Is Askmrrobot full of shit?

[epLe]

Sims and AMR is like going to school, just theoretical statistics or calculations.

Then using the character in a raid, is like going to work - and learning that everything you learned in school was a waste of time.

Theory and how thing actually plays out in reality - is usually two very different things.

Focusing on sims, or addons to babysit procs and similar, only deteriorate your focus from the things that matter (avoiding fire etc).

Trying out different stat reforges and looking at own logs gives way better understanding than asking any websites.

[Kapaya]

If I'm not misstaken, doesn't askmrrobot do that if you are playing with Unholy Blight instead of Plague Leech?

Edit: Nvm, saw that you are using PL. An armory link would be cool, cause honestly, never had that problem myself.

[SoundOfGuns]

I may be wrong but I stopped taking advice from AMR when it began to tell me to go 1-2% under the hit cap on several of my characters.

Yea, i noticed that too. It seems to be convinced that having more hit or... uh... that other stat i dont know in english is worse than having less, which is not true. Having more may be a waste, having less means you lose DPS even if you just have 0,X% miss-chance.

[Spiralphoenix]

Yea, i noticed that too. It seems to be convinced that having more hit or... uh... that other stat i dont know in english is worse than having less, which is not true. Having more may be a waste, having less means you lose DPS even if you just have 0,X% miss-chance.

And it calculated that having less, and the DPS lost from having less, is less than the DPS gained by having the other secondary stats that you gained by having less. Again, hit/expertise are not these magic stats that make your DPS perfect when they're capped. It has a weight like anything else, a value per point. If the weight of the amount under the cap you are is less than the weight of the secondary stat you gain, it's optimal to not be capped.

[Rho]

AMR is awesome....but its only as good as the data you give it.....the default settings on AMR have to be something that can work for a lot of people, but not necessarily you. But if you tell it what you want , it will give you a near perfrct setup every time.

A thousand times this ^.

What you need to do is run YOUR character through Simcraft, using a setup that comes as close as possible to your usual raid comps, and input those weights into AMR.
Voila! Perfect itemization strategy.

[Terridon]

I see most of the people that gives reason for why they stopped using askmrrobot, being clueless about it actually being right.
Not that it's perfect. Specially not the stuff it added for RoRo. It can't calculate that all the time, despite it being checked off.
Using catus for it, but apart from that i haven't had any real issues with it.

Edit:
Just adding that the people i talked about wasn't specifically pointed towards posters in this thread :P

[Deleted]

I have a DK, mage, paladin, druid, hunter, monk... yada yada... and so far AMR helped me with them very well (especialy in the monk case where i tend to exeperiment a lot with brewmaster), you just have to know how to work with it, because its like... well.. a calculator.

From what i read so far i see that people who dont understand how to use AskMrRobot talk against it...
At first i was like that too - i had no idea why that calculator gives me so wrong reforgings and gemings. But then one day i decided to dig deeper in it. Found diffrent options and shizzles to adjust to my chars to help me choose witch peice of gear i want most, i understood why the reforges and gemmings he show me are good.
People are just "lezy" to work theyr brains why sometimes going under the hit cap with like 0,02% is worth it or why geming expertize as caster is good too.

Overall as some people said before me AMR is very good calculator worth for min-maxing stats and shizzles and for those who dont know yet - AMR work in combination with SimC. Knowing how to work with both of them can give u very nice char optimisation. Not knowing how to do it lead only to misunderstanding and raging against it :P

[thedingleberry]

Did you run a simulation in order to get the weights to punch into AMR? Usually the default builds in AMR are decent, but not optimal.

[Raiju]

I stopped using Askmrrobot when across 3 classes it was saying thunderforged versions of the same item were 500-1000 dps decrease.

[Spiralphoenix]

I stopped using Askmrrobot when across 3 classes it was saying thunderforged versions of the same item were 500-1000 dps decrease.

Except AMR doesn't actually calculate DPS, so.... that might be your issue.

[potatoe]

I stopped using Askmrrobot when across 3 classes it was saying thunderforged versions of the same item were 500-1000 dps decrease.

"the number is not your DPS, though as your score goes up, in theory your DPS does too."
via
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=5110.0

[Spiralphoenix]

"the number is not your DPS, though as your score goes up, in theory your DPS does too."
via
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=5110.0

Except if you do something like change your stat weights, which is what that number originates from. For example, if you go and divide all your stat weights by 10, your reforging and gemming will be exactly the same, because the weights are all the same relative to each other, and that number will go way, way down. Because all it is your totaled, multiplied out stat weights (agi_weight * total_agi + crit_weight * total_crit + ....).

To the user, it's pretty much a meaningless number.

[Deleted]

I stopped using Askmrrobot when across 3 classes it was saying thunderforged versions of the same item were 500-1000 dps decrease.

This. Is. Just. IMPOSSIBRU! :P
Not wanna be the "smart ass", but have u looked why it is like so?(but seems you havent) Like - was those TF items an offpieces, because if its so they were propably a dps loss due to losing set bonus is the most common thing i was facing when i am using it. Also keep in mind that items rankings in AMR are a bit tricky because of the mentioned set bonuses. Also keep in mind that AMR have an option in the item ranking menu to show the rankings "Relative" to your current gear. If u havent checked that option you might also see some really stupid reforgings/gemings in the said menu

[SodiumChloride]

Heh. Half of the people here complaining about AMR seem to misunderstand how it works.

Can't really blame Blizzard if they decide to "dumb down" the game further now can we.

[epLe]

Can't really blame Blizzard if they decide to "dumb down" the game further now can we.

There isn't much left to dumb down, but removing reforging and combatlogs/meters would help alot to make the focus shift onto what matters.

[Deleted]

I stopped using Askmrrobot when across 3 classes it was saying thunderforged versions of the same item were 500-1000 dps decrease.

Thats probably because it knows your amount of VP. If your 2/2 upgraded (+8 ilvl) 522 ilvl item (= effectively 530 ilvl) is replaced by a 0/2 upgraded (+0 ilvl) 528 ilvl item it is indeed a DPS loss. You need to tell it manually your 528 ilvl item is also 2/2 upgraded (= effectively 536 ilvl).

[Kelimbror]

There isn't much left to dumb down, but removing reforging and combatlogs/meters would help alot to make the focus shift onto what matters.

Unfortunately the design of these new raids proves that numbers matter a lot. Especially with how Flex scaling works, you need to know who isn't pulling DPS weight versus the health they put up. If you took that out, there would be a lot of failing without knowing specifically why. Sure there are some caveats that go with it, but it's much more beneficial to have that information. If they removed damage meters and combat logging, the game would have to be nerfed into the ground.

I'm not a math whiz, but it seems a lot of people are using AMR without any knowledge of game mechanics. I may not know much, but some of these things are like entry level knowledge of the website and/or WoW. AMR has good math and even used as a general guide for gearing for LFR/Flex will result in a higher performance than you likely do on your own. It's sites like Noxxic that give you mostly crap information.

[Raiju]

"the number is not your DPS, though as your score goes up, in theory your DPS does too."
via
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=5110.0

So how does the EXACT item Thunderforged (5.2 btw, no VP upgrading involved) get a lower score?

Thats probably because it knows your amount of VP. If your 2/2 upgraded (+8 ilvl) 522 ilvl item (= effectively 530 ilvl) is replaced by a 0/2 upgraded (+0 ilvl) 528 ilvl item it is indeed a DPS loss. You need to tell it manually your 528 ilvl item is also 2/2 upgraded (= effectively 536 ilvl).

No. This was 5.2 so no upgrading system involved, even in 5.3 I was VP capped..?

This. Is. Just. IMPOSSIBRU! :P
Not wanna be the "smart ass", but have u looked why it is like so?(but seems you havent) Like - was those TF items an offpieces, because if its so they were propably a dps loss due to losing set bonus is the most common thing i was facing when i am using it. Also keep in mind that items rankings in AMR are a bit tricky because of the mentioned set bonuses. Also keep in mind that AMR have an option in the item ranking menu to show the rankings "Relative" to your current gear. If u havent checked that option you might also see some really stupid reforgings/gemings in the said menu

Yes, I know all this. It seems more like you didn't read my post than I didn't look (my GM lives off AMR and couldn't explain it). It was *THE SAME* item. No offpiece shit going on as both were off pieces to begin with. I also known the difference between absolute and relative (at the time it did this for relative - which is even worse a bug IMO).

I misunderstood the score increase as dps though, yes. This doesn't answer why it was failing though.

[Vladimeir]

So how does the EXACT item Thunderforged (5.2 btw, no VP upgrading involved) get a lower score?

Probably relats to reforging and hit/expertise values. AMR doesn't automatically change the reforge in some circumstances. Here you also have to take into account relative and absolute values of gear.

1) The item had hit stats on it and as you upgraded to thunderforged, more of the hit got wasted resulting in a lower score. This in combination with stat weights and reforges can cause weird things to happen if you missed it.

Say for example you are just under the cap with no reforges on a normal item. You upgrade to thunderforged and suddenly you are slightly over cap and have to reforge to a lesser stat. putting you back under the hit cap. Hits value stays at a higher level than the new stat you reforged to because you are under the cap. The item is now "absolutely" worth less than it was before the reforge. (Because its looking at the higher level of hit on the normal piece compared to the lesser value on the thunderforged)

2) Possibly didn't change the reforge and extra stats just flat out got wasted and again, the absolute value > relative value.

[Deleted]

Probably relats to reforging and hit/expertise values. AMR doesn't automatically change the reforge in some circumstances. Here you also have to take into account relative and absolute values of gear.

1) The item had hit stats on it and as you upgraded to thunderforged, more of the hit got wasted resulting in a lower score. This in combination with stat weights and reforges can cause weird things to happen if you missed it.

Say for example you are just under the cap with no reforges on a normal item. You upgrade to thunderforged and suddenly you are slightly over cap and have to reforge to a lesser stat. putting you back under the hit cap. Hits value stays at a higher level than the new stat you reforged to because you are under the cap. The item is now "absolutely" worth less than it was before the reforge. (Because its looking at the higher level of hit on the normal piece compared to the lesser value on the thunderforged)

2) Possibly didn't change the reforge and extra stats just flat out got wasted and again, the absolute value > relative value.

Yeah I was thinking about that as well, but I couldn't think of an example because in the end the TF item gives either slightly more procs or stronger procs or more stats. You can leave the rest as it is.

Still, its a plausible explanation. 500-1000 DPS difference is rather minor in our current patches.