Undead Paladins ---> Would it work?

[Unholyground]

sure. why not. they made holy cows and blood elf paladins. lets have come orc, troll, and goblin paladins while we are at it.
there is nothing Blizzard can not go back and re write lore for it enough people QQ about it.

It is their lore they can do what they want with it in the end. Caring about the changes they make will only butt hurt the lore masters out there.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

That's weird, since I could shapeshift into 3 different animals before I even left Gilneas for Darnassus. I know you knights want to explain it all away, but all I keep seeing is GAMEPLAY.

Way to ignore my entire argument.

I explained it. Harvest Druids are not real Druids. You only had those spells because of gameplay. Harvest Druids cannot shapeshift, they only existed in Gilneas to help with the farms. They helped grow plants, grats you're a "Druid."

Think of them as being mages who cast healing spells instead of shape shifting and fireballs. Because they aren't real Druids.

But doesn't all magic come from the same base essence? All magic can be converted into other types it just has to change after it has been cast I AM A WIZARD!!!

No, it doesn't. There are opposites, but all magic comes from varying sources. Shadow spells come from the void, light comes from the Light, etc. shamans and Druids both wield nature magic, but shaman gets theirs from the elements, Druids from the nature, mages get theirs from arcane, warlocks from fel-arcane, etc. all magic is different.

[-Superman-]

And that explanation is a last ditch effort to say it's possible without any reasoning behind it. I have heard that explanation for Demon Hunters, I have heard that explanation for High Elves on the Alliance, and I have heard that explanation for Murlocs as a playable race. Not a single time has it been a valid argument.

Blizzard could decide to nuke all races tomorrow, destroy every class that currently exists, and remake the game. They could make it work in lore. So I guess that makes it just as likely to happen as Undead Paladins, right?

People want to dig up paladins to play Murlocs? Now you are just dodging the real point. You've said it is possible, and thankfully Blizz gets the final vote, not the Lore Knights, or the Combo Breakers (like myself). So, we will leave it in their hands and hope they choose wisely. Though, if there is one thing about Blizz, they tend to stray when it comes to clear thinking, so I believe the odds are slightly in my favor

[Psychotrip]

Lore-wise the undead can not utilize the holy light.

Note that the holy light DOES NOT EQUAL generic holy magic. It is debated whether or not undead can "actually" use holy magic in any form, or if it is just a game mechanic.

What is clear, however, is that the undead CAN NOT use the holy light of creation. It does not respond to the undead when used. This is possibly because of a strange loop hole in the way the Light works in that it is the collective benevolence of all mortal life. The undead are cut off from the living not only physically but spiritually, and are no longer part of that collective spiritual network.

Paladins, unlike priests, are ALWAYS connected to the Holy Light religion / philosophy. It is literally impossible for an undead to be a paladin. They could delude themselves and pretend they're a paladin, but they'd just be a warrior with some magic tricks. Paladins are literally warriors blessed with supernatural powers by the Light itself. It's not something anyone can just pick up and do.

[-Superman-]

Way to ignore my entire argument.

And way to ignore mine. If they are only Harvest Druids, they should have been left that way. But, since they were not, and it was stretched for the gameplay, Blizz needs to make another stretch for gameplay. Race/Class combo unlocks... let's hope with 6.0.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

And way to ignore mine. If they are only Harvest Druids, they should have been left that way. But, since they were not, and it was stretched for the gameplay, Blizz needs to make another stretch for gameplay. Race/Class combo unlocks... let's hope with 6.0.

No, that's not how it works.

Harvest Druids aren't real Druids. They're leftovers from the primal human cultures (since Gilneas was relatively isolated, their cultures still survived to an extent).

The harvest Druids helped with agriculture. Nothing else. They couldn't shapeshift. They couldn't do anything even lower tier Druids could (though their spells resembled those). They were not Druids.

Take it from this:
Due to the presence of harvest-witches in their culture, when Gilneans learned about night elf druids (albeit through second, third and even fourth-hand sources) they became fascinated by them and their exotic connotations, to the point where many started referring to harvest witches as "druids", though this was quite far from the truth, as few Gilneans had any idea what a druid actually was. Harvest-witches have a limited control over nature, especially plant life, and the powers of harvest witches bear a coincidental resemblance to the low-level abilities of actual druids. Harvest witches who contracted the worgen curse (which was druidic in origin) found that their powers were somewhat amplified, and after making first contact with the night elves cursed harvest witches were offered induction into the Cenarion Circle for both study and training.

This is complied from in-game sources and the Ask Dev threads. They were never Druids, they never have been. It was only with the curse (and those afflicted with it) that real Druids finally emerged in Gilneas culture.

Yeah yeah, I'm a "Lore Knight," or whatever. But as it stands, I'm right.

[Jaylock]

And way to ignore mine. If they are only Harvest Druids, they should have been left that way. But, since they were not, and it was stretched for the gameplay, Blizz needs to make another stretch for gameplay. Race/Class combo unlocks... let's hope with 6.0.

I completely agree with everything you have said in this thread. The lore knights for some reason cant stand the thought of unlocking new race / class combinations.

What I dont get about many of the blind WoW fans, is that they dislike any extra options for the player. Wether it comes to race / class combos, to different subscription models for different types of players. They like one thing and they take blizzard's stance as gospel when it comes to anything related to the game, yet blizzard's stance has changed many many many times over the years.

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No, that's not how it works.

Harvest Druids aren't real Druids. They're leftovers from the primal human cultures (since Gilneas was relatively isolated, their cultures still survived to an extent).

The harvest Druids helped with agriculture. Nothing else. They couldn't shapeshift. They couldn't do anything even lower tier Druids could (though their spells resembled those). They were not Druids.

Take it from this:
Due to the presence of harvest-witches in their culture, when Gilneans learned about night elf druids (albeit through second, third and even fourth-hand sources) they became fascinated by them and their exotic connotations, to the point where many started referring to harvest witches as "druids", though this was quite far from the truth, as few Gilneans had any idea what a druid actually was. Harvest-witches have a limited control over nature, especially plant life, and the powers of harvest witches bear a coincidental resemblance to the low-level abilities of actual druids. Harvest witches who contracted the worgen curse (which was druidic in origin) found that their powers were somewhat amplified, and after making first contact with the night elves cursed harvest witches were offered induction into the Cenarion Circle for both study and training.

This is complied from in-game sources and the Ask Dev threads. They were never Druids, they never have been. It was only with the curse (and those afflicted with it) that real Druids finally emerged in Gilneas culture.

Yeah yeah, I'm a "Lore Knight," or whatever. But as it stands, I'm right.

I would really like to see your "source" on all of this harvest druid bullshit. I call it bullshit because I think you are pulling this stuff directly out of your ass.

[unholytestament]

I would really like to see your "source" on all of this harvest druid bullshit. I call it bullshit because I think you are pulling this stuff directly out of your ass.

Q: What is the lore behind Gilnean druidism and the existence of "harvest-witches"? Is it a native practice, developed by the humans? Did they somehow pick it up from the night elves, even before the Eastern Kingdoms’ discovery of Kalimdor?
A: In the early days of humanity and its civilization, many tribes of humans had primitive belief systems that incorporated simple nature magic. However, the rise of organized religion such as the Holy Light and the potent arcane magics introduced by the high elves quickly supplanted such traditions. Gilneas, due to its relative isolation, has retained a degree of their ancient culture in the contemporary era. The religious leaders of what was in Gilneas referred to as the "old ways" eventually became "harvest-witches"; those who used their nature powers to augment Gilneas’ agricultural output during and following its period of industrialization. Due to the presence of harvest-witches in their culture, when Gilneans learned about night elf druids (albeit through second, third and even fourth-hand sources) they became fascinated by them and their exotic connotations, to the point where many started referring to harvest witches as "druids", though this was quite far from the truth, as few Gilneans had any idea what a druid actually was! Harvest-witches have a limited control over nature, especially plant life, and the powers of harvest witches bear a coincidental resemblance to the low-level abilities of actual druids. Harvest witches who contracted the worgen curse (which was druidic in origin) found that their powers were somewhat amplified, and after making first contact with the night elves cursed harvest witches were offered induction into the Cenarion Circle for both study and training.

And here's the US link for people who like to blow off the EU boards for some reason: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6489940501

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I completely agree with everything you have said in this thread. The lore knights for some reason cant stand the thought of unlocking new race / class combinations.

What I dont get about many of the blind WoW fans, is that they dislike any extra options for the player. Wether it comes to race / class combos, to different subscription models for different types of players. They like one thing and they take blizzard's stance as gospel when it comes to anything related to the game, yet blizzard's stance has changed many many many times over the years.

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I would really like to see your "source" on all of this harvest druid bullshit. I call it bullshit because I think you are pulling this stuff directly out of your ass.

http://wowpedia.org/Harvest-witch

Wowpedia is run by Curse, and it's always being updated. Those things at the bottom are called "references," and include both in-game and out of game sources, including stuff from Ask The CDevs threads on the WoW forums. So yes, pulling it out of my ass.

Ignore the speculation. It is just speculation and can neither be proved, nor disproven. Interesting to think about, but we talking facts here after all.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Q: What is the lore behind Gilnean druidism and the existence of "harvest-witches"? Is it a native practice, developed by the humans? Did they somehow pick it up from the night elves, even before the Eastern Kingdoms’ discovery of Kalimdor?
A: In the early days of humanity and its civilization, many tribes of humans had primitive belief systems that incorporated simple nature magic. However, the rise of organized religion such as the Holy Light and the potent arcane magics introduced by the high elves quickly supplanted such traditions. Gilneas, due to its relative isolation, has retained a degree of their ancient culture in the contemporary era. The religious leaders of what was in Gilneas referred to as the "old ways" eventually became "harvest-witches"; those who used their nature powers to augment Gilneas’ agricultural output during and following its period of industrialization. Due to the presence of harvest-witches in their culture, when Gilneans learned about night elf druids (albeit through second, third and even fourth-hand sources) they became fascinated by them and their exotic connotations, to the point where many started referring to harvest witches as "druids", though this was quite far from the truth, as few Gilneans had any idea what a druid actually was! Harvest-witches have a limited control over nature, especially plant life, and the powers of harvest witches bear a coincidental resemblance to the low-level abilities of actual druids. Harvest witches who contracted the worgen curse (which was druidic in origin) found that their powers were somewhat amplified, and after making first contact with the night elves cursed harvest witches were offered induction into the Cenarion Circle for both study and training.

/brofist

Love you dude

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That's because you're Jaylock, one of the least informed people when it comes to WoW lore.

His/her post is quoted directly from wowpedia. Source: http://wowpedia.org/Harvest-witch

More /brofists!

[Deleted]

Light burning the undead? How can undead be priests using holy spells? Not so into lore so please explain for me

I'm pretty sure in the canon lore all Forsaken Priests are Shadow, while all the living Priests are the other two. It's simply gameplay mechanics that comes before lore in this case.

[unholytestament]

I'm pretty sure in the canon lore all Forsaken Priests are Shadow, while all the living Priests are the other two. It's simply gameplay mechanics that comes before lore in this case.

I guess we should make sure this gets posted every page...

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

[-Superman-]

Yeah yeah, I'm a "Lore Knight," or whatever. But as it stands, I'm right.

Well, as long as you think so, that's what matters most. I've said my peace and the lore knights are latched on like a pittbull on a hambone. I'll just leave it in Blizz's hands.

[-Superman-]

I completely agree with everything you have said in this thread. The lore knights for some reason cant stand the thought of unlocking new race / class combinations.

What I dont get about many of the blind WoW fans, is that they dislike any extra options for the player. Wether it comes to race / class combos, to different subscription models for different types of players. They like one thing and they take blizzard's stance as gospel when it comes to anything related to the game, yet blizzard's stance has changed many many many times over the years.

Agreed. You would think, as a PLAYER, they would want MORE options, not fewer. At times, it feels less like asking Blizz for a QoL change and more like saving books from a bonfire in 1942. I want to add 10k things to WoW, but the Lore Knights won't stand for it.

[Synbaby]

As a class, would the lore support the undead able to become paladins?

Considering how wishy washy blizzard has been with the lore the past couple of xpacs, I think they should allow every race to be every class. Practically every mmo on the right now allows every race to play every class. I realize that it would be a huge undertaking, having to make all the armor to fit every race. Even now, some of the old armor sets look odd on pandas...

[-Superman-]

And your peace is uninformed, and incorrect at every turn. Have a good one.

You too Apple dude.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[unholytestament]

Agreed. You would think, as a PLAYER, they would want MORE options, not fewer. At times, it feels less like asking Blizz for a QoL change and more like saving books from a bonfire in 1942. I want to add 10k things to WoW, but the Lore Knights won't stand for it.

Some people aren't objecting to the idea at all, just the really crappy way you're misrepresenting existing lore to justify it.

[Ejmis]

Not at all. The light burns the undead.. SO ... Yeah.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Some people aren't objecting to the idea at all, just the really crappy way you're misrepresenting existing lore to justify it.

Pretty much this.

I'd love Forsaken Paladins. I'd love other classes too; Night Elf Paladins, Blood Elf Druids, Draenei Warlocks, etc. some of those classes and races just don't mix. Others can be made to fit with existing lore.

For example, I have my own concepts for NE paladins and BE Druids that use existing lore as a basis. I've shared them with other RPers and lore lovers who usually have an agreement or two and we put together concepts and more ideas to make them better fitting to WoW's lore. However, sometimes it just can't be done.

Draenei Warlocks? Even less likely than Forsaken Paladins. Tauren Warlocks? Fat chance. Orc Paladins or Priests? Good luck.

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Trying to shoehorn something into the game is bad. Blizzard could make it work, but would it be believable? Probably not. Tauren Priests/Paladins was done in an okay way (them being more "sun Druids," than anything), etc, etc. but like I said, sometimes it's okay and sometimes it isn't.

[Deleted]

A lot of people are saying "no, only Sir Zeliek" etc.

However, there are examples of Undead Paladins throughout the game. In Icecrown for example you can see several Undead mobs using spells such as "Unholy Light", "Hammer of Injustice" and "Avenger's Shield".

Yes, lore-wise light burns Undead. However, Undead Paladins can still have the conviction needed to utilise their former light-given powers either by stealing them (as the Blood Elves do) or by sheer force of will, as Sir Zeliek and several other monsters display. Undead Paladins are not simply Death Knights either; a Death Knight is unique in that they are far less decayed than the average Undead (since they are very powerful necromantic beings, chosen for their prowess in life and thus aren't left dead for long) and have a heavy reliance on Runic powers to fuel their life-energy and powers. Undead Paladins would be perfectly viable both lore-wise (if we assume they are using Shadow Magic as Priests are, or are using similar powers to Sir Zeliek) and gameplay wise definitely would help with the variety of Paladins available.

It would be great to see more options for the Paladin class. They could even do some minortweaks to the spell graphics to display the difference in power-source for a Forsaken/Blood Knight/Silver Hand/Sunwalker... although for recognition's sake may wish to keep them all with the "yellow" spell graphics.