[Balance] T16H BiS List

[Stommped]

amr also favors crafty gems when needed if it can gain secondary stats some where else, thing is we aren't elemental shamans where one stat equals the other and when you are high in one stat the other gains value, so technically you don't particularly need your own personal stat weights as long as haste to cap > crit > mastery > haste over cap then you are going to always get the best possibly gear gain, it's your choice if you don't want to use amr that's fine but don't try and discredit it when its actually a very valuable tool now than it was.

I don't believe I ever discredited it. You guys just made it seem like it was impossible to optimize your gear without using it, even though that's exactly what was done in the OP of this thread to obtain the BIS list. Using Reforgelite WITH Wrathcalcs is a perfectly plausible way to optimize your gear. I just trust WC more so if AMR were to tell me to change something and WC spit out lower DPS when I put that into the spreadsheet then there's no question I would ignore it.

[Lilija]

I don't believe I ever discredited it. You guys just made it seem like it was impossible to optimize your gear without using it, even though that's exactly what was done in the OP of this thread to obtain the BIS list. Using Reforgelite WITH Wrathcalcs is a perfectly plausible way to optimize your gear. I just trust WC more so if AMR were to tell me to change something and WC spit out lower DPS when I put that into the spreadsheet then there's no question I would ignore it.

I also trust WC's weights more, however, since AMR has the possibility to put your own stat weights, it is a much faster tool on a day to day basis. I used to use WC and Reforgelite myself to do all the gear adjustments but since I'm recently extremly busy and have hardly any time for WoW outside of raids, AMR is my life saver.

[Slippykins]

I also trust WC's weights more, however, since AMR has the possibility to put your own stat weights, it is a much faster tool on a day to day basis. I used to use WC and Reforgelite myself to do all the gear adjustments but since I'm recently extremly busy and have hardly any time for WoW outside of raids, AMR is my life saver.

For gearing up your character and assessing what to do when you get a new piece I find AMR to be the easiest way to attain the most efficient gemming/reforging, as long as the 10289 haste bp is selected and it's maxing crit.

For the BiS I only tinker around with WrathCalcs by following a set of rules for maximisation. That includes a lot of things AMR does automatically, so if AMR has a way to optimise a theoretical set of gear (not an import), then I could see myself starting there and then confirming with WrathCalcs. I'm not sure AMR has that functionality though.

[Lilija]

For gearing up your character and assessing what to do when you get a new piece I find AMR to be the easiest way to attain the most efficient gemming/reforging, as long as the 10289 haste bp is selected and it's maxing crit.

For the BiS I only tinker around with WrathCalcs by following a set of rules for maximisation. That includes a lot of things AMR does automatically, so if AMR has a way to optimise a theoretical set of gear (not an import), then I could see myself starting there and then confirming with WrathCalcs. I'm not sure AMR has that functionality though.

Exactly

The problem with AMR for finding out BiS items is that its stat weights do not adjust based on gear changes. I've actually tried to use my current WC weights in AMR to check out what BiS list I would get and I ended up with less INT, crit and a lot more mastery than in WC BiS list.

[Fleuria]

For gearing up your character and assessing what to do when you get a new piece I find AMR to be the easiest way to attain the most efficient gemming/reforging, as long as the 10289 haste bp is selected and it's maxing crit.

For the BiS I only tinker around with WrathCalcs by following a set of rules for maximisation. That includes a lot of things AMR does automatically, so if AMR has a way to optimise a theoretical set of gear (not an import), then I could see myself starting there and then confirming with WrathCalcs. I'm not sure AMR has that functionality though.

Pretty much this, amr is just tons easier to quickly modify your gear as it always give the best possibly results if its setup correctly, how ever i'd never trust it to make a bis list x)

[huth]

No, you're wrong. As I said before, if you're able to gain more from a reforge by gemming haste somewhere overall becomes a gain. I really doubt you can go over every possible solution in your head yourself to find the most optimal one. And if you don't like to get the most out of your gear, that's you sacrifice, but it's just plain stupid to punish your raid for your laziness because you couldn't open up a website to see if it had a better gearing solution.

That 90% of the time wasted several hundred gold to give you an unnoticeable increase. Optimizing for anything beyond the first three digits is a waste of time.

[Alzu]

That 90% of the time wasted several hundred gold to give you an unnoticeable increase. Optimizing for anything beyond the first three digits is a waste of time.

Ever seen the pictures about sub-1% wipes? Yeah, so have I. Everything counts when progressing a new boss. Besides, a thousand gold isn't exactly much nowadays.

[huth]

Ever seen the pictures about sub-1% wipes? Yeah, so have I. Everything counts when progressing a new boss. Besides, a thousand gold isn't exactly much nowadays.

When you have 3-5% RNG, it gets completely drowned out by that. You wouldn't even be able to tell whether it actually had the predicted effect.

Optimising for DPS increases that are a magnitude below RNG is a complete waste.

[Aboubacar]

When you have 3-5% RNG, it gets completely drowned out by that. You wouldn't even be able to tell whether it actually had the predicted effect.

Optimising for DPS increases that are a magnitude below RNG is a complete waste.

I'd be willing to spend 10k on a 2dps increase. But, this is a dead arguement. Some people care about min/maxing some people do not. If you do, it's worth the little extra gold/ time to check a website for an additional solution just to see what it says. Each week, after raids and progress i check again for different gear setups + compare them side-by-side in wrathcalcs. I used to put it into simcraft for lols, but I'm kind of at the point where I think its 100% wrong.

to each his own

[huth]

So you'd be willing to waste money on something that may not be an increase or even a decrease due to being smaller than the error of our theorycrafting tools? Well, that's your problem then.

[Aboubacar]

So you'd be willing to waste money on something that may not be an increase or even a decrease due to being smaller than the error of our theorycrafting tools? Well, that's your problem then.

100 increased stats is an increase. Putting gold over your performance in a raid is just wrong b/c you're too cheap to buy a gem or two. Like I said, if you're willing to punish 24 other people for your laziness/cheapness it's your fault not mine.

[kosars]

100 increased stats is an increase. Putting gold over your performance in a raid is just wrong b/c you're too cheap to buy a gem or two. Like I said, if you're willing to punish 24 other people for your laziness/cheapness it's your fault not mine.

There's a difference between a 100 stat increase and a "dps increase". A "dps increase" may be such things as a slight crit increase at the cost of int or mastery or something. A paper dps increase, but not necessarily a stat increase.

I'm guessing here the point he was making (which I agree with.. at least I agree with my understanding of it) - is that a straight up positive stat increase with no negatives is always worth it. But shifting stats around for a minor dps gain in spreadsheets/sims probably isn't - due simply to what he said - margin of error on sim tools. (Yes, it exists).

I don't think anyone would argue that shifting around gems/reforges for a net gain overall isn't worth it. (most often the "loss" here comes from stuff like excess hit you get to siphon off. Occasionally taking better advantages of socket bonuses). If they do, they're an idiot. But like I said, stat increase and dps increase aren't the same thing.

[Glurp]

When you have 3-5% RNG, it gets completely drowned out by that. You wouldn't even be able to tell whether it actually had the predicted effect.

Optimising for DPS increases that are a magnitude below RNG is a complete waste.

Optimization is optimization. You're just being an argumentative prick because you refuse to accept the fact that you're wrong.

[Deleted]

You pretty much only gem haste when you can't reach the cap through reforging alone. You only ignore socket bonuses if you can't make use of them.

Again, by gemming some Haste - in certain gear set-ups - you can get closer to all the relevant breakpoints and squeeze out more high value stats in the end.

I could easily reach the Haste breakpoint through reforging alone but thanks to one Quick Sunstone and some Expertise gems, I am only:
- 5 Haste over the GCD cap
- 0.01% under Hit cap

More importantly, if you input my character into Wrath Calcs, you will find out that alternative gem/reforging set-ups will yield lower dps. Thanks to AMR calculating it for me, I don't have to check endless combinations of gemming and reforging (which would not be practically possible anyway).

The biggest problem I see with using AMR is the fact that it doesn't update stat weights.

1) Open Wrath Calcs
2) Update your character in the first tab
3) Click on the second tab
4) Press F9 to get stat weights for you current gear set-up
5) Input those stat weights manually into AMR

There you go, sorted.

[Stommped]

Again, by gemming some Haste - in certain gear set-ups - you can get closer to all the relevant breakpoints and squeeze out more high value stats in the end.

I could easily reach the Haste breakpoint through reforging alone but thanks to one Quick Sunstone and some Expertise gems, I am only:
- 5 Haste over the GCD cap
- 0.01% under Hit cap

More importantly, if you input my character into Wrath Calcs, you will find out that alternative gem/reforging set-ups will yield lower dps. Thanks to AMR calculating it for me, I don't have to check endless combinations of gemming and reforging (which would not be practically possible anyway).



1) Open Wrath Calcs
2) Update your character in the first tab
3) Click on the second tab
4) Press F9 to get stat weights for you current gear set-up
5) Input those stat weights manually into AMR

There you go, sorted.

You clearly either didn't read the rest of my post or didn't comprehend it. Thanks for letting me know how to use Wrathcalcs though, after 4 years of using the tool I could see why you would think that I wouldn't know how to utilize one of its' most basic functions.

[Deleted]

You clearly either didn't read the rest of my post or didn't comprehend it. Thanks for letting me know how to use Wrathcalcs though, after 4 years of using the tool I could see why you would think that I wouldn't know how to utilize one of its' most basic functions.

You did end your post saying that you feel the need to remind us that the BiS list uses Wrath Calcs and not AMR.

Obviously, the default AMR stat weights are wrong and there is no point in using it unless you manually update them.

[Juvencus]

You did end your post saying that you feel the need to remind us that the BiS list uses Wrath Calcs and not AMR.

Obviously, the default AMR stat weights are wrong and there is no point in using it unless you manually update them.

Again if you read his whole post you would have noticed that the point he want's to bring across is that stat weights can change mid-gemming/mid-reforging. That makes the dynamic WC superior to the static AMR in this specific area, because either you use your current stat weights or arbitrary numbers that still have the stat priorities correct it still won't change the fact that AMR will be static.

[Lilija]

1) Open Wrath Calcs
2) Update your character in the first tab
3) Click on the second tab
4) Press F9 to get stat weights for you current gear set-up
5) Input those stat weights manually into AMR

There you go, sorted.

It works for looking for some current upgrades and gemming/reforging. However, cause of that it won't do much good when looking for BiS gear.

[Deleted]

Again if you read his whole post you would have noticed that the point he want's to bring across is that stat weights can change mid-gemming/mid-reforging. That makes the dynamic WC superior to the static AMR in this specific area, because either you use your current stat weights or arbitrary numbers that still have the stat priorities correct it still won't change the fact that AMR will be static.

It is true but whenever I checked my stat weights before and after optimising my gear, the differences were very slight.

It works for looking for some current upgrades and gemming/reforging. However, cause of that it won't do much good when looking for BiS gear.

Yep but we had Slippy put a huge amount of work into comparing all the gear pieces against each other (there is a full list somewhere in this thread iirc, I copied it for my own use anyways).

[Deleted]

I understand that calculating everything takes a lot of time and effort and it's not like it can easily be re-done, however I am afraid that the accuracy of the Heroic BiS list and the DPS comparison of each piece of gear is questionable now that there seems to be a consensus within the community that Dream of Cenarius is a talent not worth taking because whilst it does increase DPS on paper, it adds a lot of complexity which might result in lower performance, and it reduces our utility as well.

I strongly believe that Incarnation and Heart of the Wild should be the two talents picked as they are the ones being used the vast majority of the time during this raid tier (and you'll see them on most of the highest parses as well).

The problem with that talent selection, however, is that Wrath Calcs will show Mastery being worth more than Critical Strike for some gear set-ups (or at least Mastery being very slightly behind). Therefore mathematical calculations would prefer Mastery gear and tell us to stack that stat. Now that's obviously not correct because every single SoO encounter requires movement, increasing the actual value of Critical Strike because of extra SS procs which are the only viable DPS option when moving. So when optimising gear for myself I tweak the Mastery value manually so that it's clearly lower than Crit (but obviously still much higher than Haste post-10296). I am not sure how that would work for a BiS gear list, though.