Undead Paladins ---> Would it work?

[Grubjuice]

Man you don't even know how tauren paladins work...they are not "nature druids"...which is redundant by the way.

by nature he means solar, as opposed arcane which us lunar. He's merely conlfating Solar=nature, lunar=arcane which is a druid mechanic.
as if Sunwalkers were locked in in peramanent solar eclipse
(it's not accurate of course, i am merely trying to explain his (il)logic)

The tauren have had a religious reformation, it's pure and simple.
Sunwalkers are a new cult based on a reinterpretation of a preexisting faith, just like any reformation.

I liken it to the Akhenaten'sSun Cult in Ancient Egypt.

[zuggie]

For me, it seems like people mistake the difference between being undead and forsaken.

"The Forsaken are a race and faction of undead who broke away from the Scourge and took control of much of the kingdom of Lordaeron, destroyed during the Third War by the death knight Arthas."

And about the "undead paladins being death knights" discussion.
The original death knights weren't paladins at all.. It was bodys of stormwind knights, who had the souls of slain warlocks of the shadow council put into them. These knights were created by the Necromancer Gul'dan. Most of them were slain or turned into Liches.

The playable Death Knight everyone knows, is actually former members of the Scourge and THESE were, primarily, paladins before. Fallen paladins would have their souls twisted, and like any other scourge member, be controled by the will of the Lich King. The playable faction broke free of the Lich King's grasp and gained their own free will.


So to return to the point. Undead paladins CAN exist, but NOT Forsaken (which is the playable race), since they are former members of the Scourge.

[Guyviroth]

--Not smoking anything, although I wish I was.
--Your argument doesn't make sense. Those Undead are not Forsaken. They are Undead, yes. Not Forsaken. You are mistaking the Faction for the... Well, the actual Undead. The Forsaken are the group of Undead who are a part of the Horde. Note: The actual RACE is Undead. When you roll an Undead, you are rolling a FORSAKEN UNDEAD. Many NPCs who you find elsewhere are NOT a part of the Forsaken any longer; They are still Undead, but they are not within the Forsaken. Hence why there are factions such as the Scourge, the Risen, etc. They are all Undead, but they are not Forsaken.
--It's not a hivemind, it's a lifestyle. The Forsaken are those who choose to forsake the light, as they believe the Light has Forsaken them. Hence their name. That is why the Light is rarely, if ever, a thing seen used by Undead. Even if someone survives the incredible amounts of pain caused by mastering it, those around them are those who have FORSAKEN it. All Undead who have chosen to wield the Light have either gone insane and been killed, joined the Scarlet Crusade and were killed, or joined the Argent Crusade. And, since the Forsaken and Argent Crusade are (at best) wary of one another, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that any undead who joins the Argent Crusade (assuming they'd even be let in) would be allowed to return to the Forsaken.



This is what I spoke of. Nature Druids was pretty redundant of a statement for sure, but it still suggests that Tauren Paladins are more similar to Druids than actual Paladins. No Paladin draws power from the Sun, but Tauren Druids draw power from the Moon. It is way more similar to being a Druid.

Forsaken Priest trainers ACTUALLY tell them that their path is forged in corruption and Darkness, but that it is NECESSARY for their kind to learn to use both. That is the case with all Priests. No race of the Alliance advocates the use of the Shadow, and yet every Alliance Priest is taught to use the Shadow. And they will not attack the Argent Crusade because:
1) The Argent Crusade is neutral; If they were to attack the Argent Crusade, both the Alliance and Horde would deem them evil and destroy them.
2) They saw what happened when the Light overpowered even the Lich King himself. Undeath cannot defeat the Light, nor it's warriors.
3) They would be placing themselves in a position to lose even MORE soldiers in a time where raising more is an extremely dangerous endeavor.

Learn a little about politics, pay attention to similarities, and then try and call me out on being wrong. I'm fine with being wrong, but when you can't be assed to make an effort in proving it yourself, I don't want to hear it.

Good, because I grow tired of bantering with someone who can't even grasp simple lore concepts such as Sunwalkers...

[Jessicka]

For me, it seems like people mistake the difference between being undead and forsaken.



And about the "undead paladins being death knights" discussion.
The original death knights weren't paladins at all.. It was bodys of stormwind knights, who had the souls of slain warlocks of the shadow council put into them. These knights were created by the Necromancer Gul'dan. Most of them were slain or turned into Liches.

The playable Death Knight everyone knows, is actually former members of the Scourge and THESE were, primarily, paladins before. Fallen paladins would have their souls twisted, and like any other scourge member, be controled by the will of the Lich King. The playable faction broke free of the Lich King's grasp and gained their own free will.


So to return to the point. Undead paladins CAN exist, but NOT Forsaken (which is the playable race), since they are former members of the Scourge.

So you're arguing that you can have undead Paladins, but not Forsaken Paladins, even though the Valkyr are now raising new people into the Forsaken?

[Tmbryant91]

want to be a UD pally?

download tmorph, inject it and then type .race 5... problem solved.

[zuggie]

I knew Val'kyr would be brought up. But yes, I still argue against it. Paladins have a really strong faith in the light, way stronger than priests. The only reason someone like Sir Seliek was able to remain a paladin, was because his faith was so strong that not even the corruption of Kel'Thuzad was strong enough to turn him into a Death Knight.

Having Val'kyrs bring back paladins as forsaken would not just blow up the war against the horde and the alliance, but I doubt the horde would even support such an action from Sylvanas.

[Deleted]

Undead paladins are deathknights. As palandins paladins tho, no. Light burns the undead.

so why can undead be holy priests then?

[Spotnick]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=30202

They exist already.

[-Superman-]

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=30202

They exist already.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=30202#abilities

Shows they use Avenger's Shield, Hammer of Injustice, and Unholy Light. These would be PERFECT undead versions of the spells. Rely on Shadow, rather than light.

[Aerofluff]

There's only one undead paladin and that's Sir Zeliek.

Thank you for mentioning him.
I actually saw some dude from Wyrmrest Accord the other day trying to tell people on another RP server that they were "bad" for being Undead and using the Holy Light, to keep it short. Was kinda ridiculous, but I guess some people believe that, so here's to put that to rest...

Zarhym actually addressed this in a CDev, mentioning Zeliek:

we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

You can debate exactly how *uncommon* these individuals would be, since I do agree that most Forsaken are despairing and emo as their name implies, but I don't think it should rule out the possibility of a Human Paladin who fell to the Scourge and turned Forsaken. If the act of using the Light is painful to them, why not consider it penance/punishment? It's an entirely plausible concept.

[-Superman-]

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

So technically, according to Lore, everytime a DeathKnight is healed by a Holy Priest or Holy Paladin, they are placed into a crippling pain. Yet they continue to tank in Gameplay without flinching. Hmmm. Maybe, just maybe, GAMEPLAY > LORE since my DK has never fallen to crippling pain when my friends Holy Pally heals him.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

So technically, according to Lore, everytime a DeathKnight is healed by a Holy Priest or Holy Paladin, they are placed into a crippling pain. Yet they continue to tank in Gameplay without flinching. Hmmm. Maybe, just maybe, GAMEPLAY > LORE since my DK has never fallen to crippling pain when my friends Holy Pally heals him.

Death Knights (especially Blood) thrive on pain, others and their own. It's the entire basis of their existence. It's a large part of the starting experience.

And yes, gameplay does trump lore. That's why night elf priests spells aren't moon based, forsaken can be holy/disc, etc, etc. it'd be game breaking for a Forsaken or DK to fall over every time something Light based touched them.

[Deleted]

There is only one undead paladin and that is Zeliak.. All other undeads u see looking paladin like are most likely warriors..

Blues alredy explained why undeads cant become paladins.. A priest wields the light.. A paladin embodies the light.. The priests only manipulate the light hence why undeads can use holy powers even when they are undead(even if it pains them).. A normal undead paladin would burst into flames if he used his powers.. Zeliak is a exception because blizz at that point didnt look into the lore as much as it should..

The "oh my undead dk gets healed y dosent he die" argument is retarded and only used cause people that defend the dumb idea of having undead paladins run out of ideas..

/thread

[Aerofluff]

There is only one undead paladin and that is Zeliak.. All other undeads u see looking paladin like are most likely warriors..

But it's against Forsaken culture to allow someone devoted to the Light to stick around when their people are basically cauterized by the Light.

While there's no confirmation exactly what class he is, might I mention Leonid Barthalomew. While he might not be a paladin himself (or Forsaken, technically), he's the friggin' Argent Commander and constantly surrounded by Light wielders, willingly. It's clearly not that foreign a concept. It comes down to individual preference, pain tolerance, devotion to the Light, etc. It has nothing to do with culture, otherwise why hasn't Sylvanas cast out all the Light-wielding priests in her city?

[Enthusiastic Steward]

There is only one undead paladin and that is Zeliak.. All other undeads u see looking paladin like are most likely warriors..

Blues alredy explained why undeads cant become paladins.. A priest wields the light.. A paladin embodies the light.. The priests only manipulate the light hence why undeads can use holy powers even when they are undead(even if it pains them).. A normal undead paladin would burst into flames if he used his powers.. Zeliak is a exception because blizz at that point didnt look into the lore as much as it should..

The "oh my undead dk gets healed y dosent he die" argument is retarded and only used cause people that defend the dumb idea of having undead paladins run out of ideas..

/thread

Seriously, how many times? How many?

There are tons of Undead Paladins in Tyr's Hand.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=46092#abilities
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=9448#abilities
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=9447#abilities

All former Scarlet Crusade Paladins who retained their holy powers in undeath. So it can be done.

Undead. Paladin abilities. Undead Paladins. /thread

[-Superman-]

Considering they had something like this going for a short while in Wrath with Alliance and Horde Paladins having Seal of the Martyr and Seal of Blood respectively, and chose to remove both, I could see this happening. But they'd still have to be Shadow Paladins, and that's not really the same thing.

Agreed, but all current paladins are only Paladins for gameplay sake. Blood Elves "bend" the light to their will and are actually Blood Paladins, not Holy. Tauren are Sun Walkers, a far stretch from an actual Holy Paladin, but for Gameplay sake, they are a Paladin. The only REAL paladins in the game are Human, Dwarf, and Draenei. I am hoping Blizz finally lifts the lock and gives cause to unlock all race/class combos. If we are going to fight the Burning Legion, and survive, we need all the race/class combos we can get.

- - - Updated - - -

But it would also be pretty silly if we had Human Druids because Gameplay > Lore.

You mean like the human druids in Gilneas who were training druids LONG before being bitten? THOSE human druids?

- - - Updated - - -

Death Knights (especially Blood) thrive on pain, others and their own. It's the entire basis of their existence. It's a large part of the starting experience.

And yes, gameplay does trump lore. That's why night elf priests spells aren't moon based, forsaken can be holy/disc, etc, etc. it'd be game breaking for a Forsaken or DK to fall over every time something Light based touched them.

Precisely. This is why Gameplay trumps Lore. We don't have to chuck lore altogether, but it would be nice to have all race/class combos unlocked for the player's aesthetic benefit.

[Vokal]

It would make more sense than Tauren Paladins.

[Aerofluff]

Because Light-wielding priests in her city will not wield the Light unless absolutely necessary. Priests NEED to wield the light; They don't do so willingly, it is how they balance themselves, else they would not. Priests who follow only the Shadow are evil (The late Archbishop Benedictus); Priests who balance themselves are debatably good or evil, but can be either or.

And Leonid is with the Argent Crusade. He is Undead, yes, but he is not Forsaken. I've already explained this a couple times; Being Undead does not instantly make you Forsaken.

I did specify in my post "While he might not be a paladin himself (or Forsaken, technically)" ... I'm well aware. The point stands that there are plenty of examples of Undead Paladins themselves, and non-Lightwielding Undead who still surround themselves with it, despite it being dangerous/painful for them. There are also priests among the Forsaken who wield the Light all the time, which means it's not a cultural ban against the Light. They may "need to balance themselves," but having one type of Lightwielder around is no more dangerous than another, and they're still obviously useful to the Forsaken.

So with all the flailing aside, I'm still not seeing where the problem lies. The only thing remotely admissible is that there would probably be a lot less Priests/Paladins, due to fewer people being capable of living with that kind of pain and the implications of it, if they had been very devout in life. It's not an impossibility, it's a rarity.

[-Superman-]

Blood Elf Paladins no longer need to bend the Light to their will. They did so until the end of the Sunwell patch. Now they do not, and they are actual Paladins.



Game mechanics. Worgen were taught Druidic arts via the Night Elves, but a trainer was required because skills were not yet learned automatically in Cataclysm. There are no other Worgen Druids until you meet the Night Elves.

So... all the stuff that "broke lore" is now automated through Game mechanics... yet no longer violates lore? EXCELLENT. I am glad we are seeing eye to eye that Blizz can just add automated game mechanics to explain away any "lore" violations.

[Deleted]

Seriously, how many times? How many?



Undead. Paladin abilities. Undead Paladins. /thread

From Ask Creative Development -- Round II Q & A 23 Jun 2011 (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2721372142) in World of Warcraft this has been changed to be that "Channeling the Light in any way, or receiving healing from the Light, only causes pain. Forsaken priests do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light." However, following up that question it would seem that channelling the Light has caused some Forsaken to slowly experience a sharpening of their dulled senses. So in addition to pain they also experience the decay of their flesh more acutely.

Even if they use paladin like abilities they arent true paladins.. And they will get destroyed by that power..