A Flex Group Is Never Truely Full

[judgementofantonidas]

Unless it has 25 people in it, or 14 if you want to stick to ten man difficulties. So please, stop saying a group is full when you're at 10 members. Its actually easier if you recruit as many people as you can and remove the trouble makers as you go along. Lets all remember that this is flex, and you can have odd numbers of raiders.

Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else roll their eyes when they see that a flex group is "full" @ 10 members?

Nope. Why practice flex at a number which you would not bring to a normal raid?

[HeedmySpeed]

A Flex group is full whenever the hell the raid leader says it is.

[judgementofantonidas]

Exactly this. I've had more luck running with 17-22 than with more or less. My last 14 man run wiped 10 times on Garrosh, why would that be?

because they did not cut out the 2-3 people dragging them down and one shot it with 11.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, bub, make your own group then.

All I see you post on this forum is about you being angry at people for having their own requirements to their own groups.

I have a hard time understanding how someone who spends most of his forum time making complaints about things that do not effect him got mod privileges here.

[Cheekun]

Nope. Why practice flex at a number which you would not bring to a normal raid?

I bet a small minority of players truely treat flex as a way to practice for normals. I have 14/14 normal experience and i do flex mainly on alts to get gear. It doesn't matter to me what number the group has in flex strictly from that stand point.

Now adding 4 players to add insurance and stability to a group makes perfect sense. I don't understand how people can't grasp the concept of having extra people to make things easier, both with 14 people and as a way to insure that the first 10 people you recruited aren't terrible.

[judgementofantonidas]

I bet a small minority of players truely treat flex as a way to practice for normals. I have 14/14 normal experience and i do flex mainly on alts to get gear. It doesn't matter to me what number the group has in flex strictly from that stand point.

Now adding 4 players to add insurance and stability to a group makes perfect sense. I don't understand how people can't grasp the concept of having extra people to make things easier, both with 14 people and as a way to insure that the first 10 people you recruited aren't terrible.

The scaling is not perfect 1-1 per player added. There are break points. I have only had the oppurtunity to run it through, what 3 or 4 times now? So nailing it down has not happened yet but they are there.

Notably I took 15 people in to garrosh this week. They had all completed garrosh before on at least flex. Yet we were getting munched by adds in the final phase. Had one quit, booted out 3 and one shot it. The ones that remained were doing what was needed and numbers asside could carry the 3 who on the surface appeared not to be. Do the math.

[Halicia]

The scaling is not perfect 1-1 per player added. There are break points. I have only had the oppurtunity to run it through, what 3 or 4 times now? So nailing it down has not happened yet but they are there.

Blizzard has also stated fairly recently that the scaling is curved to be more forgiving at higher group sizes. So that one person you add at 12 or 13 makes the fight harder then if you were adding him to a group with 22-23 ppl.

Outside of Flex4, I've found the others to be *MUCH* easier with a full group of 25. I'm sure Flex4 is easier with 25 as well, but its much more troublesome to police people, and you WILL have to watch them more closely because you're guaranteed to get several. And personally, I play flex to INCLUDE people, not to exclude.

[Bladesyphon]

Since LFR, I think people have just become considerably more skeptical of the rest of the player base. You can see this in the general conversation in LFR (and I'm guilty here as well), comments on guild applications, the considerably more stringent achievement and item level requirements imposed for pugs, even compared to Cata. I saw your thread on potentially going back Horde on the Turalyon forums, and brought it up, because we're going to need a tank Horde side soon, and the first response was "Does anyone know him?"

Except none of what you said started with LFR. This has been a thing since Classic WoW. LFR had nothing to do with people want other players in the group to be over geared for content they want to PuG. This has nothing to do with LFR decreasing accountability, this has nothing to do with LFR fostering bad player habits, this has *NOTHING* to do with LFR, and I am so sick and tired of seeing people try to tie everything that's wrong with the community to LFR.

Because you want to know the truth? The Problem with the community is the community it's self. They have always been like this since day one, back in Classic WoW when people wanted folks in full Dungeon 1 or Tier 1 gear to run something like Blackrock Spire. Or in BC, when people wanted you in full Kara gear to run Heroics. Or how about Wrath and it's lovel introduction of both Gear Score and "Link Achieve or no invite" for simple raids like Naxx or OS?

LFR is not the reason for this. It's the community is, and it will always be the communities fall for fostering this kind of behavior. Stop trying to scapegoat a problem we brought upon our selves because want things fast, easy, and efficient on a system that had no part in making it like this. Because to be quite frank, this is sending the wrong message to both new players, and to Blizzard themselves, and it's just getting old.

[Fim]

Except none of what you said started with LFR. This has been a thing since Classic WoW. LFR had nothing to do with people want other players in the group to be over geared for content they want to PuG. This has nothing to do with LFR decreasing accountability, this has nothing to do with LFR fostering bad player habits, this has *NOTHING* to do with LFR, and I am so sick and tired of seeing people try to tie everything that's wrong with the community to LFR.

I don't disagree about people wanting high ilvls or achievements even back in Classic. And in a situation where you have a fixed number of people you can take total, and a fixed difficulty of raid, trying to find the best people to ensure the smoothest run makes a lot of sense.

Flex isn't like that though. Once you have 10 good people, it makes the actual raid easier to add 3-4 more, even if they are undergeared because the bosses don't scale as fast as the raid output when you add another person. Even given that difference people are preferring to run Flex with a smaller number of people (I know one guild that does it with 7 of their guildies, even though they could add a few more from trade). That if you think about it makes no sense - the instance would actually be easier with more people. It makes sense to add more people. Yet that isn't happening, and it isn't happening because no one trusts the playerbase as a whole. And that really has happened with LFR - even in DS, people were willing to PuG FL. No one is organizing PuGs for normal ToT or T14 though - it's all guild runs LF1M at best. There are no achievement mount runs, no transmog runs, nothing.

I'm perfectly willing to believe the community is terrible - my argument was that LFR has made the situation worse, because there is now a much stronger emphasis on not "carrying bads" and the ilvl requirements and demanding achievements is now about filtering them out, rather than trying to ensure a smooth run. This is very different from Cata. A lot of the feedback on this thread and the other one is emphasizing the fact that even if they could make the Flex raid actually easier by bringing more bodies, they don't want to carry people.

[Jiigeri]

10 players in a raid and leader doesn't want more? It's full. 15 raiders and leader doesn't want more? It's full. If the leader doesn't want more, sucks for you, find another flex raid. Been in anything between 10-25 player flex raids, I only mind about the success of the raid.

[Aerna]

Notably I took 15 people in to garrosh this week. They had all completed garrosh before on at least flex. Yet we were getting munched by adds in the final phase. Had one quit, booted out 3 and one shot it. The ones that remained were doing what was needed and numbers asside could carry the 3 who on the surface appeared not to be. Do the math.

You get the same number of adds on Garrosh with 10 ppl or with 25 ppl. The fight just get easier the more players you have (unless they are bad players, which is maybe the reason it was easier after you kicked 3 out). If you had been 10 at start and had to kick 3 out, guess what? you would have to leave instance and seek 3 more people.

I refuse to join flex raids starting with 10 players now. Had too much groups were someone leave mid-run and you are forced to leave and reform the group because adding players cross-realm mid run doesn't work. I'd rather form my own raid with 12-16 players and be safe is someone leave or if i have to kick some bad players out.

10 players in a raid and leader doesn't want more? It's full. 15 raiders and leader doesn't want more? It's full. If the leader doesn't want more, sucks for you, find another flex raid. Been in anything between 10-25 player flex raids, I only mind about the success of the raid.

The raid leader do whatever he wants but that doesn't mean you can't criticize his choice.

[Sul]

Flex isn't like that though. Once you have 10 good people, it makes the actual raid easier to add 3-4 more, even if they are undergeared because the bosses don't scale as fast as the raid output when you add another person.
.

have to disagree here , we have struggled badly at times with 12 /13 people , kicked those 2 or 3 underperforming and one shotted the boss . And that's with top 5 dps doing between 230k and 150k and the top 2 heals doing 100k hps plus absorbs-- we just couldn't carry the 2 or 3 who below 100k dps or only 35k hps

[kamuimac]

have to disagree here , we have struggled badly at times with 12 /13 people , kicked those 2 or 3 underperforming and one shotted the boss . And that's with top 5 dps doing between 230k and 150k and the top 2 heals doing 100k hps plus absorbs-- we just couldn't carry the 2 or 3 who below 100k dps or only 35k hps

this garosh is kinda specific fight, tuned much higher then rest of instance and therefore it needs either people to pull 200k+ dps or to execute tactics perfeckly and we all know how tactic execution looks like in pugs -_-

usually those who cry the most are the underperforming people who want to be carried - had never problem to get into most of groups for flex 1-3 which were looking in openraid for like last tank or healer when i whisper in that i wanna come on my +/- 545 alts with HC SoO exp -_- but i know people are more carefull who they take to groups with each week since more and more peopel are bumping their itlv via flex 1-3 and few first normal kills and then u end up on garosh with people who claim to have 540 itlv and doin 100k dps (not joking had a 540 mage doin <100k on gaorsh flex pug last night ><)

[Normie]

And personally, I play flex to INCLUDE people, not to exclude.

Yeah, but apparently the people who like to visit the forums and talk about flex play it for their convenience in acquiring that one hugely OP trinket, and nothing else.

[Deleted]

Yeah, but apparently the people who like to visit the forums and talk about flex play it for their convenience in acquiring that one hugely OP trinket, and nothing else.

For the love of god can you stop crying about how others play the game already? You, who defend the poor play of people in LFR and call for nerfs left and right, so that crap players can get loot. You of all people should understand and respect, that how a Flex is being done, what the requirements are and when it's full is up to the person who starts the group. Grow up already.....

[Sweetimpact]

I'll just say "no longer recruiting" from now on.
No, "raid full".

[Teebu]

Except none of what you said started with LFR. This has been a thing since Classic WoW. LFR had nothing to do with people want other players in the group to be over geared for content they want to PuG. This has nothing to do with LFR decreasing accountability, this has nothing to do with LFR fostering bad player habits, this has *NOTHING* to do with LFR, and I am so sick and tired of seeing people try to tie everything that's wrong with the community to LFR.

Because you want to know the truth? The Problem with the community is the community it's self. They have always been like this since day one, back in Classic WoW when people wanted folks in full Dungeon 1 or Tier 1 gear to run something like Blackrock Spire. Or in BC, when people wanted you in full Kara gear to run Heroics. Or how about Wrath and it's lovel introduction of both Gear Score and "Link Achieve or no invite" for simple raids like Naxx or OS?

LFR is not the reason for this. It's the community is, and it will always be the communities fall for fostering this kind of behavior. Stop trying to scapegoat a problem we brought upon our selves because want things fast, easy, and efficient on a system that had no part in making it like this. Because to be quite frank, this is sending the wrong message to both new players, and to Blizzard themselves, and it's just getting old.

I disagree. People want to know that others have done it before. Full D1 was a bit overkill, sure. Full Kara gear was not. It was supereasy to knock out half the bosses in there. My guild at the time was as social-casual as it gets, and we still got to Shade of Aran. A month or so of that and you should be decently geared.

Achievements for pugs is very acceptable. You generally pug people with experience, not without. I don't care if you say you've read up on the fights and know everything, because I don't know if you're lying or not. It might be crappy for the person being rejected, but I would potentially save wipes to easy stuff and other, good pugs leaving because I invited clueless people. Pugs go well when experienced people who had to go with an alt for the raid or are on their alt, not when people who haven't seen and done it before do it.

[Deleted]

This seems to be a new trend, feeling butthurt over not getting invited to someone elses group.

I like joining ilvl 540/550+ flex groups, quick painless, and if it's just 10 people that's great.
Smaller chance at idiots.

MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN GROUP.

[Orion Antares]

Unless it has 25 people in it, or 14 if you want to stick to ten man difficulties. So please, stop saying a group is full when you're at 10 members. Its actually easier if you recruit as many people as you can and remove the trouble makers as you go along. Lets all remember that this is flex, and you can have odd numbers of raiders.

Maybe its just a pet peeve of mine, but does anyone else roll their eyes when they see that a flex group is "full" @ 10 members?

Edit: People seem to think I'm just qqing about not being invited to flex groups. This simply isn't true, as i have no problem getting into groups. So you might ask why did i make this topic if not to qq? Its actually to point out some points. Namely points i make in posts on other pages which I'll quote here to better facilitate discussion.

I can see a flex group being full at 10 players. It really all depends on how many healers you can dig up. If I can only dig up two LFR/Flex quality healers you can bet I'm cutting off invites at 10 unless the 11th is a 3rd healer. In that case I would consider up to 15.

[kamuimac]

Now adding 4 players to add insurance and stability to a group makes perfect sense. I don't understand how people can't grasp the concept of having extra people to make things easier, both with 14 people and as a way to insure that the first 10 people you recruited aren't terrible.

for 13/14 flex it doesnt really matter what numeber of people u bring in since its faceroll anyway - now garosh is a different deal cause in there everybody needs to do perfect execution u cant really have anyone dead and people need to pull decent numbers - looking for my experience with flex so far garosh might be purposedly a bit overtuned there for the flex audience but since its the last boss of expansion its a good thing its chalenging - but like its been said hundered of time its rl decision how many people he/she wants to bring in so why people complaiin is beyond me - anyone can do some work make their own groups and then take even 25 people if they want -_-

and thing about "stability" if u add 4 560 itlv players of course group will be more stable but if u would add 4 520-530 itlv people to the group of lets say 545-550 average then its not stability its dead weight -_-

[Normie]

For the love of god can you stop crying about how others play the game already? You, who defend the poor play of people in LFR and call for nerfs left and right, so that crap players can get loot. You of all people should understand and respect, that how a Flex is being done, what the requirements are and when it's full is up to the person who starts the group. Grow up already.....

Yes, the requirements are created so that a group of people who outgear the instance can quickly fill a gear slot with an overpowered trinket.

Because, you know, it's important to be challenged when you play the game.