45 min LFR queue as DPS. Yes, it's about tanks...

[khalltusk]

MSV LFR. ONE tank has to be there and stay focused.

Aside from will of the emperor this is do-able with one tank, I bet with good enough gear you can solo tank will but the dancing might get messy!

[calanos]

Think of your average LFR run, the main points of difficulty are:

1) How many Heals/DPS are AFK/not playing the role they queued for
2) Do you have at least 1 quality tank
3) Does the lower quality tank speak your language and/or have any interest in listening to the good tank?

Yes, people berate bad tanks. But its a matter of visibility. There are usually 5-8 DPS who are definitely not paying attention to the LFR, or dying on purpose, or doing their opener then going AFK. Same with healers. Or if they are actually trying but don't know mechanics etc, they can usually stand in the fire as long as they want with no consequence.

But if the tank isn't paying attention or doesn't know what to do, or even just makes an honest mistake/forgets a mechanic....everybody who is paying attention (or isn't and notices a wipe) immediately sees it. And because its anonymous LFR, they immediately call for a kick. And the people who are AFKing and just want to finish fast usually click yes.

TL;DR: Its a shitty system for tanks, mostly because its the only role anybody notices in LFR, and the only one that an individual player has any actual control over the outcome of.

[Deleted]

People just dont want the responsibility of having to manage tanking.. Expecialy when you have people over aggroing on every pull.. Or Pulling extra adds.. And if you cant manage all that the blame can fall on you the tank most of the times..

For all the work it takes it dosent feel that rewarding..

The simple solution would be to make it so the roles that get played less get that bag with extra stuff all the time and some extra charms.. And maby a comulative bonus thing were the more dungeons you did in a role that isnt as popular (tanks or healers) the more rewarding the bag could be.. This would be repeatable every day for a couple times..

[Snorkles]

I agree. The only dps I can guarantee to get kicked are those who have been afk through the fight and won't accept a rez. Or those who have DC'd. Simply being afk won't get them kicked - I'll be told to start the fight without them. That is how important they are.

Ye, it's pretty common to see 'just pull' when 2-3 DPS or even a healer are missing.

Something that I always remember (and which still makes me laugh even now), a while back, probably not too long after the final wing of ToT opened up, I was doing Lei Shen in LFR quite late at night (~2am UK, so 3am server time). Things had been pretty standard up until this point, wasn't great but not bad either. Bunch of people left though before we got to Lei Shen so we were sat around waiting for new people to join which took a while given the time. Eventually we were full, all prepped and ready to go. corners were marked, groups were given their mark, everything was pretty much set except for one minor problem. That tanks had no idea what to do. Not a problem I thought, someone just needs to say 'move away from conduit before it reaches 100' simple, right? Well, no. Instead 2 guys, who had just joined started lambasting the Tanks, calling them 'nubs' etc and promptly started a vote kick. For both of them...Typical mob mentally of just 'click accept' and whoosh, they were gone. So here we all are, 2am, sat, waiting. And waiting, and then some more waiting. After 10minutes ~10 people had left. Then 15, then 20. After 30 minutes (Why I stayed I don't know) there was only a handful of us left. I left at this point, a little bit annoyed because I wouldn't have been able to play until the next reset so had missed my chance of killing Lei Shen. The tanks had done nothing wrong. They weren't even given a chance to.

It was at that point I thought 'I'll never tank LFR for anyone, ever. People just don't deserve it'. And I could tank all the current LFRs if I wanted (510 ilvl Prot Warrior OS).

Which is a sad state of affairs but people bring this on themselves. It's not just limited to the 'LFR crowd' either, the two in my anecdote were from a Normal raiding guild so this silly attitude extends across the entire demographic. We 'as a community' are to blame, unfortunately.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Ye, it's pretty common to see 'just pull' when 2-3 DPS or even a healer are missing.

Something that I always remember (and which still makes me laugh even now), a while back, probably not too long after the final wing of ToT opened up, I was doing Lei Shen in LFR quite late at night (~2am UK, so 3am server time). Things had been pretty standard up until this point, wasn't great but not bad either. Bunch of people left though before we got to Lei Shen so we were sat around waiting for new people to join which took a while given the time. Eventually we were full, all prepped and ready to go. corners were marked, groups were given their mark, everything was pretty much set except for one minor problem. That tanks had no idea what to do. Not a problem I thought, someone just needs to say 'move away from conduit before it reaches 100' simple, right? Well, no. Instead 2 guys, who had just joined started lambasting the Tanks, calling them 'nubs' etc and promptly started a vote kick. For both of them...Typical mob mentally of just 'click accept' and whoosh, they were gone. So here we all are, 2am, sat, waiting. And waiting, and then some more waiting. After 10minutes ~10 people had left. Then 15, then 20. After 30 minutes (Why I stayed I don't know) there was only a handful of us left. I left at this point, a little bit annoyed because I wouldn't have been able to play until the next reset so had missed my chance of killing Lei Shen. The tanks had done nothing wrong. They weren't even given a chance to.

It was at that point I thought 'I'll never tank LFR for anyone, ever. People just don't deserve it'. And I could tank all the current LFRs if I wanted (510 ilvl Prot Warrior OS).

Which is a sad state of affairs but people bring this on themselves. It's not just limited to the 'LFR crowd' either, the two in my anecdote were from a Normal raiding guild so this silly attitude extends across the entire demographic. We 'as a community' are to blame, unfortunately.

Dude, don't take it personally. I'm a 559 tank an I don't want to tank LFR, so what's that say?

[hugsofdeath]

I already tank all 4 wings of LFR and flex, and my main spec is ret, I just like the faster que times.

I would go back and continue to tank them after my first kill per week if there was some type of decent reward. a random flask or uncut gem is not reward enough for me.

[Spl4sh3r]

so you want to homogenize classes even more by adding tank specs for a few classes.. ignoring two pure classes rogues and mages. did it occur to you that people playing certain classes love them BECAUSE they cant tank? soloing some stuff is one thing, but pure dps classes are fun in spite of not being able to heal/tank. so no, we dont need to open up classes to tanking roles just to attempt to lower your queue times.

edit: they actually added a new tank class.. monks. no real time decrease was felt. my guess, its not a desirable role no matter how many classes can tank. change the way the players treat everybody and our times might go down.

I don't see why you think more tank classes is homogenization. You are using it in such a general way that it doesn't have any real meaning to it. With that statement they shouldn't add more classes because they would be roles we already got meaning the overall amount of classes would be more similar because they keep adding hybrids with ties in multiple roles and make them more similar.

However adding more roles for the PURE classes would be a immense step forward in making queue's shorter. Since then most of the DPS can become healers/tanks even if it's just for offspec and then do those roles in LFR even though they use their DPS spec as the loot spec.

[MadBloke101]

However adding more roles for the PURE classes would be a immense step forward in making queue's shorter. Since then most of the DPS can become healers/tanks even if it's just for offspec and then do those roles in LFR even though they use their DPS spec as the loot spec.

You could add healer/tank to all of the classes that would be missing either one or both - the issue would still remain - people don't want to tank LFR due to the nature of the people they meet there plus the added responsibility for so little reward.

take tanking out of LFR - get NPC's to do it and be done with the whole thing imo. tanking in flex and upwards all good

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I don't see why you think more tank classes is homogenization. You are using it in such a general way that it doesn't have any real meaning to it. With that statement they shouldn't add more classes because they would be roles we already got meaning the overall amount of classes would be more similar because they keep adding hybrids with ties in multiple roles and make them more similar.

However adding more roles for the PURE classes would be a immense step forward in making queue's shorter. Since then most of the DPS can become healers/tanks even if it's just for offspec and then do those roles in LFR even though they use their DPS spec as the loot spec.

I guarantee you that wouldn't happen. Just because it's added doesn't mean people would switch.

Bottom of the line is, people don't tank because they don't want to. They don't like the responsibility. Tanks are naturally leaders and shoulder the most responsibility of the groups. We've seen it in dungeons, heroics, and raids - people want, no, expect the tanks to lead. Adding a tank or healer spec for say, a warlock or hunter wouldn't fix anything, because most players would still queues as DPS, they'd still AFK as DPS, and they'd still complain as DPS.

[Grubjuice]

Dude, don't take it personally. I'm a 559 tank an I don't want to tank LFR, so what's that say?

but in all honesty you have no reason to tank LFR, i mean is there any reward you could get out of it, certainly no meaningful gear at the point your at.

[judgementofantonidas]

my arse they do :-/
I lfr on at least 7 of my 11 90s (my lowest is 490ilvl) as often as possible every week

Ive seen proportionately MORE dps afking, than healers. I hate both equally, and in my eyes ANY afker deserves to be kicked.
No matter how I bring it to the attention of the raid, they seem to somehow be protected.
either by constant pulls "cant kick during/after combat"
leaving rolls on greens to slowly time out "cant kick during loot roll"
or by "who gives a shit, its only lfr"
Since 5.4 of all the afkers ive encountered, MORE of them out-geared the content, than didn't, ei: legendary questers.

Out of 24 vote kickers, its far too fucking hard to find 3 others to vote kick the afkers.
you find a bad/new/undergeared tank, and they're gone as soon timers allow it.

Maybe its a battlegroup/zone thing, who knows.

But with azjol-nerub EU and the linked servers we lfr, tanks get kicked an awful lot faster and more frequently than afk/shit/slacking dps and healers.
Mistakes from the role with the most responsibility to the fight outcome, are tolerated alot less than from the rest of the group.
Prime example: Hunter bitching about add aggro, but God forbid they actually break their dps rotation to pop a misdirect.....

Its ironic that dps and healers complain of a lack of competent/willing tanks, are in my opinion, the cause of the very problem they're whingeing about

As someone who completely hates the obvious afkers all you need to do is ask and I will sit right down on my hairy white ass till their kick protection runs out.

- - - Updated - - -

Aside from will of the emperor this is do-able with one tank, I bet with good enough gear you can solo tank will but the dancing might get messy!

since a well geared tank can sit through the cleaves in LFR, yes it is.

- - - Updated - - -

but in all honesty you have no reason to tank LFR, i mean is there any reward you could get out of it, certainly no meaningful gear at the point your at.

the reward that laughing at all the things that are just bad in LFR brings.

[Grubjuice]

i said it before, but it bears repeating, this is not a supply-side problem, this a demand-side problem.
There are plenty of people who know how to tank, who have tanking specs and tanking gear sets (i.e. there is no shortage of supply),
but the incentives that would increase their demand/desire to play a tank are currenntly insufficient. Rewards need to be increased.
e.g. More valor, more guaranteed gear, more gold, valuable mats.

[Deleted]

Somehow from my point of view the problem is rather a lack of healers than a lack of tanks.
recently I had a 45 min que as a tank for LFR, still got a bag for some strange reason but still had a long que.

[Keepwatukill]

Aside from will of the emperor this is do-able with one tank, I bet with good enough gear you can solo tank will but the dancing might get messy!

You can easily solo tank Emperor with my gear (560i). The way I found this out was not intentional, but the other tank I was with in LFR decided for the whole instance that taunt was part of his regular rotation and was so clueless I freaked out and started whispering him angrily to stop this craziness. He eventually AFK'd outside the door to the Emperor thinking that he would grief me and the whole raid by ensuring I was the only tank in the room when inevitably some random player starts the encounter without even knowing what they are clicking on. Everyone freaked as the fight started but I sent out one simple Raid Warning : "I will solo #yolo" and I stacked up both guys in the middle near the stairs and just ate the cleaves with no dancing and I never dropped below 75% health and eneded up #1dps and we one shotted it. This all happened while the moron other tank stood outside the door whispering me have fun wiping without me. Well I proved that theory wrong. The good tanks like myself actually love tanking whether its low level or high level content, I just simply love tanking and you need me and people like me to constantly Q for LFR and LFD to make it work. Now that the legendary quest is done for me and every single other good/geared tank in game you will not see us in LFR because the reward for the effort it takes a player like me to carry the absolutely horrendous players your are matched with is simply not there. If you want me and all the other tanks who forgot LFR after the legendary quest then give us some serious prizes for Q'ing up and carrying morons. I mean real serious rewards. I want a satchel for every boss we down and I want those satchels to be worth potentionally 10k gold plus with awesome mounts rare pets and raid supplies (feasts, flasks, potions)

PS: I have also now stopped Q'ing nearly as much for LFD because at my gear level I can now solo heroic 5 mans, so for me to get excited again about LFD I need more prizes for that as well

[riptal]

I think alot of people want to try tanking. The problem is they dont want to be treat the way the dps treat the tank in LFD/LFR. Just yesterday I was in 3 different LFD groups and 2 different LFR groups. For 4 out of 5 groups we had a rookie tank and dps was so cruel with them...Like "Noob tank" " Cant hold agro" "Let's kick the dumb tank" "Come on pull moron!!!"

It's always the same thing with people. They dont respect each others in those groups and it's all start with the tank because he have the leading role. There's no way you can learn without having to deal with hard words from the dps... Let me say that yesterday with lost 4 more tanks in the game just because some dps was in a rush to faceroll they're dungeon.

The real problem is THE GAME IS NOT FUN ANYMORE FOR TANKS... Dps just want to faceroll everything without giving the chance to the tank to learn the game. I'm a long time player and no way I will tank anymore for people I dont know. There's not enough respect anymore in this game. Even if I'm mainly a dps let me say that the truth is dps attitude are the real problem!

Sorry for my English!

[saucywench]

When a player rolls a tank I expect them to know their role and execute it successfully, know the fights and yes explain it to the group if necessary, perform ready checks, use raid markers for attack order and do it all the time. 98% of the time none of these basic duties are being met, the tanks die and raid wipes happen, lfr groups fall apart and queues become long. Imho, raid designs need to deviate away from making 23 ppl suffer at the mercy of 2, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Museigen]

It's really up to the majority of the group, which isn't tanks since there's only two of them and not so much healers since there's significantly less of them as well. Got in the 3rd wing lfr on spoils with 2 stacks of determination first thing I see is, "You are now the leader." Super, I ask in raid chat if groups were assigned or if I should start from the beginning and a resto shaman asks me to start over because the first two attempts were miserable. As im figuring out the groups the other tank asks what to do as he's never done it before, I whisper him back and explain it to him.

This process took maybe 3-5 minutes as I was waiting on the last healer to queue in to fill groups properly, sure enough one dps starts complaining "Just go." I said in raid chat I'm explaining the fight to someone who asked and organizing groups on the off chance you don't want to wipe again. Surprisingly the whole group tells the impatient one to wait, healer drops in and I do a three line explanation of bombs/matterswap/kill kuchongs and urns first. Pull and one shot. Proceed to thok and my surge protector pops killing my PC, quickly diagnose it by turning the fan on thats plugged directly into the wall in the same socket.

Plug PC/monitor in directly log back on no more than 2 minutes later to a message, "I'd rather just wait and not wipe a bunch more times." I gave a 3 line explanation of thok, we wiped once because people got ran over but upon saying the giant dinosaur stepping on you hurts easily downed him 2nd pull. Many people said good group, nice change of pace from normal LFR some people personally whispered thanks for leading the group (even though I did very little to be honest) and people went on their way.

The point of my TL;DR is if every LFR went like that...I'd have no problem tanking them, none at all. The problem is a LFR where people listen and give me 3 minutes to whisper the other tank while organizing groups and then actually stand in matterswap is a 1/100 chance. At least it feels that way to me.

[riptal]

When a player rolls a tank I expect them to know their role and execute it successfully, know the fights and yes explain it to the group if necessary, perform ready checks, use raid markers for attack order and do it all the time. 98% of the time none of these basic duties are being met, the tanks die and raid wipes happen, lfr groups fall apart and queues become long. Imho, raid designs need to deviate away from making 23 ppl suffer at the mercy of 2, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

So for you, the tank role is a full time job! No Wonder why we miss so many tanks! So if we listen to you, if you want to tank you have to watch video, read guide and practice alot before entering any LFR or LFD. But if you're a dps you can go as soon as you got the requirement and yell after the tank because you died while standing in the shit!

Maybe you forget that at the base it's just a game and you're not suppose to study hard outside the game to play and have fun! Maybe we should kick all those newbies and casual players out of the game! So after you'll have a good time playing with elites only!

[khalltusk]

You can easily solo tank Emperor with my gear (560i). The way I found this out was not intentional, but the other tank I was with in LFR decided for the whole instance that taunt was part of his regular rotation and was so clueless I freaked out and started whispering him angrily to stop this craziness. He eventually AFK'd outside the door to the Emperor thinking that he would grief me and the whole raid by ensuring I was the only tank in the room when inevitably some random player starts the encounter without even knowing what they are clicking on. Everyone freaked as the fight started but I sent out one simple Raid Warning : "I will solo #yolo" and I stacked up both guys in the middle near the stairs and just ate the cleaves with no dancing and I never dropped below 75% health and eneded up #1dps and we one shotted it. This all happened while the moron other tank stood outside the door whispering me have fun wiping without me. Well I proved that theory wrong. The good tanks like myself actually love tanking whether its low level or high level content, I just simply love tanking and you need me and people like me to constantly Q for LFR and LFD to make it work. Now that the legendary quest is done for me and every single other good/geared tank in game you will not see us in LFR because the reward for the effort it takes a player like me to carry the absolutely horrendous players your are matched with is simply not there. If you want me and all the other tanks who forgot LFR after the legendary quest then give us some serious prizes for Q'ing up and carrying morons. I mean real serious rewards. I want a satchel for every boss we down and I want those satchels to be worth potentionally 10k gold plus with awesome mounts rare pets and raid supplies (feasts, flasks, potions)

PS: I have also now stopped Q'ing nearly as much for LFD because at my gear level I can now solo heroic 5 mans, so for me to get excited again about LFD I need more prizes for that as well

I suspected it would be solo tanked in higher gear.

I am unsure about 10k gold per satchels thats a bit too far I think make satchels a reward for lower Tier LFRS and include more flasks or food items + gold in there. Might get more tanks to go into LFR lower tiers.

For me I like doing LFD still once a day if I can, mainly for reputation + easy VP.

[Odina]

So for you, the tank role is a full time job! No Wonder why we miss so many tanks! So if we listen to you, if you want to tank you have to watch video, read guide and practice alot before entering any LFR or LFD. But if you're a dps you can go as soon as you got the requirement and yell after the tank because you died while standing in the shit!

Maybe you forget that at the base it's just a game and you're not suppose to study hard outside the game to play and have fun! Maybe we should kick all those newbies and casual players out of the game! So after you'll have a good time playing with elites only!

As a tank I belive he is correct! The role is to protect the group and since there is only 2 of you to protect said group you better know wtf you are doing! If you want to take it easy and not have that stress then you can DPS (every class that is a tank has a dps spec they could use).

You may see it as a full time job but I see it as playing the game properly and putting some time into your HOBBY instead of just rolling up and wasting other peoples time. If you want to play the "it's just a game not a job" card then by all means don't play the part of the game that involves other people and play how ever the hell you want no one will care!

I really never got that argument... what other team hobby do people do yet do 0 reaserch in it or don't try to help the team by comming prepared? It's like some one being on a standby roster for a hockey team as a goalie then showing up with no glove, blocker,mask, or pads and just in regular forward/deff gear going "Ok I'm here I'm a goalie what do I do?" would you be ok with them going "lol it's ok it's just a game guys why so mad".