Burst and normal rotation.

[Assaris]

Burst:
I was talking to a friend, getting some tips about the burst and I feel really confortable with (thanks Squirl! :P), but other information could be great to get! Here's the rotation of my burst (pull).

• (Pre pull)Premed > Slic'n Dic > Stealth (/Pre pull) Hemo > Garrote > Shad Danc + Shad Blad > Ambush ('til 5 or more, without spending combo points with anti) > Evis > Ambush (all over again) > Evis > Start rotation.

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Rotation:
Going easy, without any more knowlodge about it, just playing safe, doing the minimum dps I could do with the stuff I did know about it, but I think my dps could increase with some help from u guys!

• Backstab ('til 5) > Evis > Always keeping Rupture and Hemo (everytime I get Find Weakness debuff or some cool proc from trinkets, AoC and Renataki's) and reapplying Rupture with trinket procs, doesnt matter about losing some ticks, but wasting at maximum 8/9 seconds of this.

In resume: I spam Backstab and Evis totally no-brain, and keep Rup and Hemo up, thats my "normal rotation" and I feel that Sub-spec its much more than this. I'm truly used to Assassination, but I think its just to boring and the nerf was my excuse to try something new and Combat-spec... Just spamming no-brain and get awesome dps... Cant "cheat" like that haha.

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Totally forgot to put the spec at the name of the Thread! BURST AND NORMAL ROTATION FOR SUB!!

[mongoose6]

Burst:
I was talking to a friend, getting some tips about the burst and I feel really confortable with (thanks Squirl! :P), but other information could be great to get! Here's the rotation of my burst (pull).

• (Pre pull)Premed > Slic'n Dic > Stealth (/Pre pull) Hemo > Garrote > Shad Danc + Shad Blad > Ambush ('til 5 or more, without spending combo points with anti) > Evis > Ambush (all over again) > Evis > Start rotation.

Garrote applies both SV and FW, you can take the initial Hemo out of the rotation.

[Hulkovius]

Opener
Why use Garrote?
Why not start off with 2 ambush or even 3?

I guess u aint in a 10 man without armor debuff but where would u wanna put expose armor in the opener?
I like the premed and SND, I will pick that one. Fairly new to Rogue (2 weeks of progression).

Rotation
Is it intended that u use Evis rather than keeping rupture and hemo or is it typo?
"Evis > always"

[Assaris]

Garrote applies both SV and FW, you can take the initial Hemo out of the rotation.

But the debuff time of the Hemo is longer what could make it soft then put a Hemo after, or the energy I save without puting Hemo make the burst better? Or should I apply Garrote inside the SD to get SV and FW again?

- - - Updated - - -

Opener
Why use Garrote?
Why not start off with 2 ambush or even 3?

I guess u aint in a 10 man without armor debuff but where would u wanna put expose armor in the opener?
I like the premed and SND, I will pick that one. Fairly new to Rogue (2 weeks of progression).

Rotation
Is it intended that u use Evis rather than keeping rupture and hemo or is it typo?
"Evis > always"

For both of those questions there is only one answear: Sanguinary Vein. 35% more dmg while Hemo (with glyph), Garrote, Rupture or Crimsom Tempes on the target.

[mongoose6]

But the debuff time of the Hemo is longer what could make it soft then put a Hemo after, or the energy I save without puting Hemo make the burst better? Or should I apply Garrote inside the SD to get SV and FW again?

If you garrote prior to hemo, your hemo will benefit from both SV and FW. You should already have SV from multiple sources as you enter SD so there isn't much reason to use garrote after the initial opening of the fight.

[Sheltx]

I was under the impression the optimal opener was

Premeditation (from stealth) -> Unstealth -> Wait 1-2 seconds before pull -> Prepot + cast Slice and Dice -> Restealth -> Garrote -> Ambush -> Ambush

Assuming you pull with lust on that fight otherwise

Ambush -> Hemo -> Ambush.

Or was this thread about something completely different to openers?

[Assaris]

I was under the impression the optimal opener was

Premeditation (from stealth) -> Unstealth -> Wait 1-2 seconds before pull -> Prepot + cast Slice and Dice -> Restealth -> Garrote -> Ambush -> Ambush

Assuming you pull with lust on that fight otherwise

Ambush -> Hemo -> Ambush.

Or was this thread about something completely different to openers?

There's more than one type of opener, and spend the MoS at a stealth with Amb custing 60 energy ain't good, so I prefer just pull SV and FW for burst up

[Sheltx]

It kind of seems like you are wasting a lot of FW uptime by going straight into SD off the opener. Would it not be better to wait until FW has 1-2 seconds left, then use SD so that first ambush still benefits from it. Or am I completely wrong in thinking it is worth getting more FW uptime over a MoS SD?

[Assaris]

I'm using it to get a great burst what puts my DPS really high, the Vanish and Premeditation take care of the first 1 minute of fight, because of the low CD of SD (if you have AoC) so the "FW/time wasted" its not that much with an awesome burst.

Especially with BL at the pull that will make you dealing more damage cuz' of the haste plus trinket-procs, FW, SV... What makes your dps at the burst even higher.

Showing numbers that could make me see wrong I would think about change it, but right now its working really well, having great bursts and dealing without problems.

[uctar]

i do the prepull like Sheltx mentioned.

I wouldnt bother with Garrote, it had bad DPE and bad DPS i feel like i am way better of going: ambush->ambush->hemo->expose(if you have atleast 1 more melee or hunter[excluding tanks])->Clear CP's->Blades->Dance

Its way more important to get your blades and Dance up with as many trinkets/pots/procs in the opener than optimizing your FW uptime. if you have AoC and 4piece you can sometimes stay in FW untill the next dance.

My Burst has Varied From 800k-1.200k(564-569 Gear) Depending on trinkets and opener Crits, i tried getting up SV first but never past 900k, might be unlucky, but thats what i expierienced.

[straws]

I also agree with, uctar, doing a opener with ambush hemo ambush (or ambush ambush hemo) , and poping shadowdance immediately has always given me higher returns, 800k-1mill burst , never reaching those numbers while following the other rotation u mentioned. Garrote's damage is pathetic, Sv can be put up by hemo if u have hemo glyph (which u should have).

[mongoose6]

Pull however you wanna, but bear in mind that if you Ambush, Ambush, Hemo that your first ambush does not benefit from FW or SV, your second Ambush doesn't benefit from SV and your initial hemo doesn't benefit from SV. If all you want to do is burst really high at the beginning of the fight then overlap your FW uptime, but if you want to maximize the amount of damage you do throughout the course of the fight, you'll not want to do that.

If I'm missing something here and the application of the debuffs apply to the target prior to the strike, please correct me.

Edit - When I say overlap, I'm talking about clipping the full duration, you should always overlap it a bit so that your initial ambush benefits from the previous FW application.

[Helgrim]

Hello I recently started Subtlety can someone please tell me the standart opener and rotation afterwards for pve ? Also which talent lvl 10 is favorited for pve. Thank you in advance

[Deleted]

Well if you raid and ofc you have a timer on a pull . Like we have* 8/10 sec pre pull.
You can Stealth/preme Unstealth> Wait for 3 sec before pull> Slice and dice ...pre pot/stealth >> Ambush>Hemo>Shadow dance~Shadow blades>1x ambush >2x spamm evi >2x ambush>evi Ambush>ambush>rotation (Ofc by the time you will have Preme in Shadow dance).
Anyway with this way im doing i have reached 1.3m Burst ofc with Bl/tw.

[Sesshou]

Unless you're trying to see something stupid for the hell of it, a lot of those openers don't make sense... I mean is there any fight this tier where you'd want to for some reason increase your opening burst to maximize it in a smaller than 18 second window?

Hemo>Garrote is retarded. You delay your FW, hemo benefits from neither FW or SV. If you just use a garrote instead, you instantly get FW and garrote benefits from its own SV application.

Opening with ambush>hemo is pretty dumb too. Thats 2 hits that aren't getting an extra 35% damage and hemo isn't benefiting from SV.

And is this threat about "burst" or opening rotation versus standard rotation. Based on the 2 categories in the OP, it seems to be the latter as he only ever listed 1 rotation and not a "burst and normal" as the title indicates.

Garrote's damage is pathetic, Sv can be put up by hemo if u have hemo glyph (which u should have).

Except garrote benefits from its own SV application and hemo does not. During the fight this means yeah you'd want to hemo, on the opener you do not have SV running and you also delay either SV or FW by opening with ambush/hemo.

Or should I apply Garrote inside the SD to get SV and FW again?

No, you should rupture inside the dance if it isn't already up though (unless for some reason it isn't going to tick for full duration) as rupture is more damage per cast than evis even with FW.

Also btw, if you are only concerned with max burst on the pull, your weapons are in the wrong hands. During the 'burst' sequence used in your OP, you would do a lot more damage with your heroic mace in your MH.

[mongoose6]

I totally agree. The idea of intentionally mismanaging your buffs and debuffs in order to maximize burst instead of attempting to max your sustained seems kinda silly to me. Whatever floats your boat though I guess. If you really want to buff your burst though, you want to get FW and SV up as soon as possible, the most efficient way to do so is with garrote.

[uctar]

my opener is Amush hemo Ambush, and in experience:

first [Ambush (no SV)+ Hemo (no SV)] > (Garrote + Hemo with SV)

and thats the only trade you have to make, and im 99% sure Ambush dmg tops that Garrote +hemo bonus.

and with AoC you should Dance right after your Subterfuge, because if you SD -> vanish -> Vanish -> SD you have to delay your second SD for atleast 4 seconds anyway(if your 4 piece procs, you cant even use your 2nd vanishbefore then second dance), so you might aswell use your first SD with MoS and full trinkets.

[Sesshou]

Thats a fail comparison though. What you are really comparing is Ambush damage (no FW, no SV) against 15 energy + 2 main hand and 2 offhand auto attacks with FW and SV + poison procs from 4 swings now benefiting from SV + garrote with SV + next special benefiting from SV.

[mongoose6]

Thats a fail comparison though. What you are really comparing is Ambush damage (no FW, no SV) against 15 energy + 2 main hand and 2 offhand auto attacks with FW and SV + poison procs from 4 swings now benefiting from SV + garrote with SV + next special benefiting from SV.

Actually you're not even comparing it to ambush damage as both openers include two ambushes. You're comparing garrote to hemo with the garrote at the top of the rotation and the hemo in the middle. Which makes Sesshou twice as correct in his statement.