Any word on Crowd Chooses you?

[gestapo]

Honestly this is how it should be:
The team with the most alive team members wins ( no more turtle healer ties in 2s)
If you tie, neither team loses or gains rating.

If you cant win, you cant win but you wont lose points because of stupid turtles.

Yep. Weighing in all the responses now it's clear that this is the ONLY logical solution.

[Verain]

I really like the buff. I like that after 15 minutes, the better team wins. I can play 2s again and enjoy them, because I no longer have to fight for 45 minutes at least once out of every seven games, ending with a draw (which is a loss).

I also enjoy this: If I'm in a game where I know that the crowd will choose the opponent team, I can leave. This has happened once. Mostly the game goes for 15 minutes and then I just one shot everyone which is super pleasing.



I'm not saying the buff is without issue. If people are exploiting it with death knights, or stealth, or I don't care what, then the buff needs to not pick them. Why would the crowd choose blood death knights anyway? The crowd should recognize a deviant strategy and punish it. Walk in with double resto druids? No. Something like that.


But it's much much much much much much better than before. 2s is back, and playable. Nothing was more demoralizing than logging on to play with a friend and getting in some eternal stalemate versus a team of derps that just can't die ever but can't get a kill either. Now one of us will be the clear winner. They can still troll us for a quarter of an hour, but no more, and after that, I get their points, instead of both of us losing.


MUCH better.

[Deleted]

I really like the buff. I like that after 15 minutes, the better team wins. I can play 2s again and enjoy them, because I no longer have to fight for 45 minutes at least once out of every seven games, ending with a draw (which is a loss).

I also enjoy this: If I'm in a game where I know that the crowd will choose the opponent team, I can leave. This has happened once. Mostly the game goes for 15 minutes and then I just one shot everyone which is super pleasing.



I'm not saying the buff is without issue. If people are exploiting it with death knights, or stealth, or I don't care what, then the buff needs to not pick them. Why would the crowd choose blood death knights anyway? The crowd should recognize a deviant strategy and punish it. Walk in with double resto druids? No. Something like that.


But it's much much much much much much better than before. 2s is back, and playable. Nothing was more demoralizing than logging on to play with a friend and getting in some eternal stalemate versus a team of derps that just can't die ever but can't get a kill either. Now one of us will be the clear winner. They can still troll us for a quarter of an hour, but no more, and after that, I get their points, instead of both of us losing.


MUCH better.

There were 2 changes with the patch:

-The max game duration has been reduced to 15min
-At max game duration the buff kicks in.

Many people are extremely happy with the first one (I am too). Doesn't mean that the second change was a good change to make.

[t3180]

Yep. Weighing in all the responses now it's clear that this is the ONLY logical solution.

if no one losing rating when tie why would even try kill when healer/dps vs healer/dps or other comb that feels hard. Just play turtle and hope next time you get easier comb. 2 blood dk would be strong or even 2 healer. Play whit 2 priest and if you take enough games you are in 3k rating in 2v2.

[Verain]

TCCY is complete and utterl bull****. It has completly changed how people play the game and largely not for the positive. There's so many turtle comps now around and most healer + dps teams are also playing extremly defensive.

See, here's my position on this:

I always liked healer dps as a 2s setup. But the issue has always been similar: it wasn't worth queueing. Double dps was a win or a loss, but fine. Another healer dps setup was a long goddamned draw. Blizzard slowly got rid of the stuff that made 2s playable back in BC. We lost the mana drains, the good mortal strike that forced heavy heals, the slow regen, the difficulty of drinking due to a paucity of CC, etc. Instead we were left with one strategy only: CC something hard while blowing cooldowns into the other thing.

And even that was largely ineffective, because healers are balanced for 3s now, so they were too good in 2s.

These are core issues with the game. But they are issues that have only gotten worse and worse. We suddenly got this "giant tree of extra CC choices", with some classes explicitly getting to choose CCs depending on their partners- "do you want your disorient considered a disorient, a stun, or a fear?". Fuck that! But that's what we have.


So in comes this buff. Now I can actually queue on my healer. It was so disheartening for games to go for so long. So much that I hated 2s enough not to queue- I was never having any fun, because the game sucked. Now they changed the rules, and it doesn't suck anymore.


I always saw "turtle comps". And after 10 minutes of no deaths, it became obvious that you had to outsmart your opponents, which as time has progressed, has become harder and harder, because opponents are people and people have learned over the years. I can't get an average arena player to overextend. I can't get them to blow a useless trinket with any reliability. Instead, I have to try to capitalize on mistakes, which sure, happen, but whatever. So instead I end up trying for a CC chain, getting someone low, and then out come some cooldows that negate everything. As an example, if I disorienting roar on my resto druid and then NS Cyclone the healer, then I can often root the dps. The longest cooldown here was 60 seconds, and I just bought my dps and me 3 seconds of anything and 8 seconds of something.

So I think "turtle comps" already existed. But what I'm seeing now is, they made the arena rules in line with the game that they made. If they want to make a game like they used to, sure, not needed. But I want to point out, I had really super long games back in the day- they were just not every night. But in 5.1 or w/e I would be sure to get some super long useless crap every few queues.


Fix the buff if it is being exploited, but please, keep it. This game is playable for the first goddamned time in years in 2s.


Is the buff destroying 3s? I haven't played many this season because my mistweaver hates all of my guts.

[Litharium]

Yep. Weighing in all the responses now it's clear that this is the ONLY logical solution.

So because im a healer and everyone else runs healer dps. Im gonna have to wait about a hour to get 9 points seeing as every game goes to 15 minutes? K thanks bye that options not viable.

[theburned]

Why not just remove all scenery after 15 minutes...someone is bound to get a kill then

[banur]

I'm fine with it. Sick of pillar humping asshole unkillable healers who turtle after their dps dies. If they weren't good enough to keep their dps alive, they shouldn't force a tie.

But the team that can't 2v1 a healer should win?

Or just make it so that if there's 1 person left of your opponents team (these suggestions are for 2v2), you win. People will for sure just leave the game after they know for sure they lose. Heck, people are ALREADY doing that right now with the stupid buff.

I have had games where my partner sacrificed himself to allow a kill with the other at lower health. The 1v1 easily won.

[Verain]

There were 2 changes with the patch:

-The max game duration has been reduced to 15min
-At max game duration the buff kicks in.

Many people are extremely happy with the first one (I am too). Doesn't mean that the second change was a good change to make.

No, it needs to end in a win. The big deal is this: it becomes obvious after several minutes if you aren't going to win. This means you can quit early and take your loss. I don't see this happening much, but even when it doesn't we get a 15 minute game.


Another thing is this- if double dps is generally weak to healer/dps, and you are seeing more healer/dps now, that doesn't mean that healer/dps got buffed- it means that the punishing thing where they would get locked versus another healer/dps and no one gains points until 24 minutes in when someone overextends, or everyone draws which is a double loss, went away. And now you are seeing a more organic situation.


I started healing 2s again on my alt, and I'm actually having a good time, and it is 100% because of this buff. There were other ways to fix the problem, but this is an ok one. I wouldn't mind if they addressed the exploity things ofc. But if my team gets their team lower legit, then we get the buff and win. That feels way better than before, when if neither could score a kill OOPS double loss.


The reason I feel strongly about this is that it added back 2s for me. It was so awful before, and now it is a game again. They could solve the problem a bunch of ways, and if they remove this one I expect to see something similar. I hope.

Or I'll just not play 2s. It was a trashcan bracket for years.

[banur]

But if my team gets their team lower legit, then we get the buff and win. That feels way better than before, when if neither could score a kill OOPS double loss.

Because it should be a double loss if both parties are unable. Today you are not winning because you are good, but because you were able to drop the other team lower and get the buff.

[Tulkus]

Because it should be a double loss if both parties are unable. Today you are not winning because you are good, but because you were able to drop the other team lower and get the buff.

Yup. Unless both teams get a lose, the losing team is still going to turtle because a tie is better. Not as good as win, but still not as bad as a loss. Still affecting gameplay. The only way that gameplay will be uanffected is if it's a double loss.

[Verain]

Because it should be a double loss if both parties are unable. Today you are not winning because you are good, but because you were able to drop the other team lower and get the buff.

Clearly it's because "I'm good". The simple fact is, many 2s teams end up just unable to do anything to the other. It's highly comp dependent, and it affects all levels. If my team is able to get the other guy lower, that's at least a goal to shoot for, barring the ability to actually score a kill.

Ideally, the game wouldn't be balanced such that these stupid stalemates could occur. It was a lot rarer back in the day.


Here's a sample team that really happened:

I'm on my druid alt, Vitis. She's resto. My partner, Yvaette, is a warlock with a 470 weapon. Opposing us is a disc priest and a rogue, both of whom outgear me slightly and Yvaette a decent amount. We are simply unable to burst into either enemy enough to score a kill. Barring mana burns or very swingy burst, we just can't kill them. But neither can they kill us. Previously, this would become a stalemate where both teams sit around waiting forever. My other solution is to be more impatient and accept a loss. Instead, with the buff, we both have something to play for. We won that game, and it felt really good. It would have felt better if the game was balanced such that no such buff was needed. This same match under BC balance would NEVER have worked that way, even though we could literally have been the exact same comps. The priest would mana burn me whenever the rogue stunned me after they feared my lock. Likewise, I would spam CC into the rogue and try to hold the enemy healer still for drain mana. We would both be playing a very different game, and it WOULD end, because after a few minutes one of us would be OOM, victim to superior play. Right now, my superior play doesn't get me a kill.

And this is a solution to that. Keep in mind, this whole fight, neither one of us was in danger, while their team was constantly brought to near death, but they always had a cooldown. I went the whole game never using:

My bear form extra health button.
The warlock gateway.
My healthstone.

I used the following for CC and damage only:
Nature's Swiftness
Typhoon
Heart of the Wild

Before this buff, I was unwilling to play at all with my healer, and only grudgingly played on my main, and only for points. It was utterly without joy. Now, there's an actual game again. It's much much much better.


But, they are changing it. I hope they just fix the exploits.

[Spl4sh3r]

I only want to comment on the Healer point of view. Even though an Arena is about killing the other team. If you as a Healer survive against more than one DPS than you deserve the win even if you didn't kill them. Since that means you as a Healer can outheal the DPS of two or more players. Why shouldn't that be rewarded? Since your only job as a Healer is to stay alive and help support your team. Of course you are meant to kill the other team, but if you can't then your job is to survive!

[gestapo]

So because im a healer and everyone else runs healer dps. Im gonna have to wait about a hour to get 9 points seeing as every game goes to 15 minutes? K thanks bye that options not viable.

Your fault for playing healer/dps. Play double dps if you want faster games. Blizz already admitted their mistake in the current buff and they're going to eventually change it. TCCY in it's current form is broken. K thanks bye.

if no one losing rating when tie why would even try kill when healer/dps vs healer/dps or other comb that feels hard. Just play turtle and hope next time you get easier comb. 2 blood dk would be strong or even 2 healer. Play whit 2 priest and if you take enough games you are in 3k rating in 2v2.

Actually you're right. The old system was better. In the case of a tie, everyone loses points to discourage ties. However, TCCY remains and goes to the team that has more players alive. That way healers don't run around stalling a game if their partner dies (this seems to be a common complaint and justification for TCCY even it's current broken state).

I really like the buff. I like that after 15 minutes, the better team wins. I can play 2s again and enjoy them, because I no longer have to fight for 45 minutes at least once out of every seven games, ending with a draw (which is a loss).

I also enjoy this: If I'm in a game where I know that the crowd will choose the opponent team, I can leave. This has happened once. Mostly the game goes for 15 minutes and then I just one shot everyone which is super pleasing.

Better is subjective and very few people would agree with your sentiments. Many suggestions have been offered as better alternatives to the current. Current TCCY is broken and Blizzard is already looking for a way to change it.

I'm not saying the buff is without issue. If people are exploiting it with death knights, or stealth, or I don't care what, then the buff needs to not pick them. Why would the crowd choose blood death knights anyway? The crowd should recognize a deviant strategy and punish it. Walk in with double resto druids? No. Something like that.

I'd like that too. Seems like any time you get double healer or double tank teams the buff goes to the opposite team. If both teams are one of those two variants no one gets it. LOL. This is actually a great suggestion because Blizzard essentially ends up trolling the double healer and double tank teams. Unfortunately it's not likely to happen.

But it's much much much much much much better than before. 2s is back, and playable. Nothing was more demoralizing than logging on to play with a friend and getting in some eternal stalemate versus a team of derps that just can't die ever but can't get a kill either. Now one of us will be the clear winner. They can still troll us for a quarter of an hour, but no more, and after that, I get their points, instead of both of us losing.
MUCH better.

Highly subjective, of course. Once you run into enough teams that revolve their entire strategy around the buff your opinion may change. One of my guildies just started running double rogue because they can burst someone down and then avoid combat long enough for the buff to kick in. Even know a feral/rogue team doing it. Another friend started running double blood because he was tired of facing them and decided that until they fix it, might as well make everyone else sick of it.

I don't agree with that mentality, but you can see more people becoming fed up with it. It's just a matter of time until you have it happen to you (unless your comp is designed to exploit TCCY).

No, it needs to end in a win. The big deal is this: it becomes obvious after several minutes if you aren't going to win. This means you can quit early and take your loss. I don't see this happening much, but even when it doesn't we get a 15 minute game.

Vehemently disagree. Going to a lower health doesn't mean that team deserves to lose. A kill is a kill in the end, nothing else should determine a win. Teams have come back from being near death to secure victory. You're actually punishing teams for trying.

Another thing is this- if double dps is generally weak to healer/dps, and you are seeing more healer/dps now, that doesn't mean that healer/dps got buffed- it means that the punishing thing where they would get locked versus another healer/dps and no one gains points until 24 minutes in when someone overextends, or everyone draws which is a double loss, went away. And now you are seeing a more organic situation.

Well, it has more to do with the resilience buff (a good thing). Healers are more durable so double dps suffers.

I started healing 2s again on my alt, and I'm actually having a good time, and it is 100% because of this buff. There were other ways to fix the problem, but this is an ok one. I wouldn't mind if they addressed the exploity things ofc. But if my team gets their team lower legit, then we get the buff and win. That feels way better than before, when if neither could score a kill OOPS double loss.

Exactly. This is why current TCCY needs to change. Old system was better. This is an unacceptable way to fix a problem in that they made it worse.

The reason I feel strongly about this is that it added back 2s for me. It was so awful before, and now it is a game again. They could solve the problem a bunch of ways, and if they remove this one I expect to see something similar. I hope.

Or I'll just not play 2s. It was a trashcan bracket for years.

Most people are hoping they remove it and if you stop doing 2s as a result i think you're in the minority. I believe you're also in the minority in liking this buff.

Clearly it's because "I'm good". The simple fact is, many 2s teams end up just unable to do anything to the other. It's highly comp dependent, and it affects all levels. If my team is able to get the other guy lower, that's at least a goal to shoot for, barring the ability to actually score a kill.

No, you're not good. It is highly comp dependent, but if you think you're better for getting someone to lower hp you're mistaken.

But, they are changing it. I hope they just fix the exploits.

They'll change how it works. Much needed.

[Deleted]

Fix the buff if it is being exploited, but please, keep it. This game is playable for the first goddamned time in years in 2s.

Are you kidding me? The game is not "playable" right now, most people now outright refuse to do 2s. I know people who are fairly high rated who rather run 5s or random Battlegrounds for cap in advance of their normal games in 3s now because they refuse to suffer through 2s.

The buff has lead to several dual blood DKs being high rated in the European 2s Ladder, it has lead to a great many teams of warrior + x healer rushing in at the beginning to try and bring someone as low as possible and then running away for 15 minutes straight with warrior pretty much being the by far most met dps around, it has lead to people socketing stamina gems and the likes.

TCCY was the worst thing to happen and it ruined 2s which was only for cap and fun before and now is only frustrating and annoying and if you had a look on the official forums you'd see that most people not running cheesy comps agree on that. Hell even your rant about healers, who are weaker than ever before in the history of WoW aside from the first 4.0 before a lot of hotfixes landed alone invalidates your opinion already.

I don't agree with that mentality, but you can see more people becoming fed up with it. It's just a matter of time until you have it happen to you (unless your comp is designed to exploit TCCY).

After reading his post I'm almost certain that this is the case. He's running a comp profiting from TCCY and thus would like to keep it around since it benefits him and makes him think he's "good".

[apepi]

Are you kidding me? The game is not "playable" right now, most people now outright refuse to do 2s. I know people who are fairly high rated who rather run 5s or random Battlegrounds for cap in advance of their normal games in 3s now because they refuse to suffer through 2s.

The buff has lead to several dual blood DKs being high rated in the European 2s Ladder, it has lead to a great many teams of warrior + x healer rushing in at the beginning to try and bring someone as low as possible and then running away for 15 minutes straight with warrior pretty much being the by far most met dps around, it has lead to people socketing stamina gems and the likes.

TCCY was the worst thing to happen and it ruined 2s which was only for cap and fun before and now is only frustrating and annoying and if you had a look on the official forums you'd see that most people not running cheesy comps agree on that. Hell even your rant about healers, who are weaker than ever before in the history of WoW aside from the first 4.0 before a lot of hotfixes landed alone invalidates your opinion already.


After reading his post I'm almost certain that this is the case. He's running a comp profiting from TCCY and thus would like to keep it around since it benefits him and makes him think he's "good".

I think you are over-exaggerating how bad 2s are. Tank comp are not a problem for me and I am at 2k(us). I have beat every tank I have seen in arena(rare that I see them though). My comp counters most heal+dps teams and tank comps because our damage is so strong.

I have won because of the tccy many more times than I have lost, I have been using an addon telling me who has gotten the lowest. This does not mean I am happy with the buff though, I think blizzard should make it be based on % ad leave it there for a little bit to see how much things change.

[Verain]

After reading his post I'm almost certain that this is the case. He's running a comp profiting from TCCY and thus would like to keep it around since it benefits him and makes him think he's "good".

Gimme a break. I was running my alt resto druid with an alt lock. Is that some cheese thing? That's a been a respected 2s comp since arena was invented. It's not some stall comp.


I don't think "most people" are opposed to this. I think plenty of people started ignoring 2s when they balanced healers to be way too strong in 2s (because they balanced them for, for instance, 3s). This lead to a setup where the only way to score a kill as double dps is ludicrous burst or a mile long CC chain, whereas there used to be a lot more.



I see a lot of complaints about double blood, and I hear some people say that double rogue and hide is a thing. These could be fixed without removing the buff.

I really really like that there is another way to win, because those endless games are just ludicrous. 2s was a bracket I used to just use to cap- I'm actually enjoying games now, for the first time in years. Fix the exploits, keep the buff.

[Deleted]

I think you are over-exaggerating how bad 2s are. Tank comp are not a problem for me and I am at 2k(us). I have beat every tank I have seen in arena(rare that I see them though). My comp counters most heal+dps teams and tank comps because our damage is so strong.

I have won because of the tccy many more times than I have lost, I have been using an addon telling me who has gotten the lowest. This does not mean I am happy with the buff though, I think blizzard should make it be based on % ad leave it there for a little bit to see how much things change.

Yes it is that bad. On EU you meet 90% Warrior + Healer who are playing exactly like that and in the top rankings there's several doule blood dks with the exact same rating. It's tuesday which means reset day for us and even on my twink with only 1800 mmr the waiting time is 5 minutes 5+ to meet comps like I mentioned before.
People are actively avoiding 2s and it's dying around here, pretty fast considering that merging the entire EU should've decreased waiting times and not increased them by 4-5 minutes from where they were before. Also take into account that the European PvP community is more active and far more fierce than the US one.

Gimme a break. I was running my alt resto druid with an alt lock. Is that some cheese thing? That's a been a respected 2s comp since arena was invented. It's not some stall comp.

Yes it is. It's exactly one of those spread dots and then run around pillars for 15 minute comps while spamming lots of CC. You are directly profiting from this and not caring about this wrecking 2s in general as it's good for you.

I don't think "most people" are opposed to this. I think plenty of people started ignoring 2s when they balanced healers to be way too strong in 2s (because they balanced them for, for instance, 3s). This lead to a setup where the only way to score a kill as double dps is ludicrous burst or a mile long CC chain, whereas there used to be a lot more.

1. 522 weapons are now available to anyone, the damage increase for meles is insane and healers are dying left and right. Healers are weaker than ever before in the history of WoW aside from Cataclysm 5.0 before hotfixes.
2. About nobody, nobody on the EU forums is happy with TCCY, people ingame are refusing to do 2s for cap/fun at this point, the waiting times have skyrocketed and Blizzard themselves admitted they messed up with TCCY big time. Go figure.

I see a lot of complaints about double blood, and I hear some people say that double rogue and hide is a thing. These could be fixed without removing the buff.

I really really like that there is another way to win, because those endless games are just ludicrous. 2s was a bracket I used to just use to cap- I'm actually enjoying games now, for the first time in years. Fix the exploits, keep the buff.

Dude you're actively gunning for the buff, which means your games are 15 minutes at the very least. You are spreading your dots as affliction team or trying to get someone low as resto+destruction and then pillar humping for 15 minutes thinking you suddenly became a skillful player. It's not, all it is is supremely annoying and awarding the win to a cheesy combo who doesn't deserve it because you have a higher HP pool to begin with.

[Verain]

Dude you're actively gunning for the buff, which means your games are 15 minutes at the very least. You are spreading your dots as affliction team or trying to get someone low as resto+destruction and then pillar humping for 15 minutes thinking you suddenly became a skillful player. It's not, all it is is supremely annoying and awarding the win to a cheesy combo who doesn't deserve it because you have a higher HP pool to begin with.

I'm a very skillful player and I know that part. Feel free to believe as you choose: the world is full of people wrong about shit, after all, you can join their wrong-party.

lock/druid isn't "pillar humping for 15 minutes". Here's how this plays out:

Versus double dps: Win or Loss. Actual fucking game though.
Versus healer/dps: The game starts and we try to out-CC each other, and burst for a kill. Sometimes, this ends like above: win or loss. Fine.
BUT OTHER FUCKING GAMES WILL GO FOREVER

Neither team can hurt the other. This can happen several ways, but it happens a hell of a lot. When it happens, without the crowd choosing me, I end up sitting until a draw. Then I just log the fuck off, because that's not a game and fuck that anyway. But with that buff, I'm in the game. Now they care, because they can't just fucking turtle.

Don't you get it? The buff ends turtles. Just because the enemy team was born with dot-wipes doesn't mean we should play 45 minutes, gain 0 conquest, and both drop 15 points.

Yes, there are exploits. I'm not one of them, but go ahead and think whatever wrongheaded bullshit lubricates your serotonin sensors. Playing a healer/dps and being told that I'm gaming for having "higher base health" is flat out insulting and wrong. You can fix the exploits and keep the buff. And I hope Blizzard does that.

[Deleted]

And here we see a fairly low rated player who with a cheesy comp finally manages to get an average rating and now is trying to sell us the TCCY which has wrecked 2s and is unfun to anyone not playing a team gunning for the TCCY after 15 minutes thinks it's a great addition to the game and that he's the only one being right with everyone else being wrong.

Honesty you're not even worth replying to. Saying that the buff would end turtles when the exact opposite is happening is just plain wrong. Add to that that 45 Minutes wasn't the time limit anymore for a long time already and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.