Anyone else miss the different 10 and 25 man raids?

[Mamut]

As title says I wonder who else miss the "old raid model" where we had different 10 man raids and 25 different like Karazhan, Zul'Aman as 10 mans and then 25 mans like Gruul, SC, TK etc?
Would you like to see this again (more than 2 10 mans per expansion)? Or maybe you prefer the current model where every raid have two versions?

Personally I realy would like to see again separate raids. Your opinion?

[Deleted]

It would be awesome but patches took longer to come out due to it which people hated, so its a bit of a pay off between the two, not an easy choice.

[Seriss]

It was nice back then because I was in a 25-man guild. 10-mans were done with alts or on off-nights. Now that 10-mans are more than just a subset of the players a 25-man guild has on its roster, things would need to drastically de-evolve back into older abandoned raid models.

[lunchbox2042]

The only option to raid more than two raids was to go 25 man. There wasn't a viable way to keep a 10 man together with just Kara and ZA. Imagine doing ToT for 2 years instead of 6 months. That's what it was like for some raiders back in BC who could only do 10 mans.

[Deleted]

For this to happen we would need twice an many raids. Basically we would be waiting for new raids twice as long.
So no.

[Mamut]

The only option to raid more than two raids was to go 25 man. There wasn't a viable way to keep a 10 man together with just Kara and ZA. Imagine doing ToT for 2 years instead of 6 months. That's what it was like for some raiders back in BC who could only do 10 mans.

But I said more than two 10 man raids per expansion. And with flex mode already live how hard would be to get around 15 people to do 25 mans?

[Zantera]

Yeah, the old system was one of the things I really loved about TBC. You had the smaller raids like Kara and ZA, perfect for doing with a couple of friends on a Friday-night, but you also had the bigger, more epic (in a different way) raids.

One of the reasons I disliked WotLK was because they totally ruined this system, and the whole "every raid has both a 10 and 25-man mode" just ruined a part of the game for me.

[Nobleshield]

I answered no to the question of DIFFERENT 10/25 man raids, and I'll explain why. The idea of forcing 25 people to do any meaningful content is a very poor way to handle things, and just crushes guilds that can't field 25 people or relegates them to "second rate" citizens. Now, I have never played TBC as current content, but I played RIFT for quite some time and RIFT has a similar structure: The raid sizes are 10 and 20 man, with different raids. The problem with this is if you are in a guild that can't field 20 people, you are utterly screwed. RIFT uses hit and toughness (similar to the old Defense stat) as gating for each "tier" of content; that is for example you need 400 Hit rating for the first tier of raids, and 500 Hit for the next tier of raids to be able to hit the bosses. However, the 10M raid is NOT enough gear to gear up for the next tier of content. So for example, the first tier (actually Tier 4 but first tier of the expansion) had three raids: One 10M and two 20M raids (one harder, one easier). The next tier released had a 10M raid that was on a higher tier (and later 20Ms I believe), but just doing the original 10M would not give you enough Hit/Toughness to do the second tier 10M raid. This forced guilds that couldn't field 20 people to simply burn out doing the same small 10M raid every week without any meaningful upgrades as you couldn't field 20 people to do the 20M (or you could but failed) and that prevented you from seeing any other content.

This is from my understanding what happened to a lot of TBC guilds, and would almost certainly happen again if it were to ever rear its ugly head. I'm not a fan of the shared lockout, but I would absolutely hate to be stuck only able to do a fraction of the content simply for lack of having 25 people geared and ready and able to meet the schedule.

So no, different 10 and 25 man raids need to stay away for good and never darken the skies again.

[lopk]

Yes x1000000. In my guild, 10 mans were the "fun run." A lot of times we ran it on alts, so the loot was still worth it, but it wasn't necessarily about progression, but rather about having a little fun with 9 other people. 25 mans were when we kicked it into high gear and really challenged ourselves.

Besides, I'm someone who literally would raid 3 hours every night if he could. BUT, I don't quite have the mechanical skill / experience to join a hardcore guild that does so. By having these different modes, I was able to get literally double the amount of raiding done. As one can imagine, it was a huge blow to me when it was announced that they no longer would be separate.

[Deleted]

I perfectly know these forums, since I have been browsing them (without posting) since they first became popular, so I can pretty much see how the next few pages will be all about "current raiding model is perfect I am a casual with 300 kids and work 25 hours a day I want my lfr and I want my 10m I feel that I deserve to kill the fun for the hardcore players so I can play a game I shouldn't even be playing; I prefer 10m on an equal level of difficulty because 10m is two times harder than 25m and 25m are noobs, f##k those 25m guilds they are killing wow; etc".

What you guys don't understand is that before cataclysm, casuals did a lfr-like difficulty with 10 people, which was millions of times better than 3 different lockouts, one for casual players #1, one for casual players #2, and one for normal players (hc today is equal to normal back then). Back then, everything was perfect and (almost) no one was complaining about all that stuff that you currently see. The more you shitpost on the blizz forums how you have to breastfeed your thousand kids and don't have time left for WoW because of that, the more you will keep killing the game, and in the end you will have a fully casual-friendly game with 2-3mil total subs.

I understand that you don't have time. That's even good, means you are occupied with stuff that actually matters. What I don't understand is why do you want to kill the fun for everyone else so much, and sometimes you are even trying to push it like your life depends on it.

[Deleted]

Really love Wotlk<3
I made plenty of friend's>
Guilds was significally increased and the best was becoming stable.

Take now my Server<
Genjuros Tbc and Wotlk we had a stable reputation within Guilds. I mean 130 Guilds stable for near 3 year's.
Cataclysm and different lockout came and we end up now with 3 raiding guilds..
I think you got the point.

[Deleted]

they're different difficulties, never tuned the same... they"'re a different game . Yes they should be exclusive lockouts.
Otherwise, might as well put LFR, flex, 10 and 25 (and why not 5 mans) on the same lockout.

EDIT :; misunderstood at first, but my reply remains the same.
I think it would be a lot better to ahve some 10 man raids, and some 25. The aim of this game is to create bonds (yknow, MMORPG), so the argument of 25 mans would be advantaged doesnt hold any ground : go recurt / join a bigger guild and have more options for fun. just like when you pug pdeople for a 5 man whilst levelling.

[Kurzior]

they're different difficulties, never tuned the same... they"'re a different game . Yes they should be exclusive lockouts.
Otherwise, might as well put LFR, flex, 10 and 25 (and why not 5 mans) on the same lockout.

EDIT :; misunderstood at first, but my reply remains the same.
I think it would be a lot better to ahve some 10 man raids, and some 25. The aim of this game is to create bonds (yknow, MMORPG), so the argument of 25 mans would be advantaged doesnt hold any ground : go recurt / join a bigger guild and have more options for fun. just like when you pug pdeople for a 5 man whilst levelling.

For a lot of people 25's just aren't an option. Whether it's due to time or something as simple as equipment, or even server population (because there are servers out there with pathetically low populations on one side or the other). Let's be honest, playing a game at 5 fps just is not fun. If I were in that position, I wouldn't be playing wow. It would be too frustrating. From that perspective, having 25/10 specific content blocks people from content artificially, which simply doesn't work today.

While I do agree people should be encouraged to play in groups and work together, form a community and so on, forcing that to happen by gating content behind group size isn't the right way to do it. To me, this is the best thing about flex mode. It's not the highest level of content, so hardcore players still get to do their progression races, but other players still have a chance to see the raids, and there is still some sense of working together as a team in flex, at least for the people who should be there, rather than hardcore raiders just looking for some supplement to their gearing.