1. #2521
    Fury starved. That's all I have to say about Demo. Numbers are decent but not being able to actually dump MC procs with big buffs or even worse having to sacrifice fury to refresh Corruption in Metamorphosis (are you guy still doing that 100%??) makes the spec clunkier than ever. Other than that the damage is fine and I wasn't that far behind our Destro Lock on fights like Iron Juggernaut and Sha of Pride but going back to Affliction turned the table completely.

    IMO this is worse than T14. At least we had the Wild Imps glyph back then. The spec needs a Fury genereation hotfix Destro style asap.

  2. #2522
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    IMO this is worse than T14. At least we had the Wild Imps glyph back then. The spec needs a Fury genereation hotfix Destro style asap.

    I've heard rumors of more Fury generation nerfs incoming. I'm not sure what's going on, but Demonology is on someone's shit list.

    That said, the spec wasn't nearly as bad as people act like it was in T14. No one of any real mention played it, but the few people who did play it made it work to great success. The play style is different, but once the proper adjustments are made it's still viable.

  3. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Using AD that way means giving up Service for Supremacy, I think that kind of defeats the object of timing and focusing your damage. I tend to use the bonus charge to get cover over more or less the full duration of Heroism, whenever that's timed for the encounter, because that tends to be when it matters most.
    Why would you give up service for supremacy? You should always be using Service if you wanna play demo. Also, if you're able to use your bonus AD charge during heroism would suggest that you might not be using your meta DS properly. If you go into heroism with 1000fury with heroism, dumping all your fury into Meta DS with Soulfires should almost leave you exhausted by the time you're out of it. The best way of using your extra charge should be planning your mini burn phase in between your major burn phase with purified proc. This can be paired with Cloak procs ( if you're tailoring ) and abit of luck trying to pray for other procs to line up together depending on what trinkets you use. However, you dont really want to plan your 2nd AD charge near your major burn phase because you really want to go into your major burn phase with at least 800fury for you to maximise the major burn phase with soulfire spam. That being said, although alot of guides do mention that the extra AD charge gives u alot of room to time and plan your bursts, the requirement to have high fury before your major burn phase restricts the timing of your 2nd AD charge because of the lack of fury. Imho, the nerf to UVLS just gimps our spec in relation to our fury gains.
    Last edited by Xephyria; 2013-10-17 at 07:56 AM.

  4. #2524
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    Why would you give up service for supremacy? You should always be using Service if you wanna play demo. Also, if you're able to use your bonus AD charge during heroism would suggest that you might not be using your meta DS properly. If you go into heroism with 1000fury with heroism, dumping all your fury into Meta DS with Soulfires should almost leave you exhausted by the time you're out of it. The best way of using your extra charge should be planning your mini burn phase in between your major burn phase with purified proc. This can be paired with Cloak procs ( if you're tailoring ) and abit of luck trying to pray for other procs to line up together depending on what trinkets you use. However, you dont really want to plan your 2nd AD charge near your major burn phase because you really want to go into your major burn phase with at least 800fury for you to maximise the major burn phase with soulfire spam. That being said, although alot of guides do mention that the extra AD charge gives u alot of room to time and plan your bursts, the requirement to have high fury before your major burn phase restricts the timing of your 2nd AD charge because of the lack of fury. Imho, the nerf to UVLS just gimps our spec in relation to our fury gains.
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.

  5. #2525
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.
    why would u not line up service with dark soul?

  6. #2526
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're not lining up Service with Dark Soul, then Service won't be good enough to beat Supremacy. That basically means Dark Soul is getting used no differently than it would be without AD, and therefore AD is simply giving you an extra DS to use at your discretion.
    I ran a Sim commenting out the DS line in my gear to see how true this was, and it turns out it isn't. GoSup with no DS came out at 319235 compared to 319200 with GoServ. I would imagine just lining up one would make GoServ better. That said you should know how long a fight is going to last, and how much leeway you have to push back your cooldowns before you lose a use. The only DS I really think is mobile is the extra AD DS anyways, which doesn't have a GoServ use to go with it anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by lichanator View Post
    Zin, I see you went the 14.9k haste shadowflame breakpoint, how did that feel and numbers wise?
    I think that I like it, however I have an absolute shit ton of haste on my gear so reaching it was very simple.

  7. #2527
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    why would u not line up service with dark soul?
    Exactly my point.

    You get one free movable charge. And why use that charge during a burn phase? Because it's a burn phase. Further, after Meta/DS are over, and Hero is still up, you'll generate Fury pretty quickly too, to get back into Meta and use DS again; similar thing happens during the execute when you're spamming Soul Fire and perhaps have Doomguard up.

  8. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Exactly my point.

    You get one free movable charge. And why use that charge during a burn phase? Because it's a burn phase. Further, after Meta/DS are over, and Hero is still up, you'll generate Fury pretty quickly too, to get back into Meta and use DS again; similar thing happens during the execute when you're spamming Soul Fire and perhaps have Doomguard up.
    I dont see how that relates to the point of me implying that that gives up service for supremacy. You use your first AD charge together with your Service, then you use your 2nd AD charge on a mini burn phase. Am I missing something here?

    Furthermore, using your extra AD charge in the remaining heroism is one of the worst scenario that you can come up with. Heroism lasts for 40secs. DS lasts for 20sec. Basically your opener + your DS and Meta burn would probably take u 25 secs. You're left with 15 secs. Take 5-10secs to get back enough decent fury into your next DS, you're left with 5-10secs on heroism. Heroism is essentially a Meta gem proc. If I would put it in that scenario, would you burn your DS and fury dump into a meta proc? Or would you save it for a Kardris trinket + int proc and burn it together when you have a decent amount of fury left? I think it's pretty self explanatory.
    Last edited by Xephyria; 2013-10-17 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #2529
    Messed around w' demo on our rekill of h.siegecrafter last night...it was keeping pace w' destro however honestly each time I used demo I got an holy crap trinity of lasers during magnets (back to back), sawblade spammed, or someone just died to fall dmg on the belt (bug) thus wiping us. Also if I wasn't able to keep shadowflame/HoGx2 on add spawns (cuz I was running for my life from lasers) bombs got loose. So went back destro, shadowburn sniped bombs chasing randoms, F&B'd on the run, and killed it but as much due to not being the object of every raid hazard.

    Tried demo on thok too...double fixate death GG. By the end of the night I was pissed at the rng every time I went demo not allowing me to properly test it. I definitely feel demo has the potential but damn if RNG hates me when I do and I'm not even talking about trinket procs at awkward times. I feel like demo needs a bit better luck on evenly spaced trinket procs (which is why BB + bindings would be a big big deal) to function whereas dest or aff can react better to the more RNG nature of RPPM trinkets. Thus demo might top say 1:10 to 1:5 parses vs dest when its procs came spaced out around 60 sec from each other but most of the time the other specs will do better with less luck.

    That said I think its amazing for malkorok since the auto cleave nature of HoG, feltardo, and 4pc procs gives quite a bit of free damage. You can't always havoc snipe adds as destro since melee's executes are instant and they are sitting there in melee range w' instant melee attacks so even just the gcd or cast bar is enough to miss your chance as destro IF you have spot on melee.

    As far as AD goes you can use it in execute when you have fast in/fast out DF generation as a last resort if you didn't need it to cover a oops or had a perfect storm of procs earlier. Its also handy for progression to hold for when someone dies or you get behind on something and need a bit extra to cover/catch up. IE "xxxx is dead, adds spawning....AD > pewpew > GG"

    In terms of testing and sims I am seeing demo getting closer to destro (572ilvl, 4pc, etc) by going to nearly 15K haste than the 8097 > mast > crit > haste. Problem is doing so hurts destro. Aff likes that much haste but then you are passing on what is arguably the most effective spec right now.

  10. #2530
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xephyria View Post
    I dont see how that relates to the point of me implying that that gives up service for supremacy. You use your first AD charge together with your Service, then you use your 2nd AD charge on a mini burn phase. Am I missing something here?

    Furthermore, using your extra AD charge in the remaining heroism is one of the worst scenario that you can come up with. Heroism lasts for 40secs. DS lasts for 20sec. Basically your opener + your DS and Meta burn would probably take u 25 secs. You're left with 15 secs. Take 5-10secs to get back enough decent fury into your next DS, you're left with 5-10secs on heroism. Heroism is essentially a Meta gem proc. If I would put it in that scenario, would you burn your DS and fury dump into a meta proc? Or would you save it for a Kardris trinket + int proc and burn it together when you have a decent amount of fury left? I think it's pretty self explanatory.
    I got from your post that you were suggesting to use AD in accordance with Trinket procs, which causes a misalignment of DS with other cooldowns (personal and raid), and that somehow that flexibility was what made Demo strong. If I misunderstood, which seems to be the case since we seem to be actually agreeing, then meh.

    If you have Heroism at the pull, you've got Doomguard up so you're buffing that for its entire duration too, if you have it at the end in execute, you'll have infinite MC procs and Fury coming out of your ass. In respect to trinkets, I actually found BBY will almost always double proc at the pull too.

    Anyhow, I played it some more tonight and with 5-6 ilvls more compared to a couple of weeks ago it is performing significantly better. Worth noting that Hit scales absurdly for Demo at this gear level, it was something like double the value of Intellect for me last I checked at the weekend, so absolutely worth the Expertise/Mastery gems. I also found that using Glyph of Imp Swarm staved off Fury starvation when I needed it and offered up a reliable chunk of MC procs too. I can only hope the spec continues to scale this well with gear, although kinda sad to be asking 560+ ilvl for it to be even usable.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-10-17 at 10:07 PM.

  11. #2531
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Anyhow, I played it some more tonight and with 5-6 ilvls more compared to a couple of weeks ago it is performing significantly better. Worth noting that Hit scales absurdly for Demo at this gear level, it was something like double the value of Intellect for me last I checked at the weekend, so absolutely worth the Expertise/Mastery gems. I also found that using Glyph of Imp Swarm staved off Fury starvation when I needed it and offered up a reliable chunk of MC procs too. I can only hope the spec continues to scale this well with gear, although kinda sad to be asking 560+ ilvl for it to be even usable.
    Ignore the value of hit, you should always cap hit then go for the other stats. People are gemming Expertise/Mastery gems this tier is cos of the lack of hit on T16 loots and that would actually allow them to reforge more optimally. If you're using Glyph of Imp Swarm, you should really only be using it as the opener once just for the fury so that your first DS meta spam has sufficient fury and not bother about it for the rest of the fight.

    AD should always be used in accordance with trinket procs. The first AD charge should always be used together with felguard ( Major burn phase ). Your 2nd AD charge should be your mini burn phase. Your "first" AD charge should be delayed together with your service till the next round of purified bindings proc and do your major burn phase rotation again. ( They should almost align perfectly )

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    In terms of testing and sims I am seeing demo getting closer to destro (572ilvl, 4pc, etc) by going to nearly 15K haste than the 8097 > mast > crit > haste. Problem is doing so hurts destro. Aff likes that much haste but then you are passing on what is arguably the most effective spec right now.
    My suspicion for this is that, considering the nature of how fury starved demo is to actually make use of proper meta weaving through int procs, a higher haste set up would mean higher fury gains and thus an overall increase in dps.

  12. #2532
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    People are gemming expertise on red slots because every secondary stats is worth more than 0.5 int, so that is the optimal way to go. If you can gem expertise without getting over hitcap and reforging out of hit then you have more secondary stats than you would if you gemmed int.

  13. #2533
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    People are gemming expertise on red slots because every secondary stats is worth more than 0.5 int, so that is the optimal way to go. If you can gem expertise without getting over hitcap and reforging out of hit then you have more secondary stats than you would if you gemmed int.
    Yeah, when you have scale factors that look like this:


    It really is better to drop the Int for Expertise on those orange gems.

    AD should always be used in accordance with trinket procs. The first AD charge should always be used together with felguard ( Major burn phase ). Your 2nd AD charge should be your mini burn phase. Your "first" AD charge should be delayed together with your service till the next round of purified bindings proc and do your major burn phase rotation again. ( They should almost align perfectly )
    You're talking about using AD for a stars align event (high Fury + string of procs) that may never happen. If it does, great do it. Don't count on it though, otherwise you'll frequently find yourself sat there with a charge of AD and 20s left until the boss dies.

    I'll expand on my comment about Imp Swarm though, I feel if the spec needs anything fixing, then reverting the nerf that reduced the number of Imps it provides would be the best place to apply it. On Wednesday when I played without the glyph, I felt exactly as Brusalk put it, not terrible but Fury starved when it mattered. Last night when I put the glyph back because I knew that would fix that, the spec felt much better and overall I think I was doing more damage because I had the Fury when I was able to make the best use of it.

  14. #2534
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    You never gem Expertise because of Hits scale factors, you gem them because of Haste / Crit / Mastery scale factors. You aren't gaining extra hit from gemming hit over int, you are gaining other secondary stats that you no longer have to reforge because you can't have more then 5100 hit....

    If you are reforging 3k crit to 3k hit, and then you add an extra 3k expertise through gems, you aren't gaining 3k hit rating, you are gaining 3k crit.

    Hits scale factor is useless if you are debating expertise over int, you need to look at the stats you are actually gaining.

  15. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    You never gem Expertise because of Hits scale factors, you gem them because of Haste / Crit / Mastery scale factors. You aren't gaining extra hit from gemming hit over int, you are gaining other secondary stats that you no longer have to reforge because you can't have more then 5100 hit....

    If you are reforging 3k crit to 3k hit, and then you add an extra 3k expertise through gems, you aren't gaining 3k hit rating, you are gaining 3k crit.

    Hits scale factor is useless if you are debating expertise over int, you need to look at the stats you are actually gaining.
    The point being if you gain a higher ratio of secondaries to int from gemming expertise and putting a reforge elsewhere then you do vs. gemming secondaries + int, then it's a gain. Not sure why she plotted hit but the relevant concepts are there.

  16. #2536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furtylol View Post
    The point being if you gain a higher ratio of secondaries to int from gemming expertise and putting a reforge elsewhere then you do vs. gemming secondaries + int, then it's a gain. Not sure why she plotted hit but the relevant concepts are there.
    That is pretty much what he is saying already..

  17. #2537
    I cannot have put it better, zinnin.

  18. #2538
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Apparently Immolation Aura was nerfed 15-16% from the start of 5.4. Not sure when that happened because there is no note for it, didn't notice it until I started updating my spreadsheet and the numbers were off.

  19. #2539
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Apparently Immolation Aura was nerfed 15-16% from the start of 5.4. Not sure when that happened because there is no note for it, didn't notice it until I started updating my spreadsheet and the numbers were off.
    It was a first week hotfix, 20% to immolation and hellfire.

  20. #2540
    Brewmaster Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It was a first week hotfix, 20% to immolation and hellfire.
    I am aware that it was nerfed 20% the first week, I'm saying that IA is doing 15-16% less on live then it should be after the 20% nerf.

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