Garrosh 10 v 25 balance issues

[Nightgloom]

I did both 25man Garrosh and 10man Garrosh on normal, not quite there yet on heroic.

10man felt a lot easier to me because stuff just pretty much falls over so quick compared to 25man (though at this point we're also just facerolling 25man normal down).

The first time we killed garrosh was in the first reset on 25man, which was pretty much in heroic ToT gear. I think the boss died on ~5th pull so that wasnt entirely difficult either

Then I did Garrosh on my alt in our 10man altrun the week before, which also died in like 5 pulls. I think the only problem we had on 10man was to sync healing cooldowns at the right spots (2-healing it with 2 crap geared alts...).
The minions of Y'Shaarj seemed to be a joke on 10man because they had so little health, so I dont think the add numbers are off by a lot.

Overall I think its the same as 25man vs 10man in general: 10man is a lot more dependent on a good (or at least decent) class setup and personal performance. Our 10man setup was actually pretty terrible, but we still managed it because people knew the fight.

[celinamuna]

You... You think you need to kill both?

You don't need to, but there is basically no reason to let any of em through, at least on normal.

[Numiro]

Yes it does.

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Hi I am a warlock, I have read the thread where 1 confused warlock claims he sees an immune text when using his observers special.
When I use it I get the silence interrupt also if I sac fel I get the silence interrupt.
I actually tested it after reading that thread and well hes just wrong sorry it works fine.

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Why would you need to stack on the boss for whirling?
They didn't fix or change any mechanic on garrosh silence worked since day one.

Perhaps you should read your own spells some time? The warlock silence has an interuppt tied to it, the priest does NOT have one tied to it (on a player target), if the add is silence immune it'll continue to cast just like normal, your warlock pet silence has an interuppt PLUS a silence, not just a silence, which is why it still works in p3.

You stack on the boss for whirling to not lose uptime on the boss, crucial to not waste time in p2 and basically the only way to not get the 2nd empowerment. It's doable in 10 man but most guilds have to bring 3 healers and blow all CD's on the one where you have a weapon spawning on top of you at the same time as he aoe's (or have the ranged and melee group spread, which probably requires even more CD's)

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If the adds are really a problem in 10m, your solution is not out of line.

They're far from the hard part of the fight, but they're draining a lot of resources that needs to be spent on the harder parts so this would totaly make it reasonable.

[Hulkovius]

Well according to wowprogress it seems like 25 man HC is a different fight than 10 man HC. Losing a guy or failing in 10 man seems more devastating. Also the different abilities mentioned in the thread differs ofc and some of em seem harder in 10 man.

But perhaps there is more hardcore/ skilled 25 mans out there than 10 mans. Although I choose not to believe that.

[Sengiratolom]

I'm not trying to create a whine thread here of 10 v 25 raiding content, but since my guild has been struggling on garrosh 10 and it seems 25m guilds are having a higher rate of success with the fight (wowprogress reports 43% of 25m guilds have downed normal garrosh, vs 19% of 10m guilds), I was trying to see how various differences are affecting the fight.

These are my observations from having pulled 10m over 50 times and having watched 5 separate 25m normal kill vidoes. I'm looking for input from 25m guild people about the accuracy of my perceptions.

I'm only going to talk about the components I think I have a decent influence on the difficulty of the fight. No one cares about phase 1/transitions since no one really struggles with those parts.

Whirling Corruption

Non-Empowered seems easier on 25 simply because there are more aoe healing effects on the ground typically, but we'll call it a wash and not worried about the non-empowered ability.

Empowered:

10 man - very difficult to coordinate killing adds without them becoming empowered, 5-6 dps vs. 8 adds with 1m health, difficult to keep separated especially off 2 healers with healing aggro and not a lot of dps with aggro abilities.
25 man - same number of adds so 17-19 dps depending on how many healers you're carrying vs 8 adds with 3m health. Seems much easier to keep separated.

25 man has it easier on this one by far in my opinion. Its much easier to deal with a lower add/people ratio than it is to deal with adds with lower health, especially if 40% of your raid is melee (2 tanks, 2 melee).

Suggestion: I would prefer to see 4 adds with 2 million health on 10m. Even though that still means we have to do more dps than 25s, it at least gives us a better chance to keep them separate.

I'm not even going to talk about the fact that its possible for 25m to carry 3 tanks and have one just kite the adds the entire phase 2 and 3. (ala Blood Legion)

Touch of Y'shaarj

10 man - 2 raid members targeted, non-tanks so chance of being selected is 1/4. 1/8 chance of having both healers MC'd if 2 healing.
25 man - 4 raid members targeted, non-tanks so chance of being targeted is 4/23 (lets just say 1/6). Chance of all healers being MC'd is usually 0 since most teams run with 5 or more healers, but even if you have only 4 healers the chance is somewhere around 4% that you'd have all 4 MC'd at once.

If empowered, even worse, as we have fewer pure interrupts on 10m than on 25.

Obviously the ratio is skewed here greatly. I think its much easier for 21 people to deal with 4 mind controls than it is for 8 people to deal with 2. Most 10 man videos I watch has the entire team collapse on the melee pile for mind control interrupts, and then they have to spread for desecrated weapon. 25 man simply has two stacks, one in melee and one at ranged, and they don't need to waste time running back and forth, as you are guaranteed to have enough interrupts at either stack point to handle the problem.

Suggestion: I can't think of a way to fix this one because blizzard never (almost never) "buffs" a fight after release, and the best way to make this fair would be to give 25m 5 MCs to deal with instead of 4. The other way would be to take away one from each and have 3 on 25 and 1 on 10m (making 10m slightly easier) but I think overall that change would trivialize the mechanic on both sides.

Desecrated Weapon

6.3M v 15.2M health - but I think the larger issue with the desecrated weapons is that they're almost trivial to kill in 25s because you are almost guaranteed to have enough multi-dot classes that you don't lose too much dps off the boss to keep them cleaned up in phase 2. Most 10m raids are going to have to focus a weapon down losing time on boss if they want them cleaned up.

Suggestion: Honestly I don't care about this mechanic but if they want to balance the difficulties lower the health of the weapon by 10%.

Garrosh's Health

419M v 1.16B. Typical raid comp 6dps vs 18dps. 6dps vs 18dps. But wait, tanks these days put up decent numbers with vengeance, so I'll even count 2 tanks as 1.5 dps (even though 25m tanks do more dps thanks to higher vengeance). 7.5dps vs 19.5dps.

419M / 7.5DPS = 55.8
1.16B / 19.5DPS = 59.4

Probably, the same proportional health. I am pretty sure this is how Blizzard decided on this number ratio for health, however, it discounts how many more offensive cooldowns (banners, totems, etc) there are in 25 vs 10, and also how much more time on boss 25 has vs 10 because of less movement and a lower add/dps ratio for empowered whirling corruption.

Conclusion

Since, again, Blizzard does not "buff" fights after release, the best way to balance this fight in my opinion is to nerf the 10 man side. Based on my perceptions the change I would suggest is to simply halve the number of Minions that spawn from empowered whirling corruption, and double their hit points to compensate. Even though I feel boss health, MCs, and weapons are easier to deal with on 25, I think giving 10m guilds more time on the boss and making it easier to regroup after empowered whirling corruption will help tremendously. Is that too much of a nerf? I'm afraid Blizzard will just do the lazy thing and say "10% less boss health on 10m" or something.

I'm looking for discussion and not flames about the formats. I'm not whining for a nerf here because lets face it, given the numbers of 10m kills vs 25m kills, even at the heroic level, a nerf is most certainly coming. I just wonder what would be the most fair nerf to give the encounter.

Allright i'll bite and comment on your post.

Haven't experienced hc garrosh yet so cant comment on that (11/14 hc atm) but i'll give my view on the normal mode.

Having both healers mced is not 1/8 as you make it sound, as every non tank has a 1/8 chance, and the 2nd target obviously a 1/7 so having both healers mced would be more like 1/56 (chance of 1 in 8*7).

25man guild can kill garrosh with a single stack tactic, we did that last night and the boss died in less then 6min. We didn't move @ all and just outhealed the aoe killed the weapon+ adds, same way is done for mcs as they just get aoed down. What is this running you speak of?

Any fight with relative downscaled health on adds makes it easyer for 10mans to kill them as the burst of a single person isn't scaled down, prime example is ragnaros hc back then, relative downscaled adds allowed 1 person to kill 2 adds in 10man, while 2-3 were needed on 25 to kill the same add, hence making the 2nd meteor more likely to spawn as the dmg was obviously not going anywhere else then small adds till they died.

Even on 25man the adds are mostly pulled aside and killed by whoever aggroed it, multidotting (which can be done on 10man aswell) isn't a valid argument as there is no diff in things there, if anything the add health makes it easyer on 10man (see paragraph above). And in the last phase you can ignore adds even if you are stacked, just dont aoe them and zerg the boss with heroism.

Tanks getting more vengence is because everything the boss does is also doing more dmg, thereby making it harder for healers and puts a higher gear requirement on the tanks, thereby needing more healers and the tanks and healer(s) have to focus on survivial more instead of being able to focus on dpsing more. (garrosh hc has even been solo healed, so a regular 10man guild should be able to pull solohealing of on normal). This adds yet another dps to 10mans, making the (allready lower as you pointed out yourself) dps requirement per person shrink even more.

There are way more 10man guilds then 25man guild due to the organisation and hardware requirements (25 gets more lag due to a truckload of combatlog entries and flashy effects, before i updated my pc i had to play on "fair" in DS on ultraxion onwards, in the 10man altruns i could play with "good" and had less lag.) Due to this lower effort (to form the raidgroup and manage it) it is more accesable to the masses, hence more ppl of different skill levels attempt it.

[Mctriple]

My guild had to kill Garrosh on 10-man first, since we were bad in 25-man. We failed hard on it for a while, and then we 2- or 3-shot it in 10-man mode. I think the difference in success % between the two is more a sign of something that's already been acknowledged - 25-mans tend to be a bit more hardcore. I'm not saying that 10-mans are for casuals, but the casuals tend to be in 10-mans rather than 25's, so that shifts the average of 10-mans a bit.

[Deleted]

Well according to wowprogress it seems like 25 man HC is a different fight than 10 man HC. Losing a guy or failing in 10 man seems more devastating. Also the different abilities mentioned in the thread differs ofc and some of em seem harder in 10 man.

But perhaps there is more hardcore/ skilled 25 mans out there than 10 mans. Although I choose not to believe that.

It's most likely the later.

Lei Shen was harder on 25m and there were still more 25m guilds that killed it on heroic in the start.

[Deleted]

Killed this boss 3 times in 10 man and once in 25 because it is significantly easier in 10 man. Of our 25 man group who got the kill 21 already had a kill in 10 man The main problem is not allowing the adds to get empowered with all the cloaks proccing is not easy. The only mechanic that i have found to be noticeably more difficult in 10 was dealing with the annihilate in the intermission phases, which is much more difficult for healers in 10 if someone doesn't pick up the buff.

[nightfalls]

Conclusion

Since, again, Blizzard does not "buff" fights after release, the best way to balance this fight in my opinion is to nerf the 10 man side. Based on my perceptions the change I would suggest is to simply halve the number of Minions that spawn from empowered whirling corruption, and double their hit points to compensate. Even though I feel boss health, MCs, and weapons are easier to deal with on 25, I think giving 10m guilds more time on the boss and making it easier to regroup after empowered whirling corruption will help tremendously. Is that too much of a nerf? I'm afraid Blizzard will just do the lazy thing and say "10% less boss health on 10m" or something.

I'm looking for discussion and not flames about the formats. I'm not whining for a nerf here because lets face it, given the numbers of 10m kills vs 25m kills, even at the heroic level, a nerf is most certainly coming. I just wonder what would be the most fair nerf to give the encounter.

I may agree that 10m heroic Garrosh is slightly harder than 25m heroic Garrosh based on statistical evidence (for instance, there are four US guilds that have killed it on 25H versus zero on 10H). But my sympathy for the 10m whining is limited given that 25m has, in general, had harder bosses and steeper coordination checks - significantly - and this was before 10m and 25m rankings were separated in most people's minds (that is, on WowProgress and as concluded after Lei Shen, partly because of Paragon's switch to 10).

Hence I do not think 10m needs a significant nerf.

The other issue is that 10 man raids gear more slowly in general (due to loot RNG and less loot exacerbating that) but experience suggests that once the gear is obtained by most of a group's raiders, those item level increases will proportionally make 10m a lot easier than 25m. In short, gear for gear, ilvl for ilvl, 10m falls to "outgearing" way, WAY more easily.


Even if for World First (West only since Asia just has different 25/10 completely) and US First guilds 25m might be easier than 10m, I'm willing to bet in a few months 10m will be much easier. Nerfing it now will just spit on 25m even more later on.

[Deleted]

You obviously don't know how to math.
[...]

How the hell did you come up with two specific people being MC'd having a higher probability than one specific person being MC'd? Rofl.

His math was indeed incorrect (as has been stated before, it's 1/28 for 2 healers to become MCed in 10m), but you're lacking reading skills:
He (incorrectly) wrote that it's 1/8 for both healers and 1/4 for every single person... 1/8 is definately not higher than 1/4... Rofl.

[Hallu]

Players in 10mans have to take more personal responsibility because they need to deal with for example killing the engineers alone

The engineers have so little health on 10m that I had absolutely no issues killing it alone as a BM Hunter without my pet in 543 ilvl. Think that says enough.

[Ailylia]

Due to the lower HP on the adds in 10 man they are far more easily eliminated before they ever become a threat, and even multiple empowers still leave them at low enough HP to almost oneshot by any DPS. There's more space to spread out in 10 man to keep the adds controlled, and the whirling corruption is easier to handle due to less chance of adds hitting down at random positions (easier to coordinate the line between 8 people than 23).

Which is correct until you get the 3rd intermission phase right after empowered corruption goes off so there's not enough time to deal with the adds before you get sucked in. What this creates is that all the adds group up when you come out of intermission, and then you have 6 seconds until the next desecrated weapon and 4 seconds after that for the next Touch of Y'shaarj.

Basically, utter chaos if you don't push garrosh to 10% before he gets to the third intermission.

So, groups with > 60% percentile dps on 10 man should never have to deal with that situation and the fight seems easy. Groups below that line will struggle greatly at that point. But here's the kicker, Blizzard has stated time and time again that they want normal modes to be more about dealing with mechanics than beating a beserk timer requiring hard dps check. However, with 8 adds spawning from whirling corruption, Garrosh feels like it has a hard dps check and that dps check is rather high.

I realize discussing difficulty between 10 and 25 is maybe counter productive and maybe should leave the 25 man comparison out and instead just try to analyze why the average 10 man guild struggles so hard against this fight. I don't feel it is a matter of bad players, but I think the gear check is too high for a normal mode fight because of this seemingly soft enrage mechanic. I do not believe Blizzard intends for a third intermission to be a soft enrage, but for 10 man guilds, it seems to often be (unless you're really, really close to pushing him by that time). However, by creating this thread as a 10v25 I've evoked emotional response because understandably, neither side likes to be marginalized. I understand that. But please try to discuss with facts and not feelings.

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The engineers have so little health on 10m that I had absolutely no issues killing it alone as a BM Hunter without my pet in 543 ilvl. Think that says enough.

Nobody really cares about phase 1, it doesn't matter.

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His math was indeed incorrect (as has been stated before, it's 1/28 for 2 healers to become MCed in 10m), but you're lacking reading skills:
He (incorrectly) wrote that it's 1/8 for both healers and 1/4 for every single person... 1/8 is definately not higher than 1/4... Rofl.

Yes I admitted the math was bad but I left it up so people wouldn't be confused farther down the thread when people were correcting it. Either way, I've dropped the argument about MCs and I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is and why some people think 10 man is easier.


TLDR - I think the entire problem is if you have enough DPS to push 10% before a third intermission, then 10 man is easier than 25. However if you don't it's very difficult to deal with the empowered adds at this time. But for a NORMAL mode fight there shouldn't be a soft enrage mechanic that requires a high (>60th percentile) overall dps to deal with.

To examine this further I went to World of Logs and grabbed this information:



The graph on the left are 25 man successful kills. The graph on the right are 10 man successful kills. Both normal mode.

That giant cliff you see at about 620 seconds? That's the indication of the third intermission phase. On the videos I watch 3rd intermission happens at 570 seconds, giving these guilds about 50 seconds to burn down the final 30%. (10% at transition +20% heal). Since that's where most guilds use heroism it makes sense.

The thing to note on this graph is what I'm saying, if you look at the 25m version not making the third intermission seems to be less of a guaranteed wipe than it does in 10 man. Even though the drop-of is still severe, it is markedly less severe than in 10 man. In 10 man, it is virtually a guaranteed wipe. I think in either case, this is caused by whirling corruption adds that come out just before the intermission.

[Strafir]

I'm sorry but what you're asking for is not objective, it's opinion. Any time the 10 v 25 debate comes up many people jump in with thoughts like yours, but the problem is feelings can't be measured. And don't worry, I don't blame you for it, its human nature. 25 man raiders will always believe that 25 man is harder because they don't want to feel marginalized, and 10 man raiders the same. Neither side is right or wrong about how they feel. But feelings don't matter here, what matters is objectivity. You cannot cite '25 man lag' as a difficulty factor in which balance should be judged in the same way that Australian guilds can't claim that their higher ping times due to geography should be taken into account.

It's downright disrespectful of you to think I have some kind of bias against either mode, especially since I clearly mentioned that I have dealt with both. I already said that the statistical evidence you're looking for will get you no where, because the encounter is exactly the same in both modes, the only difference is that in 10man raids suffer from player incompetence in fulfilling some task and 25mans suffer from horrendous framerate issues which neither can be measured by a calculator.

If someone truly wants an answer questions like OPs, you need to play both and evaluate.

The 25man raiding scene has gotten so tiny during MOP so I feel quite comfortable in saying that encounters haven't been designed around the idea of 25 players for quite some time which means that in most cases encounters will generally be easier for 25man since it has simply been scaled upward and you can overrun alot of things. That being said, there are exceptions like Malkorok and Garrosh where the increase in players is more of a curse than anything else.

[Stommped]

If empowered, even worse, as we have fewer pure interrupts on 10m than on 25.

Explain to me how this has any relevance whatsoever? You mean to tell me there's a 10 man out there that doesn't have at least two separate interrupts (or even 4 in case those 2 people get MCed)? If anything, this is MORE difficult for 25m because you have to coordinate interrupting 4 people (i.e. you're more likely to have multiple people kick the same person while someone remains untouched).

[Dracodraco]

Dealing with the third intermission wall of adds is just as difficult, if not more so in 25 man. Remember, desecrate weapon takes up the same amount of space between the two difficulties (leaving less space for adds in 25), and you have double the amount of MC's that needs to be controlled, but people have to be spread due to the adds :3.

[Deleted]

10-man isn't == to 25-man.
I mean how many thread you have read ?
We have problem with immerseus 10-man...? 2nd boss? 3rd boss etc etc and how many with 25-man.

10-man yes they have plenty of hardcore raider's but aswell more casuals.
25-man in order 2 keep up raiding as a 25-man must simply...be at least semi-hardcore.

[Ailylia]

It's downright disrespectful of you to think I have some kind of bias against either mode, especially since I clearly mentioned that I have dealt with both.

No, it's not. You have a bias. I have a bias. EVERYONE has a bias. That's why you can't ever judge things based on how you "feel" about them. You may "feel" that one thing is better than another, based on your subjective feelings. That's called anecdotal evidence. That's not science.

Everyone has a bias. This isn't an insult. You may even think you can suppress your bias but you can't. This is why researchers do thing like blind studies where they don't tell the data gatherers what they are studying to sanitize the data as much as possible from bias.

Data has bias. If you don't believe me, read the classic "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff. This is why in science, even after all consideration is taken to remove bias from scientific studies, there is still peer review. Numbers are published raw, and people can run their own analysis on it.

This is why in every attempt I've made to study the challenges this encounter has I've made an effort to detail where I got my information from. I did this so people would analyze the same data and be able to call me out if I'm wrong using things like math and evidence rather than feelings. This has already happened, I did the math wrong on the Mind Control thing and henceforth completely dropped that argument. (even though, people not bothering to read the thread keep latching on to it, oh well).

Playing both and evaluating would get me nothing but anecdotal evidence. Using data from world of logs and wowprogress and raidbots, is an attempt to get a non-biased look at the problem.

There are of course qualifiers and thats what I was really looking for. 25 mans shifting to 10 to complete the encounter is one that skews the data. It's impossible to know how often this happens, or the details. All we can do is have a discussion, which we are having, and it has been helpful.

I still think its odd that 10 man has the same number of adds as 25. But here's the thing, in discussing that problem, it led me to the idea that its not really a big deal for either format, that is, until the third intermission. I've posted that I think the third intermission is a big problem for both formats and is pretty much an early soft enrage for the encounter. I'm pretty sure that its an unintended soft enrage since the beserk timer is like 14 minutes or something, and Blizzard has stated multiple times that they do not wish to enforce tight enrage timers on Normal modes.

However, I also posted data that I think beating the soft enrage is slightly easier for 25. And also its more likely that a 25 survives the soft enrage and wins anyway. I posted graphs from a trusted source. If you want to refute those, that's fine. But honestly, I don't feel the difference is significant anymore.

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Explain to me how this has any relevance whatsoever? You mean to tell me there's a 10 man out there that doesn't have at least two separate interrupts (or even 4 in case those 2 people get MCed)? If anything, this is MORE difficult for 25m because you have to coordinate interrupting 4 people (i.e. you're more likely to have multiple people kick the same person while someone remains untouched).

I've already dropped the MC argument. Please read the thread.

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Dealing with the third intermission wall of adds is just as difficult, if not more so in 25 man. Remember, desecrate weapon takes up the same amount of space between the two difficulties (leaving less space for adds in 25), and you have double the amount of MC's that needs to be controlled, but people have to be spread due to the adds :3.

I understand how that feels more chaotic on the 25 side, however the data suggests its more of a hard enrage on 10 than it is on 25. Though that could be explained by a larger statistical spread in phase 1, I don't have access to that kind of data. Still, I think 25 or 10, its an unintended soft enrage.

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10-man isn't == to 25-man.
I mean how many thread you have read ?
We have problem with immerseus 10-man...? 2nd boss? 3rd boss etc etc and how many with 25-man.

10-man yes they have plenty of hardcore raider's but aswell more casuals.
25-man in order 2 keep up raiding as a 25-man must simply...be at least semi-hardcore.

I am not talking about anything in general, I was talking about a statistically significant difference in a single encounter and trying to explore why. I am not trying to insinuate that one format is "better" than another.

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[Hyve]

Previous mind control mechanics have been coded to never mind control more than a certain number of healers, I assume this is the same I've never seen more than 2 healers mind controlled on 25.

I've two-healed Garrosh 10 Man, and both myself and our other healer were controlled.

[nightfalls]

I've two-healed Garrosh 10 Man, and both myself and our other healer were controlled.

Ok, boo hoo? It takes a second to break you out, compare this to 5 healers getting Huddle (and you are unable to break it) on Sha of Fear, on 25m, which will guaranteed last the entire duration.

[Snuglz]

It is honestly just a mixture of both. There are casual/semi-hardcore/hardcore alike in both 10 and 25mans.

Obviously 10mans would be easier to put together for a guild than a 25m so yes the number would go down b/c there are flat out more 10man guilds than 25m guilds.

The 10man obviously have their own challenges with alot more dependance on personal responsibility and if you lose a person it is very intense to get them back up or it could mess the whole attempt up whereas 25m can lose a few people and it is not so bad. In the same token if you are able to form a 25m than you should have an advantage to use those number of player to ur advantage with more CDs/utility/etc.