The gear gap is larger than it has even been. Why all the complaints about LFR gear?

[skulmar]

Since Blizzard implemented their current gearing model in early WoTLK the item level gap between the best gear available to raiders and the best gear available to non raiders has been getting wider and wider. The addition of flex and LFG, the removal of valor gear, and going from +7 I level heroic increase to +13 have really kicked the process into high gear in MoP.

Take for example patch 3.3. A player with full BiS ICC gear would have an average ilevel of 277. A BiS player who never set foot into a raid would have 261. This is a difference of 16 item levels.*

Now, in MoP a character with full BiS LFR gear + legendary cloak has an average ilevel of 543 (550 if they have full burden of eternity gear), while a player in full BiS heroic SoO gear has an item level of 576 (583 if full war forged). A difference of 33 item levels*.

So, in two expansion's time the difference between a raider and a non raider has more than doubled*. Yet everyday I see people on this forum complaining that casuals now have access to gear that should be exclusive to raiders. Why is this?

It can't just be because non raiders have access to "purple" gear, as that has been the case since they implemented the PvP system in Vanilla (the origin of the term welfare epics). Is it really just because LFR allows players to see the content?

Also, for the first time there is content in the game where non raiders really need high level gear, the top tiers of Brawler's Guild for example.


*: Blizzards ilevel formula calculates a roughly ~10%** increase in stats for every 13 item levels. Thus you need to look at absolute values rather than percentages to see the actual difference in character stats. Also keep in mind that most secondary stats serve as force multipliers rather than linear additions, and thus character power actually scales faster than the stats alone would indicate.


**: The actual number looks to be about an 11.1% increase (or an 8.8% decrease if going down instead of up) but may very SLIGHTLY based on rounding and sockets.

Edit: D'oh! Forgot to factor in crafted 553 belts and leggings. Updated my numbers to reflect this.

[swagster]

the gear is not the problem. The problem is that the gear is given for free, and they still get to see content

they don't deserve gear, they don't deserve to see end game content

[Gadfly]

the gear is not the problem. The problem is that the gear is given for free, and they still get to see content

they don't deserve gear, they don't deserve to see end game content

Why? Do you pay more for the game than them?

It's nice you have all the free time in the world to dedicate to the game.

But others out there have a busy schedule that would like to play this FULL game.
So they should just run the boring dungeons and dailies forever?

The gear is hardly free. All I see is raiders complaining that LFR is a wipe fest and frustrating.
It seems to me people that put up with that nonsense earned the gear more than you did.

[skulmar]

The problem is that the gear is given for free, they don't deserve gear

Bad gear has ALWAYS been given away for free in WoW, this is nothing new. You could always grind rep, gold, honor, catch-up 5 mans, or JP / VP to get second rate items in WoW. It has never required skill, although it does normally take quite a bit of time and effort.

"Deserve" is a bit of a philosophical issue. I think everyone agrees that people who have dedication, skill, and luck deserve the BEST gear, but I am not sure I agree with the mentality that people who only have one or two of those virtues don't deserve something worthwhile.

they don't deserve to see end game content

Ok, that's about what a figured. Most people don't say it so bluntly.

Also, LFR isn't really "seeing content" anymore now that you can go find virtually anything on youtube. The only thing you actually experience is being able to play through a watered down and brain dead version of the content with half the mechanics and all the challenge removed.

(BTW I am personally not part of a raiding guild at the moment, and while LFR is fun to play through once for the storyline, I personally think it is the least enjoyable method of "grinding second rate gear" that Blizzard has ever introduced).

[Bodaway]

I've never understood the importance of knowing or caring about what another player's character is equipped with. I don't care what type of gear you have just as you should do the same for me.

[Sticky]

the gear is not the problem. The problem is that the gear is given for free, and they still get to see content

they don't deserve gear, they don't deserve to see end game content

This has got to be a joke. Nobody is this malicious...

[Dragore]

This has got to be a joke. Nobody is this malicious...

This wouldn't surprise me at all now a days on these forums. The hate for others is great.

[Maoli]

the gear is not the problem. The problem is that the gear is given for free, and they still get to see content

they don't deserve gear, they don't deserve to see end game content

I don't see how the gear isn't deserved. When I used to raid I logged in, spent hours doing raid bosses, got gear. Not I log in, spend hours doing raid bosses, get gear. The bosses maybe be easier but the situation required to obtain gear is even more of a pain in the ass most of the time. If I was able to run with a guild I would... and i'd have better gear to show for it. Since I can't do guild runs I settle for the hassle that is LFR and I get some gear. Definitely deserved.

[nekobaka]

I don't care what type of gear you have just as you should do the same for me.

There are players who are quick to call out others for caring about the gear they wear yet dont hold themselves to the same standard.

[Deleted]

I hate to be the one to nitpick, but how on earth could you get 261 ilvl in WotLK without raiding? The absolute maximum I believe you could get without raiding was 251 emblem of frost gear, which would take a very long time to grind with only the daily heroic. Aside from that you only had 232 emblem and dungeon gear.

Edit: apparently I misremembered, triumph gear was 245 and frost gear was 264, aside from the sets which were lower. I still don't think it was reasonable for a non-raider to grind enough emblems to max out on that gear though.

[PrairieChicken]

Because having to grind LFR for months to run normals is stupid idea

[skulmar]

I hate to be the one to nitpick, but how on earth could you get 261 ilvl in WotLK without raiding? The absolute maximum I believe you could get without raiding was 251 emblem of frost gear, which would take a very long time to grind with only the daily heroic. Aside from that you only had 232 emblem and dungeon gear.

Frost gear was 264 for off set pieces, 251 for tier. There are tons of 264 BOES, and you can buy a 264 ring with gold, a 251 weapon from the battered hilt quest, and 245 gear with justice points.

For an arms warrior (which is what I played and thus what I used for my example) I could have a 264 in every slot but helm, weapon, and second trinket with a combination of gold and frost gear.

Someone who didn't use a two handed weapon would have a slightly lower item level, but then again you could also get a 271 ring by doing ICC trash runs or get a few nice epics from the holiday bosses to off set it, , which I also didn't factor in.

[ACES]

The reason there's a "problem" is because some people just can't stand other people walking around with purple squares around their gear icons.

[KungFuFanta]

I use LFR to see content first hand. I could watch the entire WC3 campaign on Youtube, wouldn't be the same as playing it.

If they removed all the gear rewards from LFR I wouldn't give a single damn.

damn <- see this damn? See it? I wouldn't give it, it would stay in my pocket.

[Iyarashii]

I hate to be the one to nitpick, but how on earth could you get 261 ilvl in WotLK without raiding? The absolute maximum I believe you could get without raiding was 251 emblem of frost gear, which would take a very long time to grind with only the daily heroic. Aside from that you only had 232 emblem and dungeon gear.

Edit: apparently I misremembered, triumph gear was 245 and frost gear was 264, aside from the sets which were lower. I still don't think it was reasonable for a non-raider to grind enough emblems to max out on that gear though.

264 crafted gear and raid drops, and the basically free 277 ashen verdict ring you could get by just grinding trash.

[skulmar]

Because having to grind LFR for months to run normals is stupid idea

You know, I always though Blizzard should use a stair stepping model when it comes to item level. LFR gives the same ilevel as the previous tier normal, and heroic gives the same ilevel as next tier normal.

For some reason Blizzard doesn't do this. Probably so people who skip a tier of content or want to swap from normal mode to heroic rode between tiers have an easier time stepping back in.

[Buxton McGraff]

Bad players complain about not getting to have/see the same things as great players, so Blizzard gives into them and hands them free shit without having to do any work.

[Shiny212]

Why? Do you pay more for the game than them?

It's nice you have all the free time in the world to dedicate to the game.

But others out there have a busy schedule that would like to play this FULL game.
So they should just run the boring dungeons and dailies forever?

The gear is hardly free. All I see is raiders complaining that LFR is a wipe fest and frustrating.
It seems to me people that put up with that nonsense earned the gear more than you did.

Back in TBC/wotlk you could actually raid 3 hours a week and successfully clear all content. You didn't NEED to play every day, but you needed to get better, just because we PAY for a game it should be easy? So not to brush our ego or some other twisted reason?

[Faenlyn]

I agree 100% and was about to post a similar discussion. I was looking at it more in terms of DPS however which is also enlightening.

I am in the best gear you can get from flex raiding level of play. Ilevel 555 with 4 pc including 2 pc from Celestials. Ordos gear in slots available as long as it doesn't break 4 pc. I do about 250-280k DPS. I consider that very competitive and as such I am happy to play and compete in any raid I'm invited to without thinking that I am just embarassing myself for being there.

Then I did a raid with full heroic geared players. They were doing 400 - 450k single target DPS.

That is absolute insane and out of control. The DPS differential between the top "casual" players and "hardcore" raiders has never been that large. Heroic players were always within enviable but reasonable range. To be more than DOUBLE the DPS of everyone else is out of control and not fun.

[Forgettable]

I hate to be the one to nitpick, but how on earth could you get 261 ilvl in WotLK without raiding? The absolute maximum I believe you could get without raiding was 251 emblem of frost gear, which would take a very long time to grind with only the daily heroic. Aside from that you only had 232 emblem and dungeon gear.

Edit: apparently I misremembered, triumph gear was 245 and frost gear was 264, aside from the sets which were lower. I still don't think it was reasonable for a non-raider to grind enough emblems to max out on that gear though.

You could get emblems of frost from the heroic daily, which could buy you 264 gear. Combine that with crafted gear, and 245 gear from badges of justice, I guess 261 item level would be pretty accurate.