Lets be honest, WoW's in its current state is...

[Kagecamia]

Ok a few things regarding a few similar statements in this thread.

Didn't every naysayer popped up when Blizz released info about MoP? A lot of people said it was a terrible theme and it would ruin the game. Didn't MoP have some of the most interesting raids in the game (ToT, SoO; Different strokes for different folks)?

People will play it (being the new expac) but the subs will still go down. Just look at MoP. Gave a nice boost of subs at the beginning but it still went down. Was it dailies, age of the game, age of the playerbase (more adult= less time for videogames)? Who knows? Only Blizz does and if they are any sort of business that wants to stay afloat, they should focus on that problem rather than throwing more money and content out too quickly.

Personally I think it is too early for another expac. Haven't we only been in Pandaria for a little over a year?

And my last issue I have with the OP: can we please for the love of all god STOP making thread titles where.........

people fucking bait and hook for views?

[Coldhearth]

Yeah mate how WoW ever acquired it's substantial player base is a mystery. TBC was the golden age of sub growth and probably the most unfriendly xpac if you were not raiding.

WoTLK was when subs exploded. At the very, very, VERY end of BC they started offering the free trial accounts. The game then grew to over 12 million players in it's peak during WoTLK.

[Kagecamia]

OP will probably get flamed, but a very valid point is raised.

Leveling is way too quick and easy. People hit 90 with absolutely NO IDEA how to play their class. Then they get spoonfed easy content like the current "heroics" and LFR. Then these players get bored due to a lack of stimulation and subs drop off.

Not saying leveling should be brutally difficult, but it needs some kind of challenge. It needs to be a memorable experience, not 1 shotting mobs and dinging a level every 20 minutes. It's honestly kind of sad in it's current state. Dungeons used to teach CC, letting the tank pull, patience, teamwork, etc. Not anymore.

Oh well, just my 2 cents.

Dungeons and LFR/LFG have become so....dull. It used to require teamwork to take down a boss. Now people just outgear it entirely.Your average WoW player who has limited time wants a fast, quick, and easy method to get gear and make their use out of their 15 bucks each month.

You want the old nostalgic leveling experience where it takes days to level? Play Tera. Hardly any hand holding and kissing of boo-boos in that game. You learn from and early age (level more like it) just how hard shit hits in the game. And if you are a tank, the consequences of missing the elites auto attack...

[Spotnick]

Big surprise there, you got better at this game and can level easily.. who would have thought.

Leveling is something you do for 1 month over multiple years of game time, it doesn't really matter does it? Only rough part about it is when you go with quest greens to new expansion content until you get the gear there, which is going to be removed by item squish obviously, but that lasts like 30 minutes at max. People usually never notice because they have raid gear when they start leveling, but going in Hyjal with Northrend leveling green can make you pretty weak for the first quests.

- - - Updated - - -

OP will probably get flamed, but a very valid point is raised.

Leveling is way too quick and easy. People hit 90 with absolutely NO IDEA how to play their class. Then they get spoonfed easy content like the current "heroics" and LFR. Then these players get bored due to a lack of stimulation and subs drop off.

Not saying leveling should be brutally difficult, but it needs some kind of challenge. It needs to be a memorable experience, not 1 shotting mobs and dinging a level every 20 minutes. It's honestly kind of sad in it's current state. Dungeons used to teach CC, letting the tank pull, patience, teamwork, etc. Not anymore.

Oh well, just my 2 cents.

I truly didn't know how to play my class (Paladin) when I reached level 70 in Burning Crusade, what's your point?

How is that any different now from then?

I had help from people when I joined a guild to improve my game play, but all the time I've been alone leveling, I had zero idea of how to spec and if I was doing things right..

[LeperHerring]

The game in it's current state doesn't have me coming back for more than a couple of months maximum. Why? I'ts cause I can't find anything to fill my time in terms of meaningful progression.

Exactly! There is no progression in the current model. It makes no difference what you do in this patch because the next patch you will get a free ride and free loot anyway. As a result there is no meaningful progression, just continuous free rides and free loot. I just look at the game now and I ask myself: "Why would I want to pay for that?" And the answer is, I wouldn't, which is why I'm not subbed.

What creates a sense of progression is knowing that what you're doing actually counts, because you can't just skip over it in the next patch. It doesn't matter if it's raid, 5 man or solo content. If you know that in order to get to the next 5 man you actually have to clear this one, and to get to the next raid you need to clear all the previous ones, and you know you won't be just handed a free ride and free loot in the next patch, then suddenly the content becomes much more meaningful.

[Zka]

Yeah, leveling is not a bit challenging or interesting anymore.
In the old times (I mean classic and BC) I really had to struggle to find the most effective ways of killing mobs: how to reduce downtime while not impacting dps, increase damage per mana, whatever. Now this is gone.
Also, there were group quests that you either did in a group or put in significant effort to solo. Now this is also gone.
I have even leveled 2 classes (rogue and druid) to 80+ which I haven't ever played before, without looking up ANYTHING on the internet. I have even tried ALL roles on the druid. Guess what, it was mildly interesting but still not challenging, because the leveling content has been stripped of any and all challenges on purpose.
It has turned leveling into a long and boring grind.
Unfortunately, the OP is right. I'm already unsubbed for a reason.

[Pancaspe]

Dear OP,

The more people like you that leave WOW, the better the game will be.

[TriHard]

What gives you the right to say that OP? That is -your- opinion. Not everyone's.

The game is fine completely fine. The raiding in vanilla was horrible. And the only ones that can say that is
the players that actually managed to down all of Naxxramas 40. TBC's raiding was fine but it was pretty linear.

People keep saying these times were the best but it is completely wrong, see all the new features we've gotten from these two times.
Without them WoW would be pretty dull. Besides, both Classic and TBC were unbalanced as hell.

[JNovster]

^This.

Once more I'll say it:

WoW is a video game and unfortunately an online video game at that. Since so many people use it, and its numbers have far exceeded what Blizzard ever expected, they have to do what's best for the masses. Not everything they do is for everyone, but it does its job in trying to do so.

WoW is not for everyone. It has never BEEN for everyone. If it was for EVERYONE, EVERYONE would be playing it, no? EVERYONE who's ever tried it would still be playing it, no?

Move on then. Find another video game. WoW isn't suited for you any longer. Sorry to see you go, but once again I'll say it:

It's a video game.

Wow is a game that we LOVE, we dont want it to be so watered down. Some of us are enthralled by the lore, mechanics, and style of play wow has. We dont like it when that is lacking and easy to overcome!

None of us, im sure, want to leave the first real game we fell in love with... we want to fix it. Just keep that in mind.

[Wheeler]

The game is fine completely fine. The raiding in vanilla was horrible.

Yeah. When we cleared Naxx 40 in Vanilla we were all upset at the horrible experience we just had.

Oh wait, No. We were having the best video game experience that any of us will probably ever have. Obviously this is due to a number of things, most importantly that we were killing the final boss in an INCREDIBLY difficult tier, in the first MMO that a vast majority of us have ever played, with a group of 39 other people scattered across the country/world.

In 2006, the thought of gaming on that scale was still incredibly fresh, and absolutely mind-boggling to those of us whose experience in multiplayer was basically split-screen Goldeneye.

It's a combination of things that have made this game deteriorate over time. Some of it IS Blizzards fault (Not LFR itself, but pressing a button to join a raid with people I'll never see again is pretty lame), and some of it is other things (those people we knew all quitting, and the fact that it's incredibly hard to keep an MMO fresh, when the entire thing is designed around a formula - Get gear, kill bosses, get gear, kill bosses).

I'd love to start fresh in another MMO - I hope everyone who joined far later than I did can find these experiences still, or at least something similar. Here's hoping that WoW's success didn't ruin the innovation of this genre. I fear that it will be the first and last great MMO to ever exist.

[Afrospinach]

WoTLK was when subs exploded. At the very, very, VERY end of BC they started offering the free trial accounts. The game then grew to over 12 million players in it's peak during WoTLK.

From 10 million in TBC, explosion alright. It was at 8 million at the end of vanilla.

[Coldhearth]

I truly didn't know how to play my class (Paladin) when I reached level 70 in Burning Crusade, what's your point?

How is that any different now from then?

I had help from people when I joined a guild to improve my game play, but all the time I've been alone leveling, I had zero idea of how to spec and if I was doing things right..

If you hit 70 in BC and still didn't know how to play your class, that is a you problem. Thanks for proving you are one of the many horrible players.

At least leveling back then taught people a little on how their class works.

These days they just autoattack and then they hit cap, derp their way to free loot in lfr, and bitch about how bored they are.

[Winterstrife]

People who said Vanilla/TBC were the pinnacle of WoW obviously never lead a raid guild back then.
I for once remember what a bitch it was to gear/attune 39 (Vanilla)/24 (TBC) other players (including myself) for raids, I helped them run their dungeons, clear their attunement quests & build up their (fire/poison/frost/shadow, remember this crap?) resist gear only to have the a**holes not turn up for raids, pull a fast one on me & joined their 'friend's guild' who just so happen to be a rival progression guild who are a couple of bosses ahead. Then I have to recruit new guys who need to be geared/attuned again.
If Blizzard held on that with system they had during Vanilla/TBC that 'so many' people enjoyed, I would have quit years ago.

[Wheeler]

People who said Vanilla/TBC were the pinnacle of WoW obviously never lead a raid guild back then.
I for once remember what a bitch it was to gear/attune 39 (Vanilla)/24 (TBC) other players (including myself) for raids, I helped them run their dungeons, clear their attunement quests & build up their (fire/poison/frost/shadow, remember this crap?) resist gear only to have the a**holes not turn up for raids, pull a fast one on me & joined their 'friend's guild' who just so happen to be a rival progression guild who are a couple of bosses ahead. Then I have to recruit new guys who need to be geared/attuned again.
If Blizzard held on that with system they had during Vanilla/TBC that 'so many' people enjoyed, I would have quit years ago.

You must have been stuck in Molten Core, or you're just fabricating something you think would have sucked to bolster your argument. Sure, it was stressful - But it was also fresh and exciting, because nothing else at the time held a candle to the experience.

Also, there wasn't much in the way of "Attunements" in Vanilla that were difficult. Ony and BWL? Those were done easily, and on ones own time.

Also, the gear was incredibly easy to farm outside of Nature Resist, and even that was simply purchased off the AH. Blizzard made Frost Resist gear attainable through Naxx itself, so that was a cakewalk.

[Dazu]

Every expansion except vanilla/original has been easy to gear up. TBC was moderately slow for about 6months of the expansion and then dungeons became mostly AoE grinds provided you got a decent tank around (and yes even warriors could AoE just fine). PvP gear was incredibly good to use in PvE aswell so alot got gear from there to fill in blanks from PvE RNG. Attunements were the big slowdown, and some were overly long for what they should have been (kara, BT come to mind).

If they are standing in a capital city waiting around, that really is burn out. There is alot to do in game now, more so than in vanilla or TBC. Only thing I can think that should be looked at to make the game feel more needed to log in and play in the world alot is gold amount to what we need. When someone like me who just does his normal stuff makes much more than I need to spend on gems/enchants etc and can throw 10-15k gold on a pet for battles/collection means theres a problem. I dont need to farm gold, which takes the need for me to grind etc away. Also more reps which are long slow grinds could be useful, but of a type where its time based not being lucky (Sha Hao for example is part luck due to groups grinding etc)

[Wheeler]

Please don't forget that the game has now boiled down to obsessing about numbers as opposed to items. The entire point of the game is now to get the exact same item with 200 more stat points.

[Dazu]

You must have been stuck in Molten Core, or you're just fabricating something you think would have sucked to bolster your argument. Sure, it was stressful - But it was also fresh and exciting, because nothing else at the time held a candle to the experience.

Also, there wasn't much in the way of "Attunements" in Vanilla that were difficult. Ony and BWL? Those were done easily, and on ones own time.

Also, the gear was incredibly easy to farm outside of Nature Resist, and even that was simply purchased off the AH. Blizzard made Frost Resist gear attainable through Naxx itself, so that was a cakewalk.

Spending many hours total in 5mans farming FR is easily done? It was a pure RNG nightmare in vanilla. I killed the same bosses in BRD 10-15 times before getting 1 item from them, it got so bad we ended with running through about 20 different people over one day (I spent over 12 hours in game that day, almost entirely in BRD except for vendoring/repairs), and I still fell short of the required fire resist for my guilds MC runs (I got in because they were so short on people).

BWL was easy enough attunement, problem was people not knowing if they had done it or not prior to raids, then holding a raid while 5-10 all of sudden realised they hadnt done it yet. Then factor in the Onyxa Cloak problem meaning progress was delayed for so many ony kills before you could continue in BWL. Vanilla was really just a farm/grind though to get into raiding, not overly hard just long or boring.
Edit : I didnt make it to Naxx vanilla so cant comment on that part of vanilla.

Problem with both Vanilla and TBC was poaching of players for other guilds. lower guilds geared/attuned them and then they hopped ship so quick and often it became a problem and guilds disbanded over it. Another big problem was how prized some items were (Dragonspine throphy, Aldori Legacy defender (gruuls shield?)) that people made too much of a deal over them, but there was no real alternatives available. Atleast now there is alternatives available even if a little below BiS.

[Wheeler]

Vanilla was really just a farm/grind though to raid, not overly hard just long or boring.

The team didn't hit their PvE design stride until Naxx. A lot of the mechanics developed and used in that instance are basically copies of just about every fight in-game today.

Mind controls, add control, add priority, void zones, burn phases, positioning phases.

None of this really existed until Naxx. While I'm happy I'm part of the infinitesimal amount that cleared it pre-BC, it's unfortunate that a larger portion of the community doesn't realize how ground-breaking Naxx 1.0 really was at that time in WoW's life. Up until Cata the fights were basically the same mechanics. Now it's just those mechanics + extra action button.

[Winterstrife]

You must have been stuck in Molten Core, or you're just fabricating something you think would have sucked to bolster your argument. Sure, it was stressful - But it was also fresh and exciting, because nothing else at the time held a candle to the experience.

Cleared up till Heigen in Vanilla & Muru in TBC. Of course not much to boast seeing as how the guilds I lead never managed to clear the end bosses while it was the hardest content.
But still I said it was bitch to raid lead back then, but doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed playing Vanilla/TBC, I'm just done with those expansions & never want to see the game go back into that direction.

[ldev]

...is still the best MMORPG out there by far.

end of discussion