Holy Paladin 5.4

[Freia]

I think that should be @Juicyjonny considering that is who you have quoted ^^

On my quote, Hello! (joke), but seriously effective healing meters are always a terrible way since its only one data point and it depends on the healers you've got with you. For example, I raid 10man and 2 heal with a disc priest and a good one at that and he knows how to make my overhealing sky rocket, if I raided with a less absorb based healer no doubt my effective healing would go up and my overhealing down, doesn't really say much about my skill in a bigger picture.

And you don't think any of that is a problem? Stop posting the same garbage GC says. That Disc priest is doing more effective healing then you, bringing more absorbs to increase the effective health of your raid and damage to help against enrage timers. Yea healing meters aren't everything, there is utility and other things. That disc priest is still bringing more to that raid than you are on your paladin, which is the point people are trying to make. Paladins really bring little to the table because our throughput is being dwarfed by other healers(specifically in 25m) and the utility we have is not unique to our spec. The comment isn't about our skill as players just the weakness of the spec in comparison to other healers.

[Juicyjonny]

It looks like you got lost about 2 pages back when you started posting and started an argument with the wrong person, go back read the previous two pages and correct your posts because Pasture was not the one saying the things you seem to be arguing against and getting so worked up about.

Also I wouldn't use "keeping up on the meters" as being skilled, meters are always a terrible way to gauge performance in the top end. Maybe on a fight like Norushen it holds a bit of weight but even then it's who can heal snipe the AoE burst the quickest, the best snipers will always be the highest in effective healing (unless the fight favours a specific healer or healing type, eg, horridon for disc in 5.3, malkorok for monks in 5.4). Meters aren't the "be all and end all" way to see how skilled a particular person is especially at the top end where the healers are incredibly close in skill.

Lol, you're right I just realized it wasn't Pasture, but my point still rests.

But now onto you...Terrible way to judge peoples performance? So the person who is fastest at the keyboard is not the one who is performing better? If I am healing better than you and faster than you then that would in its OWN DEFINITION make me a better healer than you.

Your little statement makes no sense.

[Deleted]

I think paladins have enough utility...AM, 2x Sacrifice with Clemency, LoH, EF HoTs and Mastery Shields...in my opinion that makes a nice package...
As stated before...theres always room for improvements but I don't feel that Paladins are in a bad place and that we are that inferior to other classes at all...

[Juicyjonny]

Juicyjonny

Why would I do that? I know I'm not playing with the "best resto shaman/disc/druid/holy priest/monk" and I know that I'm not the best holy paladin...
During raids I compete with those in my guild...and those are the guys I measure myself against...
Sure...theres always room for improvement...but there will always be someone who's better than yourself, too...
It may be true that paladins lack in many ways but it heavily depends on the situation and what you make of it...
And I personally enjoy my Paladin a lot!


I believe we live in a world where everybody can freely speak his mind...maybe his ideas of how the paladin should be developed deviate from your own but if he would enjoy the paladin more that way, it's his opinion and you should always respect that!
And in the end how the paladin will be developed is not his decision anyhow

At Kyuuseishu

Hi Ghostcrawler

Lol you too on the meters? God... The reason the meters are there 'is' to gauge performance how else do you compare yourself to another person? It's like saying that premedical school students should not have to take their MCATs because it is a terrible way to gauge their performance in medical school.

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Meh, I feel like we are on par with other healers on most fights, but there are obvious nische fights where for example shamans are over the roof ridiculous. I cry a little bit inside on every thok heroic attempt, when our shaman is rocking it with healing rains and chain heals, while I have to really work my ass off and can't even compare ;_;

Lol, the one person who actually literate enough to understand the point...

We... Have... To... Work... Harder... For... the... same... exact... outcome...


Restoration shamans have healing tide and healing stream totem at the totem of their meters and with the new talent of dropping more than 1 totem from the same element now allows them to avoid the idea of clipping (It's not even just resto shamans either btw). I was 'somewhat' exaggerating on Hpaladins being complete shit, but you need to understand the big picture that we are no where near where we should be.

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And you don't think any of that is a problem? Stop posting the same garbage GC says. That Disc priest is doing more effective healing then you, bringing more absorbs to increase the effective health of your raid and damage to help against enrage timers. Yea healing meters aren't everything, there is utility and other things. That disc priest is still bringing more to that raid than you are on your paladin, which is the point people are trying to make. Paladins really bring little to the table because our throughput is being dwarfed by other healers(specifically in 25m) and the utility we have is not unique to our spec. The comment isn't about our skill as players just the weakness of the spec in comparison to other healers.

Thank you.

[Freia]

I think paladins have enough utility...AM, 2x Sacrifice with Clemency, LoH, EF HoTs and Mastery Shields...in my opinion that makes a nice package...
As stated before...theres always room for improvements but I don't feel that Paladins are in a bad place and that we are that inferior to other classes at all...

I can bring all of that utility minus mastery shields as ret or prot. Our mastery shields are far from reliable so if you want reliable absorbs, bring a disc priest.

[Deleted]

We... Have... To... Work... Harder... For... the... same... exact... outcome...

And how exactly is that a problem? Thats exactly the reason why I like playing a paladin...my personal opinion

The reason the meters are there 'is' to gauge performance how else do you compare yourself to another person?

Exactly...I can use them to compare myself to another person that has been in the exact same raid...that comparison works in the small universe of that raid...but comparing myself to another person in another raid is not that simple...because the actual end result seen in the meters heavily depends on the people in the raid, the healer composition, how the boss is designed and played and many other things...
Perhaps other healers have it easier...so what...thats life

I can bring all of that utility minus mastery shields as ret or prot. Our mastery shields are far from reliable so if you want reliable absorbs, bring a disc priest.

True..but it still is the same class just another specc...and that argument holds for other classes, too...

[Juicyjonny]

[QUOTE=Vallerian;22958032]And how exactly is that a problem? Thats exactly the reason why I like playing a paladin...my personal opinion

Yes, you love to work harder. You are someone who truly loves to push the envelope... I can just tell by your 12/14 NORMAL kills, no rankings, and your epeen bot rank placing you in the BOTTOM 9% of holy paladins across the board.

Oh and on top of that, you rarely take the talent 'Eternal Flame'... You love to work harder but from the looks of it all you do is Light of Dawn... Yeah, your method is way more difficult and adrenaline pumping then how paladins healed in 5.3.

Exactly...I can use them to compare myself to another person that has been in the exact same raid...that comparison works in the small universe of that raid...but comparing myself to another person in another raid is not that simple...because the actual end result seen in the meters heavily depends on the people in the raid, the healer composition, how the boss is designed and played and many other things...
Perhaps other healers have it easier...so what...thats life

No, you obviously don't understand how the meters work. You don't sit there and 'only' look at the numbers that are being showed to you. Have you gone through World of Logs? Do you know that there are other options to filter through other than just the HPS numbers? There are debuff timers, healing timers, amount of times you died (which from your logs, is a lot)... there are so many things that you are oblivious to that at this point in the discussion, i'm just too annoyed to go into detail.

[Freia]

True..but it still is the same class just another specc...and that argument holds for other classes, too...

No it does not hold true for other classes. HTT for elemental and enhancement is weaker than the resto version. And their other specs to not have Spirit link or the stam buff that their heals give. Tranq for other druids is only as strong as resto if they use another cooldown(Heart of the Wild) in conjunction with Tranq. Paladin is the only healer that shares the exact same utility as their other specs. Do you even play the same game?

[Kyuuseishu]

And you don't think any of that is a problem? Stop posting the same garbage GC says. That Disc priest is doing more effective healing then you, bringing more absorbs to increase the effective health of your raid and damage to help against enrage timers. Yea healing meters aren't everything, there is utility and other things. That disc priest is still bringing more to that raid than you are on your paladin, which is the point people are trying to make. Paladins really bring little to the table because our throughput is being dwarfed by other healers(specifically in 25m) and the utility we have is not unique to our spec. The comment isn't about our skill as players just the weakness of the spec in comparison to other healers.

I didn't make any mention of utility or anything of the likes, I agree that a disc priest brings more to the raid than I do because the utility brought by a holy paladin is brought by a ret or prot, I argued this in the 5.4 PTR thread. I was merely pointing out that the amount of weight Juicyjonny was putting on meters themselves is absurd because there are many more factors than just who has the highest effective HPS (Unless there is an equally absurd difference).

Lol, you're right I just realized it wasn't Pasture, but my point still rests.

But now onto you...Terrible way to judge peoples performance? So the person who is fastest at the keyboard is not the one who is performing better? If I am healing better than you and faster than you then that would in its OWN DEFINITION make me a better healer than you.

Your little statement makes no sense.

My statement makes perfect sense, effective healing meters are terrible. Meters are perfectly fine to gauge a DPS' performance because a majority of the data is there on the meters themselves. For a healer, not so much, being faster on a keyboard doesn't make you a better healer, if you define the best healer as the one who can heal snipe the quickest then hooray for you but away from that a lot more detail is needed than just highest E-HPS (which you stated one of your following posts).

I'm not saying paladin's are fine, I haven't once stated that, I know other classes get better overall results with lesser effort, I just argue the weight people put on E-HPS is far too much.

[Juicyjonny]

I didn't make any mention of utility or anything of the likes, I agree that a disc priest brings more to the raid than I do because the utility brought by a holy paladin is brought by a ret or prot, I argued this in the 5.4 PTR thread. I was merely pointing out that the amount of weight Juicyjonny was putting on meters themselves is absurd because there are many more factors than just who has the highest effective HPS.


My statement makes perfect sense, effective healing meters are terrible. Meters are perfectly fine to gauge a DPS' performance because a majority of the data is there on the meters themselves. For a healer, not so much, being faster on a keyboard doesn't make you a better healer, if you define the best healer as the one who can heal snipe the quickest then hooray for you but away from that a lot more detail is needed than just highest E-HPS (which you stated one of your following posts).

I'm not saying paladin's are fine, I haven't once stated that, I know other classes get better overall results with lesser effort, I just argue the weight people put on E-HPS is far too much.

Lol, of course there is more to consider than the meters. Obviously every guild is different because there can be 25 members in the raid who just stand in shit and take damage all day. But what I'm reading from your posts is that meters are entirely ineffectual. Why do you think when people apply to new guilds the one think they are mostly concerned about is the meters? It's because it's the only data that anyone has to gauge you as a healer or player. As I said before, you can be a complete genius and savant in a field of work or science and have test anxiety or be shit at taking tests. But the only way to gauge as a student/applicant/whatever is to have you take that standardized test. You obviously don't understand this and just think you shouldn't be subjected to comparison to other people.

WoL and meters is 'one' of the only pieces of information or empirical data that we have about players and to assess us to other classes.

Oh and by the way, if I am faster than you at the keyboard and snipe those heals then of course I am better than you. How can you possibly deny this fact? If your tank or another member of the raid is at 1% life and you're too slow to heal them then you have just failed as a healer. It's what makes our roles interesting and exhilarating; we have the power all in our 'hands and fingers'.

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I didn't make any mention of utility or anything of the likes, I agree that a disc priest brings more to the raid than I do because the utility brought by a holy paladin is brought by a ret or prot, I argued this in the 5.4 PTR thread. I was merely pointing out that the amount of weight Juicyjonny was putting on meters themselves is absurd because there are many more factors than just who has the highest effective HPS (Unless there is an equally absurd difference).


My statement makes perfect sense, effective healing meters are terrible. Meters are perfectly fine to gauge a DPS' performance because a majority of the data is there on the meters themselves. For a healer, not so much, being faster on a keyboard doesn't make you a better healer, if you define the best healer as the one who can heal snipe the quickest then hooray for you but away from that a lot more detail is needed than just highest E-HPS (which you stated one of your following posts).

I'm not saying paladin's are fine, I haven't once stated that, I know other classes get better overall results with lesser effort, I just argue the weight people put on E-HPS is far too much.

Oh and I also want to know something. If you don't like meters then allow me to ask you one question. "How would you evaluate members of your raid?" (Please, for the sake of the human species don't say personality)

[tru]

I think what they look at is / is a class so unbalanced that content cannot be cleared with them in the group. They will never actually get classes evenly balanced hpally never been good/best aoe healers they should remain the better single target healers imo. Class performance aside you do have to take a player's skill into consideration. I've seen classes/specs that raidbots would say that performs low royally destroy meters.at the end of the day if u are clearing content who cares if u are behind the#1 guy you all just won not that single person. Now if you feel that you cannot progress because of class balance then yea complain on official forums but yall are far from being broken or needing a revamp. Sometimes when changes occur they not always for the better or least not to you. Which is why I haven't touched my mm Hunter war or combat rogue in years. Lk boomkin was my fav playstyle ever haven't touched it since then.

[Jackielope]

Keep in mind standardized tests aren't always a good measure, as anyone who has taken a decent look at education should be able to tell you. If the test is climbing a tree then you're going to get very different results from a monkey than an elephant, and yet both might have their place.

So perhaps we should be discussing what tests would actually work for us? Besides easy ones like "doesn't let people die." Setting a minimum is nice and all, but we're more interested in what the maximum possibility is. What kind of testing does Blizzard itself employ? If we're going to make headway on our claims then we need to "beat them at their own game."

[Kyuuseishu]

Lol, of course there is more to consider than the meters. Obviously every guild is different because there can be 25 members in the raid who just stand in shit and take damage all day. But what I'm reading from your posts is that meters are entirely ineffectual. Why do you think when people apply to new guilds the one think they are mostly concerned about is the meters? It's because it's the only data that anyone has to gauge you as a healer or player. As I said before, you can be a complete genius and savant in a field of work or science and have test anxiety or be shit at taking tests. But the only way to gauge as a student/applicant/whatever is to have you take that standardized test. You obviously don't understand this and just think you shouldn't be subjected to comparison to other people.

WoL and meters is 'one' of the only pieces of information or empirical data that we have about players and to assess us to other classes.

Oh and by the way, if I am faster than you at the keyboard and snipe those heals then of course I am better than you. How can you possibly deny this fact? If your tank or another member of the raid is at 1% life and you're too slow to heal them then you have just failed as a healer. It's what makes our roles interesting and exhilarating; we have the power all in our 'hands and fingers'.

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Oh and I also want to know something. If you don't like meters then allow me to ask you one question. "How would you evaluate members of your raid?" (Please, for the sake of the human species don't say personality)

When people apply to a new guild they ask for logs, not meters, they just happen to be part of the log, there is a reason they just don't ask you to link a recent Skada entry.

On your real life comparison it isn't really an appropriate one especially when you are trying to draw comparisons to a game. On certain subjects, tests are the only way to gauge a persons performance in a subject area (I know, I do enough of them for my Master's Degree), but when it comes to healing, E-HPS is not the only way to gauge performance.

In the situation you've posted then yes, at that point the ability to act quick to changing circumstances especially ones of life and death, is one of the traits of a good healer, but just heal sniping under a general situation does not. To answer your final question I analyse the logs, offensive and defensive CD usage, the amount of damage taken, whether the damage they took was avoidable or not and if its a DPS, the amount of damage they did to priority targets not just meter padding.

[Juicyjonny]

I think what they look at is / is a class so unbalanced that content cannot be cleared with them in the group. They will never actually get classes evenly balanced hpally never been good/best aoe healers they should remain the better single target healers imo. Class performance aside you do have to take a player's skill into consideration. I've seen classes/specs that raidbots would say that performs low royally destroy meters.at the end of the day if u are clearing content who cares if u are behind the#1 guy you all just won not that single person. Now if you feel that you cannot progress because of class balance then yea complain on official forums but yall are far from being broken or needing a revamp. Sometimes when changes occur they not always for the better or least not to you. Which is why I haven't touched my mm Hunter war or combat rogue in years. Lk boomkin was my fav playstyle ever haven't touched it since then.

Are you one of those guys who thinks Holy paladins are only tank healers? You must have been those guys who got real far in TBC just by fasting Flash of Light on the tank for the entire expansion... 'The Sopranos' might have been a good show but guess what, "IT'S OVER, MOVE ON". You sound like my grandfather; stop living in the past.

Being in a top end raiding guild and clearing content but playing a obsolete class doesn't make me happy. I still want my class to be on par with the other classes. I am not being subbed out or benched in the least bit. But you do understand that what you're saying really is just a stupid and lazy way to look at it.

[Deleted]

@Juicyjonny
I never said that I'm a progamer or something like that...simply that I like playing my paladin and that it is a greater challange compared to other healing classes, which is something I like...
But just continue to point out how bad others around you are if it makes you feel better but let me tell you that it is considered rude to lash out at people that way in a discussion...

Regarding WoL and "debuff timers, healing timers, amount of times you died (which from your logs, is a lot)"...all stuff that depends on how bosses are played, the raid setup and all other players in the raid...thus comparing the E-HPS of player A in raid X to player B in raid Y is not that simple because all those other things have to be factored in aswell...
To use your MCAT comparison...that's a standardized test...
A bossfight on the other hand isn't due to the behavior of raidmembers, the raid setup and RNG...
That is ALL I wanted to say with my previous posts...
I agree with you that you can take the WoL reports to get a rough picture of a player and also to roughly determine if he knows what he is doing...but most guilds I've been in and that i know always prefer a live testraid to determine the potential of a new recruit

@Freia
Jup...thats true...I had prot/dps warris in mind when i wrote my comment as far as I know they share the same utilities, too.

[Juicyjonny]

Keep in mind standardized tests aren't always a good measure, as anyone who has taken a decent look at education should be able to tell you. If the test is climbing a tree then you're going to get very different results from a monkey than an elephant, and yet both might have their place.

So perhaps we should be discussing what tests would actually work for us? Besides easy ones like "doesn't let people die." Setting a minimum is nice and all, but we're more interested in what the maximum possibility is. What kind of testing does Blizzard itself employ? If we're going to make headway on our claims then we need to "beat them at their own game."

Lol, the entire educational system revolves around standardized tests. You think the educational system has not considered what you're saying? What other way would you subject millions of students and people to asses their intellectual capacity or understanding? I guess the MCAT for med students, PCAT for pharmacisian, LSAT for law students, etc etc. is all just the incorrect way of going at it.... -_- **Btw, don't ever say this to anyone in real life; They will mock your ignorance and stupidity till the end of time**

We don't have the luxury of creating a test for just the paladins. Right now what we have are multiple data collectors that we can use to our advantage and try to filter it to determine how we can either change our class or other classes. That is the way it works.

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When people apply to a new guild they ask for logs, not meters, they just happen to be part of the log, there is a reason they just don't ask you to link a recent Skada entry.

On your real life comparison it isn't really an appropriate one especially when you are trying to draw comparisons to a game. On certain subjects, tests are the only way to gauge a persons performance in a subject area (I know, I do enough of them for my Master's Degree), but when it comes to healing, E-HPS is not the only way to gauge performance.

In the situation you've posted then yes, at that point the ability to act quick to changing circumstances especially ones of life and death, is one of the traits of a good healer, but just heal sniping under a general situation does not. To answer your final question I analyse the logs, offensive and defensive CD usage, the amount of damage taken, whether the damage they took was avoidable or not and if its a DPS, the amount of damage they did to priority targets not just meter padding.

You knew exactly what I was referring to what I said 'meters'.

The logs given to us is also the only way to gauge a persons performance in this video game. We have nothing else at our disposal.

"You analyze the logs", this is what I have been waiting for the entire time. You do use the logs, the logs are an important and the key to a guilds success. Sounded like you were one of those pot-headed hippies who dismissed them entirely because they are a mode of conformity. Also, btw I was referring more to the HPS instead of the DPS. No one cares about padding on inconsequential mobs in a fight (it's cool and all but it's beside the point people are trying to make here). But as a healer you have a limited health pool in which you can heal.

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@Juicyjonny
I never said that I'm a progamer or something like that...simply that I like playing my paladin and that it is a greater challange compared to other healing classes, which is something I like...
But just continue to point out how bad others around you are if it makes you feel better but let me tell you that it is considered rude to lash out at people that way in a discussion...

Regarding WoL and "debuff timers, healing timers, amount of times you died (which from your logs, is a lot)"...all stuff that depends on how bosses are played, the raid setup and all other players in the raid...thus comparing the log of player A in raid X to player B in raid Y is not that simple because all those other things have to be factored in aswell...
To use your MCAT comparison...that's a standardized test...
A bossfight on the other hand isn't due to the behavior of raidmembers, the raid setup and RNG...
That is ALL I wanted to say with my previous posts...

@Freia
Jup...thats true...I had prot/dps warris in mind when i wrote my comment as far as I know they share the same utilities, too.

Wait... do boss mechanics change in regards to other guilds? Does Garrosh do something different to me than it does to you? I am so confused at what you're trying to say.

Oh and please don't take offense to my ad hominem attacks, I meant nothing personal by it. But you do need to understand that what you're saying makes no sense. Do not claim that you enjoy a difficult healing class and compare us to other classes, because you have never experienced it. If you think that healing on a paladin is more difficult then please go back to my initial post and tell me why you are casting FEWER spells this tier than last tier? The only thing you are doing when I look at your guilds logs is that you're Holy shocking and then LoD mindlessly. It's not like you have to consider who to blanket with EF, or whos shield is about to run out or if you need to beacon dance on multiple tanks. You don't do any of that.

Healing on a paladin is more difficult but you're saying it for the wrong reasons. You don't know how to properly heal as a Holy Paladin which is why this bothers me so much. You claim you know so much about the class and are arguing that they have put paladins in a good place and are currently at the pinnacle of their healing development.

[Freia]

@Freia
Jup...thats true...I had prot/dps warris in mind when i wrote my comment as far as I know they share the same utilities, too.

Are they healers and have their healing output balanced by their overall utility and what they bring to the raid? No.

[Jackielope]

Lol, the entire educational system revolves around standardized tests. You think the educational system has not considered what you're saying? What other way would you subject millions of students and people to asses their intellectual capacity or understanding? I guess the MCAT for med students, PCAT for pharmacisian, LSAT for law students, etc etc. is all just the incorrect way of going at it.... -_- **Btw, don't ever say this to anyone in real life; They will mock your ignorance and stupidity till the end of time**

Must you be so insulting? There are better ways to communicate than trying to illicit emotional responses from people. Ad hominem is a rhetological fallacy. Attack the argument, not the person.

And yes, some standard tests work for very specialized knowledge. Making sure a chemist knows the patterns of -ite, -ate, -ous, and so forth for various ions and compounds is most easily done with a standardized test, although for some people that might not work depending on delivery since some people are far better at acing an oral exam than a written one.

But would a standard test work here though? Maybe for bare minimum stuff, but to compare the strengths of one class against the strengths of another and assess whether one is lacking might require something besides a standard test and instead would require a specially-made test to properly assess the performance differences. If Blizz is saying "paladins are fine" then we need to attack that claim from both the bottom and top.

We don't currently have a test to specifically analyze paladins as far as I'm aware, but that doesn't mean one couldn't be built if the right people got on the job and made it a reality. I don't expect you would be one of those people given your mindset, and I'm not one either given my lack of programming capability. But that just means we need more discussion on it to hopefully nail down what needs to be tested so we can make a case to Blizzard that they can't ignore. "That is the way it works" doesn't always hold water, especially when something could work better. Right now, and in the future, we will need something better than HPS or even eHPS since, as you said, people have a finite amount of health which means resources might be more effectively and efficiently spent on doing something else instead of playing whack-a-mole with healing.

At least we do have some math to analyze things within paladins. Bouche proved through numbers that EF is better for healing a tank than SH/LoD is.

[Deleted]

You claim you know so much about the class and are arguing that they have put paladins in a good place and are currently at the pinnacle of their healing development.

I never said or did that! I said that I enjoy the paladin the way he is right now and that I don't think he is in a bad place right now.
Could he be better? Sure! Is he at the pinnacle of healing developement? Nope!
Is he regardless of both of the above still fun to play? To me, he is! Personal opinion!
I played Rdruid, RShaman and Priest before and I stayed with my paladin because I felt he was more of a challenge...
That's what I meant to say. Clear now?
I don't deny you your opinion and sight of things...I merely stated that I have a different one

Wait... do boss mechanics change in regards to other guilds? Does Garrosh do something different to me than it does to you? I am so confused at what you're trying to say.

The mechanics don't change per se...but the way they are handled changes per guild... two or three-healing fights also affects the outcome...
If you play in a raid where people tend to take dmg like hell, there is more to heal thus resulting in higher hps vs. the raid where everyone avoids dmg...

[tru]

Are you one of those guys who thinks Holy paladins are only tank healers? You must have been those guys who got real far in TBC just by fasting Flash of Light on the tank for the entire expansion... 'The Sopranos' might have been a good show but guess what, "IT'S OVER, MOVE ON". You sound like my grandfather; stop living in the past.

Being in a top end raiding guild and clearing content but playing a obsolete class doesn't make me happy. I still want my class to be on par with the other classes. I am not being subbed out or benched in the least bit. But you do understand that what you're saying really is just a stupid and lazy way to look at it.

Because only the opinion you have counts