Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Solsacra]

Just want to start off by saying that i think some people put to much stock in simulations. don't get me wrong, they're amazing tools. but, they dont always reflect reality very well. as i stated months ago, having atleast 40% is a decent soft point for a few reasons:
Cooldown power, at 40% haste you receive the final tick of hammer of wrath (14th) during SW, sure the gain is small but you do not gain anymore casts, atleast optimally at 50%(which isn't even reachable with optimal gear). this fact combined with our greatly increased damage via mastery attacks(and crit!). mainly TV and four piece DS during SW. for every 600 mastery you pick up you gain an effective 2.5% damage increase during these periods. where additional haste gives us nothing.

outside of this however i can see haste being slightly superior, but again, not by much. the next reason is melee responsibility (hey, atleast this is reality right?) depending on your guilds strategy for many of these fights, and believe me, there are MANY ways to do almost every fight in siege, whats stats you pick will determine which will be best. if you constantly find yourself with uptime issues on the boss, haste will suffer more than mastery and crit contribution. how do you handle Nazgrim, Malkorok, Sha, Galakras, Spoils(oh yeah, i went there. adds) and heroic paragon burn phases? what about Heroic Siegecrafter belt duty? where mastery rets with 580 CDR trinkets make combat rogues look like trash? what about heroic Garrosh from the p3-p4 push where SW has a significant uptime during that short, crucial period? in a vaccume haste will likely end up on top with favourable conditions. but these don't exist.

unless your willing to take what a vast multitude of rets are now doing as wrong, without taking logs into account and understandiung why they're doing so, we've no discussion here.

[Zephur]

People who are the best at doing things in practice (who you refer to as exceptional players), aren't always the best at theorising. This is the same reason I think discarding Exemplar's advice based on progress is foolish.

I think it's important that we have people like Exemplar and people like Anaxie. It's important to have a good grounding in theorycraft (just look at what Theck does for Prot!), but we have to take the theory out of the vacuum and apply it to the actual encounters. Anaxie and others have been exceptionally good at showing where theory gives way to practicality.

[Deleted]

If the last phrase was meant for me Solsacra, then I agree pretty much what you're saying. It is however not what Anaxie is saying I am saying (and I am beginning to think he'll say anything he can just for the sake of being against me). Anaxie does not like to make arguments based on anything else than his own opinion.

Logs have nothing to do with theorycrafting since as you mentioned it depends so much on the different playstyle, strategy and gear setup. Logs are realtime data which you need to interpret and you can do that in a multiple number of ways. So again, I'll emphasize that if one ret does X and manages to get ranked 1, it doesn't mean it is the correct way.

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I think it's important that we have people like Exemplar and people like Anaxie. It's important to have a good grounding in theorycraft (just look at what Theck does for Prot!), but we have to take the theory out of the vacuum and apply it to the actual encounters. Anaxie and others have been exceptionally good at showing where theory gives way to practicality.

Isn't Theck the one keeping the Retribution part of Simcraft alive? The problem with Anaxie is he trashtalks too much, what he lists on the first page is nothing revolutionary I'm sorry to say. I'm glad he did post it for the masses though, I am however not particulary excited how he handles people who disagree with his research methods.

[Zephur]

Isn't Theck the one keeping the Retribution part of Simcraft alive?

Yes, he is, thank goodness. There was no one else to do ret, and he was already doing prot.

As for Anaxie, you have to learn that he's a better at trolling than he is at facerolling. And by now, he's got a keyboard embedded in his face.

[anaxie]

Yes, he is, thank goodness. There was no one else to do ret, and he was already doing prot.

As for Anaxie, you have to learn that he's a better at trolling than he is at facerolling. And by now, he's got a keyboard embedded in his face.

Much Mean

So Sorrow

Such Post

wow

[Zephur]

Much Mean

So Sorrow

Such Post

wow

Anaxie, y u no have Thok's?

Also....my bad for abandoning my trinket thread. Real Life and all that jazz. Would have been stupidly hard to sim t15 & t16 trinks with my sheet though.

[Tanyn]

If the last phrase was meant for me Solsacra, then I agree pretty much what you're saying. It is however not what Anaxie is saying I am saying (and I am beginning to think he'll say anything he can just for the sake of being against me). Anaxie does not like to make arguments based on anything else than his own opinion.

Logs have nothing to do with theorycrafting since as you mentioned it depends so much on the different playstyle, strategy and gear setup. Logs are realtime data which you need to interpret and you can do that in a multiple number of ways. So again, I'll emphasize that if one ret does X and manages to get ranked 1, it doesn't mean it is the correct way.

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Isn't Theck the one keeping the Retribution part of Simcraft alive? The problem with Anaxie is he trashtalks too much, what he lists on the first page is nothing revolutionary I'm sorry to say. I'm glad he did post it for the masses though, I am however not particulary excited how he handles people who disagree with his research methods.

What you don't seem to understand is that most people would rather go off of actual dps logs than some simulated "perfect environment" simulation tool. Which is still one person inputting data and equations that aren't verified or supported by Blizzard. So, you have to take those with just as much of a grain of salt as you do logs.

You come on "Anaxie's" thread and start bashing him and how he does things. It's really easy to NOT click the damn thread. Then you don't have to read anything that's being said in here. You can also go start your own thread and try to show all your simulation numbers and have a blast.. or just stick to Elitist Jerks. At this point you're just beating a dead horse. We've explained numerous times why people are using the numbers and setups they're using. Just because you don't like that Anaxie hasn't said it the way you want doesn't mean the information is not in the thread. I get more annoyed at you than I do him. At least I have some expectation of his ego when I click on the thread.

[anaxie]

Anaxie, y u no have Thok's?

Also....my bad for abandoning my trinket thread. Real Life and all that jazz. Would have been stupidly hard to sim t15 & t16 trinks with my sheet though.

I knew you looked familiar. Yeah fuck these trinkets wtb squish to TBC levels #leet2kdps pst

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At least I have some expectation of his ego when I click on the thread.

Must resist urge. All your rets are belong to us....

Also why do ppl pick at the name title "your thread isn't REVOLUTIONARY" Lmfao. I think ppl miss the point that the last 3 previous versions of this thread represented.

Anaxie's totally kickass 4.3
Anaxies totally awesome 5.0
Anaxies totally magnificent 5.2

Suggestions for 6.0 Name?

It's ment to sound conceited because I am. The thread is secretly a ret blog. *gasp* .

Turns out people enjoy the thread so I keep it going. Some people get butthurt that it isn't 24/7 serious time, I think we had a mod decision about that with Boub in here.

We have special rules for some threads where we're more lenient on some points, defining whether or not people should get butthurt isn't a point that is negotiable. Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

[Deleted]

I'm not bashing anyone Tanyn, and I explained that it is a public moderated forum. Just because his name is in the title doesn't mean its his. As long as he backs his findings up, I am more than happy to look at it and agree or disagree, constructively. Just because you're used to him doesn't mean I am. There is plenty of room for both though, no doubt. As long as his reasons for not agreeing with me are "I got 2 more HCs down" or what not.

I do look at logs, trust me. I analyze them quite a bit on uptime, procs, buff and such. But I wouldn't rank players skill purely on logs.

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I was the highest ranked Holy Paladin on Baleroc, then the nerf hit and you couldn't whore sparks anymore. Did that mean I was the best? Probably not

[Xtrm]

So, I've been looking at replacing all my Fierce Vermillion Onyx with Wicked Vermillion Onyx because I'm losing a bunch of mastery due to expertise caps. I've been messing around on Mr. Robot to see what to swap around to get the most stats. I'm seeing that I'll get about .5% haste, 3% mastery, but I'd lose about 1,000 strength (unbuffed stats). Would this be worth it? (I cannot post links, so if anyone needs to see my armory, my name is Xtrm from server Grizzly Hill-US.)

Also, would it be worth it to get two other pieces of gear to swap out in non-AoE fights where the 4pc T16 set isn't really amazing?

And one final question: If I'm WAY over hit cap, should I replace some of my Lightning Wild Jade for the little bit of stamina the Forceful Wild Jade provides?

[anaxie]

So, I've been looking at replacing all my Fierce Vermillion Onyx with Wicked Vermillion Onyx because I'm losing a bunch of mastery due to expertise caps. I've been messing around on Mr. Robot to see what to swap around to get the most stats. I'm seeing that I'll get about .5% haste, 3% mastery, but I'd lose about 1,000 strength (unbuffed stats). Would this be worth it? (I cannot post links, so if anyone needs to see my armory, my name is Xtrm from server Grizzly Hill-US.)

Also, would it be worth it to get two other pieces of gear to swap out in non-AoE fights where the 4pc T16 set isn't really amazing?

And one final question: If I'm WAY over hit cap, should I replace some of my Lightning Wild Jade for the little bit of stamina the Forceful Wild Jade provides?

How would you lose 1k strength and only gain 3% mast. does not compute.

[Imperviable]

I'm inclined to agree with Feliclandelo, people would really like to see some numbers or reasoning behind a 40% haste soft cap. I think a lot of people's issue with Anaxie is that he puts too little stock in numbers and when questioned simply reverts to saying "the best players are doing it." At least Solsacta's post on the previous page brought up the additional HoW. People want to see some justification deeper than "exceptional players do it" and "you need x/14 progression to have any opinion."

[Deleted]

If you're way over hitcap you should probably look into if its not worth using 2x320 haste gems or something similar and ignore socketbonus. Otherwise go for stamina, the hit is just wasted stat.

Regarding MrRobot, it depends on the values it has for strength/haste/mastery. 3% mastery is around 1800 mastery and 212,5 haste? Then you could probably gain a very minor bit of extra damage by following its advice.

Use T16 4set even for single target, it's still an increase and the stats are decent for single target (no crit and crit is only relevant at higher iLvls)

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How would you lose 1k strength and only gain 3% mast. does not compute.

Isn't it 600 mastery rating for 1% ?

[anaxie]

I'm not bashing anyone Tanyn, and I explained that it is a public moderated forum. Just because his name is in the title doesn't mean its his. As long as he backs his findings up, I am more than happy to look at it and agree or disagree, constructively. Just because you're used to him doesn't mean I am. There is plenty of room for both though, no doubt. As long as his reasons for not agreeing with me are "I got 2 more HCs down" or what not.

Thats not the reason, the reason i value my opinion so highly is because of 13 raiding tiers of experience with the spec. Similar peers *TBC rets represent* Hold a special place in my heart.

Am I biased infuriatingly different? Absolutely!

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If you're way over hitcap you should probably look into if its not worth using 2x320 haste gems or something similar and ignore socketbonus. Otherwise go for stamina, the hit is just wasted stat.

Regarding MrRobot, it depends on the values it has for strength/haste/mastery. 3% mastery is around 1800 mastery and 212,5 haste? Then you could probably gain a very minor bit of extra damage by following its advice.

Use T16 4set even for single target, it's still an increase and the stats are decent for single target (no crit and crit is only relevant at higher iLvls)

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Isn't it 600 mastery rating for 1% ?

285 mast 425 haste 600 crit

Ohgod you sim without knowing the rating per % contribution /head explode

[anaxie]

I'm inclined to agree with Feliclandelo, people would really like to see some numbers or reasoning behind a 40% haste soft cap. I think a lot of people's issue with Anaxie is that he puts too little stock in numbers and when questioned simply reverts to saying "the best players are doing it." At least Solsacta's post on the previous page brought up the additional HoW. People want to see some justification deeper than "exceptional players do it" and "you need x/14 progression to have any opinion."

We have a process between beta patches. Things get forgotten, but the shit gets done. It's likely between page 180 - 270 have fun

[Fredzilla]

So, I've been looking at replacing all my Fierce Vermillion Onyx with Wicked Vermillion Onyx because I'm losing a bunch of mastery due to expertise caps. I've been messing around on Mr. Robot to see what to swap around to get the most stats. I'm seeing that I'll get about .5% haste, 3% mastery, but I'd lose about 1,000 strength (unbuffed stats). Would this be worth it? (I cannot post links, so if anyone needs to see my armory, my name is Xtrm from server Grizzly Hill-US.)

Also, would it be worth it to get two other pieces of gear to swap out in non-AoE fights where the 4pc T16 set isn't really amazing?

And one final question: If I'm WAY over hit cap, should I replace some of my Lightning Wild Jade for the little bit of stamina the Forceful Wild Jade provides?

I can't imagine there is any amount of stats on off-set pieces of gear this tier that would make up for losing the t16 4pc.

If you're using 0 hit from the gems, switch it to stam. Having more health is better than completely wasted hit. Also, use a 320 haste gem in your sword since you don't need the hit (160 haste is a lot better than 60 str and some stam from the socket bonus)

And yes, replace your fierce gems with wicked. That would give you about 1600 more mastery, which is about 5%, at the cost of 800 strength.

You should also try to replace that cleave trinket with really anything else (even stuff from last tier is better for single target), since the cleave does literally nothing on single target, and there are no stats.

[Deleted]

Thats not the reason, the reason i value my opinion so highly is because of 13 raiding tiers of experience with the spec. Similar peers *TBC rets represent* Hold a special place in my heart.

Am I biased infuriatingly different? Absolutely!

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285 mast 425 haste 600 crit

Ohgod you sim without knowing the rating per % contribution /head explode

I just looked at the wrong numbers from wowpedia. I was doing the math meanwhile but had to log in, which seems to be around 320'ish.

I don't sim with the wrong numbers since the numbers are not based on percentages but on how much rating you have (i.e. numbers). You're right that the math seemed wierd then.

[anaxie]

No idea how much .5% haste and 3% mastery is and no way to check until monday, do you have that in ratings?

.5 haste 213 rating

3% mast 855 rating

If thoks *.91

[Deleted]

And Anaxie, you're not the only one who has been raiding endgame, not sure if you were not aware. I've myself been in guilds with everything from Kel'Thuzad in vanilla to Kil'Jaeden pre 3.0, Lich King heroic etc. I will though say I have been Holy just as much as I have been playing Ret for the sake of progress.

[anaxie]

And Anaxie, you're not the only one who has been raiding endgame, not sure if you were not aware. I've myself been in guilds with everything from Kel'Thuzad in vanilla to Kil'Jaeden pre 3.0, Lich King heroic etc. I will though say I have been Holy just as much as I have been playing Ret for the sake of progress.

Thats fine. Still not a fan of dummysims. Important part of my thread though is DIVERSITY. Would people honestly be happy if I was generic guy #157 saying the same blah blah blah lines. Come now. Alot of people / silent readers love to come home and read the updates / random nonsense in here.

Atleast we all have the same goal. B1!G NUMBARS. That and boss corpses..... and big 2handers..... /stroke

I hope we never have a T15 - T16 set swap like that ever again. The ping ponging in the damage loss VS stats / surperior 2set/ filler tradeoff was cancer worthy.