Haste value between soft caps? [Affliction]

[Expat]

What is the value of Haste between the softcaps?

For example if you are over 9778 haste but cant reach 13157 does haste become less significantly less valuable?

Should I get to 9778 then go mastery?

I ask because I was trying to reforge / gem etc using Ask Mr Robot and it recommended I get 12350 haste which is in the middle of nowhere.

Wow Armory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...s/Expat/simple

Ask Mr Robot:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/8...5-17aab9cf0b67

[Baconeggcheese]

Pretty much exactly the same, people get obsessed with plateau's for no reason since pandemic makes them extremely irrelevant.

If you wanna see this sim yourself just below a haste plateau and then at the plateau, there's almost no difference in dps.

[Expat]

Yeah I just finished reading an article about how haste caps actually work and I can see that your right it probably makes no real world difference.

Cheers.

[Deleted]

Yeah I just finished reading an article about how haste caps actually work and I can see that your right it probably makes no real world difference.

Cheers.

It makes no significant simcraft difference, in real world multidotting it means the world in QOL and malefic grasp uptime. If you're not obsessing over it, you ought to start doing so.

[Deleted]

Pretty much exactly the same, people get obsessed with plateau's for no reason since pandemic makes them extremely irrelevant.

If you wanna see this sim yourself just below a haste plateau and then at the plateau, there's almost no difference in dps.

A little difference is still a difference. Being just over a treshold spares you quite some gcd's over the course of a fight, even with Pandemic. Calling them irrelevant is ignorant. People realizing this aren't obsessed, they're just trying to get the most out of their gear.

[KaiHuolo]

i know they say go fo 9778 BP but can someone give me a ballpark of a bad mastery level when trying to reach the next BP?

[Deleted]

It makes no significant simcraft difference, in real world multidotting it means the world in QOL and malefic grasp uptime. If you're not obsessing over it, you ought to start doing so.

what ppl also forget is that while haste alone "only" makes the dots tick faster where as the break points actually increases each individual dot's dmg by adding that extra tick within its duration, basically increasing your dmg from UA by about 14%, corr by 11% and agony by around 9-10% for each break point you reach due to the extra ticks you get, and that is in addition to the haste you got to reach the break point, so haste in a sense scales with itself when you reach those BPs for your dots, hopefully i making sense, its late and im tired lol.

[Woz]

Pretty much exactly the same, people get obsessed with plateau's for no reason since pandemic makes them extremely irrelevant.

If you wanna see this sim yourself just below a haste plateau and then at the plateau, there's almost no difference in dps.

That's really not true. While it holds some merit whatever small difference you see is because haste and mastery single target are very close with haste edging out. The haste plateaus become more 'irrelevant' when you talk about multidotting. While - yes there is not really a large huff about plateaus anymore because of pandemic, it is still relevant for everyday single target DPS.

[Deleted]

Nice, this thread is almost exactly what I was looking for.
If OP doesn't mind I'd like to join him and post more details to help this discussion.



This is the sim for my 557 WL (affli). I've been trying to hit the 9778 BP, but couldn't because I had some "bad luck" with my loot (lots of haste items). So now, if I'm completely reforged into mastery, I'm almost at the 13157 BP for agony, so I reforged a little mastery into haste to hit it.
Now I'm at exactly 13167 (+10 over the cap). How come that haste is still this strong in my sim? I mean it literally crushes mastery. Is SimC buggy?

[Deleted]

Nice, this thread is almost exactly what I was looking for.
If OP doesn't mind I'd like to join him and post more details to help this discussion.



This is the sim for my 557 WL (affli). I've been trying to hit the 9778 BP, but couldn't because I had some "bad luck" with my loot (lots of haste items). So now, if I'm completely reforged into mastery, I'm almost at the 13157 BP for agony, so I reforged a little mastery into haste to hit it.
Now I'm at exactly 13167 (+10 over the cap). How come that haste is still this strong in my sim? I mean it literally crushes mastery. Is SimC buggy?

The next Breakpoint for Corruption is at 13737, which is not too far ahead.

I stopped simming scaling-factors for my warlock and instead do reforgeplots of haste vs mastery.
If you do the plot for something like 1500 to 2000 haste/mastery, you will notice the impacts of the breakpoints (a few thousand dps each) and the quite non-existant influence afterwards (few hundred dps over a wide range of stats) which is still in favor of haste single target but is so small that I take mastery over haste after the breakpoints so my potential destruction-reforge performs better.

[Deleted]

The next Breakpoint for Corruption is at 13737, which is not too far ahead.

I stopped simming scaling-factors for my warlock and instead do reforgeplots of haste vs mastery.
If you do the plot for something like 1500 to 2000 haste/mastery, you will notice the impacts of the breakpoints (a few thousand dps each) and the quite non-existant influence afterwards (few hundred dps over a wide range of stats) which is still in favor of haste single target but is so small that I take mastery over haste after the breakpoints so my potential destruction-reforge performs better.

This is what Reforge Plots tells me. I've done it before, but to be sure I did it again a couple of minutes ago.
Earlier in 5.2 and 5.3 the haste breakpoints were pretty obvious to spot, because reforging into haste would result into a dps loss, unless you reforge exactly to your haste BP.
But this graph looks totally different. If I reforge into haste now it will be a dps increase no matter what. And if I reforge to a haste BP my dps increases even more.
So by this logic haste would be the strongest stat by far and the best dps gain would be to reforge everything I have into haste and go for the highest possible haste BP and reforge the small left over into mastery.
Dafuq is going on?

- - - Updated - - -



And these are the reforge plots with a max amount of 5000. I also marked the recommended 9778 BP for you in this graph. As you can see reforging to it would result in a significant dps loss of 5500-6600dps.


For me, there are only 2 options to choose from:

1. SimC is buggy / not up to date
2. The community is wrong => haste>mastery

[Deleted]

Push for new information!

[Shauni]

As for me I stopped trying to limit my haste to the 9778 BP. It makes no sense and that the more I try to get close to it (without, of course, reforging to crit) the less I DPS in game AND in simcraft.

So now, I use askmrrobot default values, then plays with it (cuz sometimes it makes me sacrifice hit for...crit), pug myself into simcraft with reforge plot mastery <-> haste and see the results.

So now, I'm proudly standing with haste >= mastery, both close to each other, and I'm perfectly fine topping my guild charts (oh, and hunt needs to be nerfed. I hate them)

So I would say, if you could attain a BP with little to no sacrifice to your mastery (not going below 10k) go for it. If you can't, balance the two without really thinking of breakpoint. They are not what they used to be.

[Deleted]

As for me I stopped trying to limit my haste to the 9778 BP. It makes no sense and that the more I try to get close to it (without, of course, reforging to crit) the less I DPS in game AND in simcraft.

So now, I use askmrrobot default values, then plays with it (cuz sometimes it makes me sacrifice hit for...crit), pug myself into simcraft with reforge plot mastery <-> haste and see the results.

So now, I'm proudly standing with haste >= mastery, both close to each other, and I'm perfectly fine topping my guild charts (oh, and hunt needs to be nerfed. I hate them)

So I would say, if you could attain a BP with little to no sacrifice to your mastery (not going below 10k) go for it. If you can't, balance the two without really thinking of breakpoint. They are not what they used to be.

I'm plotting the two stats for a 1, 2 and 3-target fight to get a sense of how they interact with each other and when one value becomes stronger than the other one so I can balance them for myself.
But I agree with you, as long it's not a huge sacrifice to mastery, you can/should aim for a BP, since haste becomes significantly stronger than mastery around that specific area.

[NeverStop]

Maybe Evrelia can chime in?

[Shauni]

Let him sleep, he'll be back when his progress is over.

[Invection]

Far as im aware if ur looking to do single target u take 13737 haste BP, if ur gonna be doing alot of multi dotting u go mastery after 9778

[Bonkura]

Pretty much exactly the same, people get obsessed with plateau's for no reason since pandemic makes them extremely irrelevant.

If you wanna see this sim yourself just below a haste plateau and then at the plateau, there's almost no difference in dps.

You're good at spreading false information...

Let's say if you get 13 ticks from a dot and refresh it with 3 ticks left, then you still got 13 ticks when you're down to those 3 old ticks again. So if you go for the 14th tick in this case you'll still get that extra tick even with Pandemic. If you think that's extremely irrelevant you're simply wrong.

What haste does outside of haste plateaus is make the dots tick faster. Because of this we still want to get more haste even if we can't reach any extra ticks. However mastery will scale much better after that extra tick so you would want to go for that before you get more haste. Because of this it's normal to be between haste plateaus because we don't want to invest into crit rating.


The only reason you would want to ignore haste plateaus (besides the fact that we want to maintain mastery it scales synergistically with haste) would actually be multidotting. For example, if we ignore pandemic and just look at a fresh set of dots that we put up on a target, there's a chance the target will die before the dots expires and that means we won't get all ticks. That's why people usually say that mastery is worth more than haste in multitarget situations.

[Baconeggcheese]

Push for new information!

I pretty much don't bother with early simcraft as it usually takes months and the tier is usually over before they figure out what people have been napkin mathing for a while. Its been humorous this tier seeing my guildies start out saying what this or that upgrade is worth based on simcraft and now how its changing every other day as simcraft is being corrected.

Simcraft over-values haste ever since rppm came into place, the bindings trinket made this worse. Honestly the two stats are so close to each other in dps value you can have exaggerated amounts of either or and still see dps within a similar margin of error. For instance the entirety of the SoO PTR I was running the 9778 bp and my guildy was running the 13737 bp as I prefer mastery and he prefers haste, and on basically every fight the person who did more dmg was the person who got better / more procs on a given pull.

[Cardio32]

The answer to everyone's question: haste vs mastery, is a lot more simple than people are making it out to be.

Simcrafts - They are primarily looking at single target rotations. We refresh dots constantly (when trinkets proc, dark soul, lust etc etc) and channel (MG or drain soul) like hell. The haste breakpoints mean less and mastery does not affect MG or Drain soul. This is why on a single target tank and spank haste will always out-weight mastery, but it benefits all of our abilities. Also, if you look at haste breakpoints in certain situations with +haste effects (where the REAL damage starts) there are tons of "minor" break points that most people don't pay attention to. Look at an example of dark soul + legendary meta proc:

Where mastery really shines is in multi-targetting dotting situations (Protectors is perfect example). People wait for trinket procs and stack CDs then spread dots across all of the adds. This is where you want to be AT the haste breakpoints and max mastery, to get the most out of every dot before it expires.

- - - Updated - - -

Simcraft over-values haste ever since rppm came into place, the bindings trinket made this worse. Honestly the two stats are so close to each other in dps value you can have exaggerated amounts of either or and still see dps within a similar margin of error. For instance the entirety of the SoO PTR I was running the 9778 bp and my guildy was running the 13737 bp as I prefer mastery and he prefers haste, and on basically every fight the person who did more dmg was the person who got better / more procs on a given pull.

Procs make a big difference, also random fight mechanics. Did you pay close attention to how you guys did vs certain boss encounters? I would assume he most likely beat you in single target encounters and you beat him in multi target like Protectors.