted somehow, because having to set up groups to heal efficiently is quite silly.

[laplacedemon]

They said they will be addressing this in 6.0. Can't freaking wait. I hope they remove the restrictions of Chakra too and instead make them more of a bonus.

I really hope they have bigger changes to healing in general than making PoH another smart heal and calling it 'fixed'.

[Mazi]

I really hope they have bigger changes to healing in general than making PoH another smart heal and calling it 'fixed'.

Oh me too for sure. It'll be interesting.

[Dracodraco]

Ah yes, it benefits the healing part the same, but not the damage part, and one of the selling points for atonement is to sacrifice some (unneeded?) healing throughput for some dps. So the trinket only really benefits most of atonement but not all parts of it.
You can't really count the benefit from mastery as "benefiting twice", because it is just how that mastery works for other healing sources as well.

Also the atonement part was just to show how easily one could doubt the fact that "the trinket undoubtedly benefits atonement the most" when stated without giving any reasoning behind it.
I do indeed think that its benefits of the trinket to both specs should should have a relation to each other similar to the relation pure stats have to each other for those specs. (Because I disregard the damage component of atonement in this comparison, as including it would need guessing of the relative worth of the damage done compared to the healing done.)

I don't think you are correct that it should benefit less from Atonement.
Consider the following -
You have a 50k normal hit from smite. There's also interaction with mastery here (but so is there for paladins, druids etc, so let's just ignore it for simplicity).
You crit on the mob - it becomes a 100K*1.09=109K crit damage wise (benefit: 9% damage).
This turns into a 50K critical heal+absorb before modifiers.
50K heal*1.09 mod = 54.5K.
50K absorb*1.09 mod = 54.5k.

Turns your overall benefit into 18% when you crit, thus losing nothing.
However, what this doesn't cover, is the fact that if your first damage spell hit for 109K, would you not then heal for 54.5K and absorb for 54.5K - essentially double-dipping the bonus, as it'd then be 54.5*1.09?


And in case of normal healing, you'd still benefit "the same" - it's just 2x heals instead of 1x heal (1 absorb, 1 heal).

[Brightmist]

As long as disc dishes out this amount of absorbs compared to it's healing OR absorbs aren't made partial in the future, holy will pretty much keep being overshadowed by disc except pulsing damage or tortos style fights. They need to revamp both specs differentiating their main healing spells starting with 90 tals (which will always be the same for all fights more or less) and PoH.

If they don't plan on changing absorb mechanics or important spells, they should just make it so that disc will have way less throughput than holy so absorbs don't shine this much.

[Blachshma]

But why bring a Disc and Holy when double Disc brings more of a benefit to the raid?

You're right about healing being in a shitty place though, and the healing comp is ultimately inconsequential to the success of the raid so long as it's comprised of competent healers. It has mostly become a game of who can snipe heals the fastest at this stage, which is what allows Disc to excel and its why Holy is so disadvantaged this tier.

Still, if your raid is pushing for world first kills and looking to completely min/max, then double Disc (or even 1 Disc and sitting the Holy Priest for a Resto Shaman) would be the way to go.

Because this is eventually a game and people want to have fun, hence play their favorite spec? You can count on one hand the guilds who are seriously racing for world firsts (and even they bring holy priests to some of the kills), the rest of the guilds are progressing at their own pace. Personally I play both specs but much prefer holy and have only played disc on Sha so far.

[Basmothh]

Because this is eventually a game and people want to have fun, hence play their favorite spec? You can count on one hand the guilds who are seriously racing for world firsts (and even they bring holy priests to some of the kills), the rest of the guilds are progressing at their own pace. Personally I play both specs but much prefer holy and have only played disc on Sha so far.

Tell that to any Priest in a top-100 guild or to Priests in 10-mans.

Still, if hardcore progression isn't your focus, and if trying to maximize one's personal performance isn't a crucial factor, then being Disc or Holy is basically a non-factor. This is largely in part due to how low the healing requirements are this tier, which renders any factors related to healing pretty inconsequential.

On the other hand, the disparity in raid performance between the two specs constrains the majority of progression minded 25-man (moreso if your guild only runs with one Priest) and especially 10-man Priests to one spec - Disc. But see, that isn't the only factor that pushes such Priests towards Disc. There are other equally valid factors that attract people to play Disc, and these are factors that don't actually have any impact on the success of your raid.

Firstly, Disc's better individual performance tends to make Disc more fun for many raiding Priests. Disc also has a much better toolkit that's more adept at handling the mechanics this tier, and having a less clunky toolkit actually makes a stark difference in the enjoyment one can derive from this game.

Regardless, one can certainly pull good numbers and find success with Holy, but you need to consider that it's largely due to Holy having access to ridiculously strong level 90 talents. Take that away and all you're left with is a clunky toolkit. PoH's grouping constrains, the Chakra mechanic (notably, HW: Sanc) and Holy's woeful lack of raid utility have certainly not kept up with the changes/buffs the other specs have received. Disc may be equally reliant on these level 90 talents, but at least it has other viable tools to fall back on if need be.

Ultimately, I think it's a good thing to have a discussion about the disparity between Disc and Holy, not only in terms of numbers but also how outdated Holy's toolkit feels, especially in this era of ubiquitous raid CDs and smart/ground heals. It's not good game design to be completely reliant on a single talent to remain competitive.

[Deleted]

Well now, to be fair, Holy is the only healer in the game capable of presently handling Garrosh 10 HC. So they've got that going for them. It's got to count for something, right?

[Basmothh]

Well now, to be fair, Holy is the only healer in the game capable of presently handling Garrosh 10 HC. So they've got that going for them. It's got to count for something, right?

Solo healing that must be fun. Not being sniped by all the damned smart/ground heals or overabundance of raid CDs, whilst having loads of damage to heal, is a dream for every Holy Priest. If only we could be as fortunate in 25-mans! :\

Anyway, congrats on the WF 10-man kill!

[nobodysbaby]

Well now, to be fair, Holy is the only healer in the game capable of presently handling Garrosh 10 HC. So they've got that going for them. It's got to count for something, right?

Wow, really? You need Spirit of redemption glyphed or GS for something? Now you MUST tell us the secret or I atleast wont be able to sleep.

Whats your oppinion on the other fights I wonder aswell.

- - - Updated - - -

Solo healing that must be fun. Not being sniped by all the damned smart/ground heals or overabundance of raid CDs, whilst having loads of damage to heal, is a dream for every Holy Priest. If only we could be as fortunate in 25-mans! :\

Yeah, I feel that is the problem aswell. Here we finally got infinate mana, but wheres the dmg? I reforged from 17k spirit down to 12, and oh well... Raise the glass to winning overhealing:-D

[Deleted]

Wow, really? You need Spirit of redemption glyphed or GS for something? Now you MUST tell us the secret or I atleast wont be able to sleep.

Nothing to do with gimmicks. Holy has always excelled at low healer counts, and the 10-man kit got really, really strong with the 2-set and changes to Surge of Light and Twist of Fate.

Whats your oppinion on the other fights I wonder aswell.

Like what? I play Holy on 9 of the 14 fights if that's what you're asking.

[nobodysbaby]

Nothing to do with gimmicks. Holy has always excelled at low healer counts, and the 10-man kit got really, really strong with the 2-set and changes to Surge of Light and Twist of Fate.


Like what? I play Holy on 9 of the 14 fights if that's what you're asking.

Really glad to hear, honestly I am, and not surprised the more I think of it. I can only imagine how fun it would be to "underheal" fights, we had 6 for all but Spoils (and an excellent Disc not making it easy for heals to come through).

The fights dont do Holy justice, if you heal a 25m with 6 healers.