Is Garrosh Hellscream the most difficult raid boss in WoW history?

[Haywire5714]

Lei Shen took well into the 500's for the first kills, and Ragnaros was right about the same.

Lei Shen took around 330 pulls for Paragon, 310 for Method and Ragnaros took 500.

[Krekko]

Lei Shen took around 330 pulls for Paragon, 310 for Method and Ragnaros took 500.

I remember guilds releasing statements on how Ragnaros was.

The time spent on any major end raid boss is incredible.

[Deleted]

That list is irrelevant, both time spent raiding and player skill have increased tremendously. Also, that list includes bosses in gated raids.

This isnt truth at all actualy. Players skill is this days much lower then it was back in Vanilla/TBC thanks to LFR and other casual ****. Almost nobady want improve their gameplay this days.

[Tehterokkar]

This isnt truth at all actualy. Players skill is this days much lower then it was back in Vanilla/TBC thanks to LFR and other casual ****. Almost nobady want improve their gameplay this days.

Might be true for your LFR heroes... But Heroic raiders are way more skilled than in Vanilla/TBC. Don't compare Apples to Peaches when looking at player skill. There were many retards that were at the same level as the current "LFR Heroes". If you straight up compare TBC top raiding guilds(Ones that entered a raid during the patch when it was released and killed a few bosses) to current Normal/1-2 boss Heroic mode guilds, it's a whole another world.

Especially since we've moved away from 1-2-3 rotations(BM Hunter and Warlocks had 1 ability spam rotation even) and now you have to do much more complex and thoughtful rotations WHILE making sure you execute a strategy for a boss. Do you even realize how easy bosses would be if I logged on my Hunter and literally spammed Cobra shot until the boss died? Would require no skill, no thought, I could focus on the boss fight way way way more.

[Memory]

Incredibly bad class design and stat distribution on armour, buggy as hell bosses, and the average heroic raider today was about as skilled as the very best players in the world back then.

I really DON'T understand how can so many people bring this up as an argument about the supposed simplicity of vanilla / BC bosses.
You have to consider the difficulty of a boss within the game features of that time: if one - say - could not get hit capped or classes had less tools, it doesn't make vanilla/BC raids any easier just on the thought that it would be easier if there was better itemization. There wasn't. That was the gear and those were the classes. Bosses were tuned for those classes and gear, people were wearing that gear and playing those classes. So that was the actual difficulty.
It's really depressing that one can make such enormously flawed arguments. Every thread about difficulty comparison is full of this very same crap.

[Akylios]

Might be true for your LFR heroes... But Heroic raiders are way more skilled than in Vanilla/TBC. Don't compare Apples to Peaches when looking at player skill. There were many retards that were at the same level as the current "LFR Heroes". If you straight up compare TBC top raiding guilds(Ones that entered a raid during the patch when it was released and killed a few bosses) to current Normal/1-2 boss Heroic mode guilds, it's a whole another world.

I didn't raid or even play World of Warcraft for 6 years straight, and neither did my guild. We're a bunch of 40 year old farts who entered MOP with nothing but whatever raiding skills we picked up in Classic.

We killed most normal mode bosses in 1-3 tries and as far as Tier 14 goes, we didn't even use boss mods for the normal modes. From our perspective, most normal modes are at best Molten Core level of difficulty, in spite of their numerous mechanics. The mechanics are just incredibly basic and incredibly forgiving on normal mode.

As far as Heroic modes goes, most of those we did were very easy to us and went down in a single raid night or less. Some even went down in 5 tries or less (most of MSV HC). Only a handful of bosses seem to be challenging and even fewer seem to be genuinely hard.

Raiding today seems to be about as hard as it was back in the day. The only thing that has changed is how the challenges are presented. Today is more fun. The mechanics add fun. Bugfree encounters are fun.

[Hulkovius]

Most ppl seem to refer to 25 man history but I like to point out that Paragon spent close to 640 tries to get Garrosh HC. He is by far the hardest boss so far according to the amount of wipes. Its a major dpscheck and to meet those requirements they went with 1 healer and perfected it. They will probably be the only guild ever along with china that kills it with 1 healer, this shows how well they play.( In b4 ppl outgear it and go 1 man heal derp. )

In this very Moment we have spent more tries on Garrosh HC than we did to kill Lei Shen HC and afaik we havent killed Garrosh Yet. With some more Ilvl upgrades he is dead within days from now tho I hope.

[Ahdehl]

People shouldn't confuse gearchecks/encounters being overtuned with actual difficult mechanics.

[chrisisvacant]

Might be true for your LFR heroes... But Heroic raiders are way more skilled than in Vanilla/TBC. Don't compare Apples to Peaches when looking at player skill. There were many retards that were at the same level as the current "LFR Heroes". If you straight up compare TBC top raiding guilds(Ones that entered a raid during the patch when it was released and killed a few bosses) to current Normal/1-2 boss Heroic mode guilds, it's a whole another world.

Especially since we've moved away from 1-2-3 rotations(BM Hunter and Warlocks had 1 ability spam rotation even) and now you have to do much more complex and thoughtful rotations WHILE making sure you execute a strategy for a boss. Do you even realize how easy bosses would be if I logged on my Hunter and literally spammed Cobra shot until the boss died? Would require no skill, no thought, I could focus on the boss fight way way way more.

No, raiders are no more skilled today than ever. The game has changed and, thus, strategies and rotations change. But, by and large, the same predictable difficulty levels are still around today like they were in Vanilla.

Just because you can go back and solo these bosses now doesn't mean they were easy at the time. I assure you, as someone who raided during every single expansion and vanilla, the bosses have always been increasingly more difficult each tier in a predictable manner. This still exists today.

Whoever above was mocking M'uru's difficulty has absolutely no clue what they're talking about. Think of it like inflation. What is $5 today was more like $25 30 years ago. Same with WoW expansion difficulty level.

[Toxigen]

Whoever above was mocking M'uru's difficulty has absolutely no clue what they're talking about. Think of it like inflation. What is $5 today was more like $25 30 years ago. Same with WoW expansion difficulty level.

People are quit to write-off / discount M'uru as a simple "overtuned" and "easy as shit mechanics" fight.

Odds are they simply weren't there for 1.0 and 1.1 progression.

Still one of the most glorious fights to this day, requiring perfect execution and finding every last crumb of DPS to get through. Players that only killed it after the sweeping HP nerfs (version 1.2) were cheated out of a truly demanding fight (rare for Vanilla / BC era) as the nerf trivialized the fight (and really, the entire instance).

They didn't call it the Guild Destroyer for nothing...probably caused the break up of more raiding guilds than any other boss to date.

[catablitz]

They didn't call it the Guild Destroyer for nothing...probably caused the break up of more raiding guilds than any other boss to date.

Absolutely true. As far as I remember second place goes to Ka'el Thas

[spoon77]

People are quit to write-off / discount M'uru as a simple "overtuned" and "easy as shit mechanics" fight.

Odds are they simply weren't there for 1.0 and 1.1 progression.

Still one of the most glorious fights to this day, requiring perfect execution and finding every last crumb of DPS to get through. Players that only killed it after the sweeping HP nerfs (version 1.2) were cheated out of a truly demanding fight (rare for Vanilla / BC era) as the nerf trivialized the fight (and really, the entire instance).

They didn't call it the Guild Destroyer for nothing...probably caused the break up of more raiding guilds than any other boss to date.

Exactly! Hard doesn’t mean which boss has the most creative mechanics. I’m just going to put it out there that mechanics are gimmicky; talented players figure them out really quickly and overcome them. That’s what sets the leading guilds apart from the average. Tuning is the real difference: it can make even the simplest fight test the best of players.

M’uru wasn’t even the most creative boss in Sunwell in terms of mechanics, but he single handidly destroyed more progression guilds than any other boss in WoW history. Why? Because the tuning was absolutely brutal and left no room for mistakes, lag or even indecision.

One of the guilds which got US top 10 kills on Kalecgos and Brutallis and US top 20 on Felmyst took almost two months to kill M’uru.

Anyone who scoffs at how hard M’uru actually was is either from the original 5 ultra-elite guilds who downed the 1.0 version, from Drow, who had that amazing AoE strat that everyone else tried but couldn’t replicate, or simply didn’t raid Sunwell pre-3.0. Everyone else struggled with him, and most struggled for weeks and weeks.

[Dangg]

Kil'Jaeden was harder than M'uru before KJ aggro got hotfixed and more likely to cause trouble on farm.

[Toxigen]

Kil'Jaeden was harder than M'uru before KJ aggro got hotfixed and more likely to cause trouble on farm.

Oh really?

M'uru took us over 300 wipes.

We got KJ in about 40 pulls.

Similar experiences shared with other top 100 guilds at the time.

[Yukz]

People overrate the word difficult. They think fights that take a long time all belong in that category. Some fights just require a gear check. Hard is Yogg 0 where even people with gear couldn't get it down. It had many different ridiculous abilities. Skill level has increased too.

- - - Updated - - -

Pacteh is clearly delusional. Heroic Garrosh took somewhere around 270 attempts for them to kill, I think Blood Legion said it was similar. Lei Shen took well into the 500's for the first kills, and Ragnaros was right about the same. Garrosh cannot be compared to Raggnaros OR Lich King, because Garrosh simply isn't that mechanically complicated of a boss. You skip an entire intermission on heroic, and Enrage isn't even remotely close to an issue (kills range in the 15 minute timeframe, with a boss enrage of 18 minutes).

You let me know how a boss that took roughly half the attempts of Heroic Ragnaros, Heroic Lich King, or Heroic Lei Shen is a "harder" boss than those before it.

Pacteh likes to talk a lot of smack, so of course the one time they get a final boss overall first (without Paragon beating them to it) he is going to act like it's the hardest thing ever and they did nothing short of a miracle to kill it. Read the ManaFlask article, Pacteh talks about how amazing Garrosh was and how it's the number 1 fight of all time, and the other guildies didn't rank it anywhere near as high as he did.

It's also worth noting that they wiped for HOURS on Blackfuse the night before and same day as their repeat Heroic Garrosh kill. They 2 shot Heroic Garrosh, not counting the ninja pull insta-wipe they did shortly after the Thrall RP. It would have been a one shot had the rogue they had kiting an Iron Star not been picked for Malice. Blackfuse is a mechanically harder boss than Garrosh. Paragons is more of a gear check and a "figure out the right kill order" boss, and Garrosh was a gear check. An end boss deserves to be more than just a "have enough gear to skip an entire portion of the fight", and a heroic-only phase should have more than 2 easily controllable mechanics.

More pulls went into Blackfuse and Paragons than Garrosh. Think about that.

I agree with everything you just said.

[Meto]

Everybody notes that player skill has increased yet I do not believe that at all. I believe that playing your class with more efficiency has simply become easier, I know for a fact that I haven't drastically changed my playing style since BC, which leads me to believe that most people that have played since vanilla haven;t changed their playing styles tremendously either. This leads into my thinking of skill remaining the same, the raids have become easier simply because each class has so many tools now. The mechanics are more complex to make up for the abilities given to each class with each expansion. The difficulty is not increasing, vanilla was simply harder because gear hurdle was there to float bad players, without the gear you didn't have enough decent players to complete a encounter. You also had to coordinate many more people, which wasn't easy at all (early days seem comparable to a bad LFR).

[xiic]

over 600 pulls on 10 H Garrosh is no laughing matter.

[Plarock]

over 600 pulls on 10 H Garrosh is no laughing matter.

Just further proves that 10 and 25 equal balancing will never exist, and people need to really start treating them as two separate entities.

[Dangg]

Oh really?

M'uru took us over 300 wipes.

We got KJ in about 40 pulls.

Similar experiences shared with other top 100 guilds at the time.

Name of your guild? Sounds like a fraud.
http://web.archive.org/web/200809130...utsu.com/world
Sunwell Plateau
3.47%
Kalecgos
3.40%
Brutallus
2.25%
Felmyst
1.54%
Eredar Twins
1.20%
M'uru
0.50%
Kil'jaeden
0.21%

Surely more than 50% of the guild that wiped (and than killed) 300 times on muru would have invested the time for 40 KJ pulls in a few months.

[spoon77]

One thing to take into account with those numbers are repeat M'uru kills. For example, the only other guild on our server that killed M'uru didn't kill KJ -- they had problems with repeat kills in the subsequent weeks after the first kill, killing him only two further times. People quit and that guild stopped progression until the massive nerfs in 3.0. In a month they probably only spent three or four nights on KJ in total.

That was why he was such a guild killer -- aside from being ultra-tightly tuned the fight was incredibly monotonous, so people burned out on him.