LFR FIX - make it 10 man

[Ailylia]

Also, I love when people qq about the DPS on lfr. The fact is that at any given time the majority of players are meeting or exceeding the average DPS the fights are balanced for.

LFR Needs a mendoza line. When a fight ends, even if its a win, if you are below the Mendoza line for performance, you get no loot, you are kicked from the raid automatically, and given a deserter debuff. But make it low enough where people who are honestly trying will always exceed the mendoza line.

Maybe that's a terrible idea, I don't know, I don't do LFR. But the majority of complaints I see are about people going in and lolafk during the fights.

[bals]

Actually you have to think a bit:
When there is need for tanks they will show up
Make it 50 man raid with 1 tank and you will have even bigger tank shortage as nobody will bother to gear the spec in first place because "its only 1 needed someone else will do it"

That's not the reason there is a tank shortage.

OP, terrible idea. would need even more tanks. queue times would skyrocket.

[Gheld]

LFR Needs a mendoza line. When a fight ends, even if its a win, if you are below the Mendoza line for performance, you get no loot, you are kicked from the raid automatically, and given a deserter debuff. But make it low enough where people who are honestly trying will always exceed the mendoza line.

Maybe that's a terrible idea, I don't know, I don't do LFR. But the majority of complaints I see are about people going in and lolafk during the fights.

Except that on Malkorok I'd rather have somebody who stands in purple puddles than somebody who has higher dps.

I'd rather have somebody who dispels on protectors than had high HPS.

And in my experience the people who cry about DPS performance on lfr are in 540+ I level and barely push past 100kdps. Which is about 90% more pathetic than doing 50k DPS with 496ilevel without any gems or enchants.

In psychology that's called projection.

[Raelbo]

Sorry Pyrophobia, but in spite of your reasoning, overall I agree with the majority of posters here: It would be a terrible idea.

One of the huge advantages of going 25 man over 10 man is that statistics start to work with you. The bigger the raid, the more performance moves towards the statistical mean, and the easier it is to make a system that works.

For example, assuming 10% of the LFR population AFK's, the probability of getting 20% of raid afk, ie 5 in 25 man (5.6%) is a lot less than the probability of getting 2 afkers in 10 man (40.4%).

Yes the odds of getting a good group in a 10 man setup is much better, but the odds of getting a terrible group is also much greater. It is far better to have predictable performance across a large number of LFRs than have it go between extremes.

[Hottage]

I think more individual responsibility is the last thing a large percentage of LFR DPS need if you want LFRs to continue not being a complete wipefest.

[Paulosio]

Wouldn't help things. It would make que times far longer than they are now because a 10 player raid will still need 2 tanks and there are already too few tanks for all the dps that are queing.

It would also probably lead to more failure because in a 10 player group you are less able to carry bad players. Sure you can just continuously replace those bad players via vote kick but that's just going to lead to time delays and frustration.

It would also be bad for the players who are getting kicked all the time.. That in turn wont be good for sub numbers because who's going to want to play a game and then be basically ostracised from doing the parts of the game you want. You can say "well they should just learn to be better" but some people just aren't that good and even reading guides wont fix that.

[Yunru]

It would love this idea. All you need to do is to change the need for 1 tank and 1 healer only.

[brirrspliff]

TThe biggest problem of LFR 25 man is the people that hide behind everyone else and do nothing or underperform a lot.

and that will TOTALLY change if there are only 9 other people to hide behind. sure.

[lunchbox2042]

They should make it 40 man with 9 healers, 2 tanks and 29 dps instead.

[Gheld]

They should make it 40 man with 9 healers, 2 tanks and 29 dps instead.

That would melt a lot of people's computers.

[valax]

BAD idea .. more tanks needed to make many groups, dps queues will be 2X longer, 1 dead might mean a wipe

[bals]

Except that on Malkorok I'd rather have somebody who stands in purple puddles than somebody who has higher dps.

I'd rather have somebody who dispels on protectors than had high HPS.

In my experience, those are the same people.

[saucywench]

'Cause right now, for 25-man, you're not already waiting forever for 2 tanks.

Exactly this. Changing 25man to 10man you realize you just doubled the amount of tanks needed when we are tank deprived as it is?
The workaround would be allowing other classes to tank or designing lfrs to not require a tanking class.

[Gheld]

I think more individual responsibility is the last thing a large percentage of LFR DPS need if you want LFRs to continue not being a complete wipefest.

Where's this so called complete wipefest? Am I hopping into the wrong que?

I wasn't aware that the occasional wipe was a wipefest.

You should try progression raiding. If you think lfr is a wipefest, fasten your seat belt.

[Espe]

Blizzard has stated over and over again that 10m LFR would not work because 10m raiding has a higher executional requirement than 25m. They are totally different styles of raiding. If you want to zerg the boss with near strangers for more drops per person with several battle rezes as a crutch, you coast in 25m. If you want personal responsibility and a chance to actually tackle challenging content and earn your progression, you go 10m.

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.

So clearly 10m LFR will never happen.

[saucywench]

Well that's the idea of the Game isn't it. You wipe for a reason and then you learn yourself or someone tells you the mistake you make. And you fix it.
Where if you don't want to learn you get kicked unlike the curent 25 mechanics where it will neither be someone to see your mistake or tell you about it. And in the small ocasions you get kicked for it it will be after too many wipes already.
If it's a wipe free enviroment. Make it an ingame cut scene and after you watch it get the gear in your mailbox.

- - - Updated - - -



Like you said the problem is not the system it's the players.
But those players in 25 man get away with it. AFK in the shadows and never learn.
In order to teach those ppl you need to change something and in my opinion it's the amount of ppl

.......... Big groups let individuals get out of the spot light much easier .......

Make LFR 10 man and problems will shine and ppl will react to them and fix them.

In the long term it will fix the Queue times where right now they are only slowly becoming longer and longer

So, you change it to 10man, run the risk of having 6 dps phoning it in and now have longer queue times because you just doubled the need for more tanks, how does that change anything? Having afkers is an offshoot of the lfr design, everyone is aware of it, you can make raids any reasonably size group and it still wont change the afk dynamic. You're dealing with a group of strangers who feel no compulsion to perform because they have nothing to loose by not. Implementing a 1-2 day ban may help weed out the bad apples from the system but ultimately lfr is largely succeeding only in stopping people from queing.

[Gheld]

Here's a real LFR fix:

GM's will monitor the dialogue in every LFR run. When a player starts acting like an LFR hero, they will check off a checkbox for that player which causes their combat log to fill with false readouts that tell them everyone is doing the exact same dps, hps, dispels, interrupts, etc.

EDIT: Oh, and any player caught giving constructive feedback/advice gets a free warforged seal (directly out of one of the complainers stash).

[Arbs]

Why not just make LFR a Demo with limited Bosses & a glismp at what the raid holds, each week bosses changes, but you never get to kill the final boss.

Give people a reason to want to get better & get into Flex & kill the final boss.

[Bigbamboozal]

Retarded idea, the dps queues are already an hour + for alot of people, would be more than double if it was 10 man

No it's not. It's a great idea, it just needs a bit of work, like your responses.

[Pyrophobia]

........ What if we don't change LFR from 25 to 10 but instead add 2 different queues a 25 and a 10 one. Sign up for one you like.

I can bet that all the descent players etc will move to signing up for 10 even with double the queue, because they will be able to easily deal with low geared low skilled players by teaching them or removing them if they fail over and over again. It will be the choise for ppl that like to learn aswell and that search to meet new ppl.

That will be accepted way easier and the ppl that afk in 25 will have no reason to cry as 25 will still exist only that it will stop working because of lack of ppl to carry the afk-ers

OP just explained what Flex is for. But obviously you don't want to go through the hassle of inviting ppl. However you also don't want underperforming ppl.

Plus: Blizzard pretty much used your arguments to say whey LFR is 25 man and not 10 man. 3 nabs dead in 25 man...not a problem. The same 3 nabs dead in a 10 man...problem.

3 mans dead in 25 equal 1.2 ppl in 10 man and 10 man can still cary that in normal in flex and probably can carry 2-3 in LFR problem is in 25 not 3 ppl die but 9 and nobody bothers to remember if those 9 are the same as the previous 9 that died on the previous boss and when they do ... it will take quite some time to revew 9 ppl mistakes explain them or replace them ....... 1 by 1 and then wait for 9 more ppl slowing the raid way more than similar in ratio situation in 10 man. 2 -3 ppl mistaking there will be revewed way easier because it's move visible and the explaining will be more social or the replacement much faster

Virtualy 25 holds no reason for ppl not to fail as there is lack of punishment. And when there is lack of punishment you attract ppl that abuse it.