My solution to 20 man Mythic

[TyrianFC]

It's a good long-term change for the raiding game that will have short-term adjustment pains.

It's still the right thing to do.

[DechCJC]

It's a short term struggle for a long term benefit, just deal with it for the first few weeks/months of WoD and it'll be worth it in the end.

[TyrianFC]

I feel sorry for the 25man guilds with 25 awesome players some have been with each other since tbc now 5 of them will get dropped for no reason.

This sort of quote is stupid.

Anyone whos raided in 25 man guilds cross expansion knows that the turnover rate is pretty high. Its absolutely stupid and laughable to assume that all 25 raiders at the end of one expansion will continue to raid in the next. People always quit/get jobs/get bored/stop raiding/move to a new guild with friends etcetc.

The idea that 'omg 100% of my raiders will continue to raid in WoD and 5 will be cut!' just doesnt happen in reality kids.

[Clogaline]

I can see what they're getting at with boss mechanics, but it's irritating to see that they want to go from "bring the player, not the class!" to "f your 10 mans, bring all the classes!"

I would love to see unique mechanics, but demolishing a LOT of heroic 10 man guilds I don't think is worth it for the game. It's going to alienate way too many people who don't like big groups, don't want to manage twice the people, or who simply don't have the computer power.

It seems like a really bad change without much gain.

(And for anyone wondering, I raid 25 heroic, this change isn't going to hurt me at all)

Changing raid sizes has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of "bring the player, not the class". If anything, larger raid sizes encourage bringing the player over the class, considering the concerns that 10's understandably face with covering a variety of raid buffs.

Not liking big groups, not wanting to manage a raid, or not having computing power don't seem to me to be valid reasons to have the top echelon of raid difficulty catered to you (by you I am speaking generally, not you specifically). If they decide that part of raiding at the highest level should actually include some coordination and logistical challenges, then that's part of what raiding will be and I can't say I disagree.

[Deleted]

I like that change. just need to find 19 reliable people.

might be easier after the whole server connections are done and there arent any lowpop servers anymore. if that is even possible.

but for those servers that are high pop I guess it'll be great.

[Bullettime]

It's a fantastic solution but it's 3-4 years too late. It should have been put into the game in 4.0 instead of the 10/25 split instead of offering 10H as competitive progression content to turn around and axe it after multiple years where players have begun to settle in to their guilds and build relationships.

Forcing it in now has an equal chance to backfire and bite them in the ass as it does to "save" raiding. The whole thing is an unnecessary gamble that Blizzard should not be taking at this point when they should be focused on customer retention. The raiding playerbase is already in decline and while it has a chance to make content better longterm, this could simply throw gas on the fire and incite an exodus which could do irreparable damage to the raiding community.

[Deleted]

I just want it so raiders can raid on the same level. I've played both 25 and 10man for a long time and 90% time, 10man has it harder, so yeah, I can't wait for 20 mythic!

[wrynil]

Pardon.. have that lot actually tried it or dont the like something new? Is it just 'a lot of people' being scared of change? I look forward for this as a 10man guild! Get over it.

[Dom]

Ion gave a perfectly good reason for it.

It's good for the long run, much less work to balance and tweak a difficulty because there is only one.
They will be able to add many different mechanics that 10 man didn't really allow them to (4 tanks perhaps so kinda like Horsemen?)

Pointless if no one will be around to actually attempt the mythic bosses. Ion has no idea how bad the consequences will be. It's arguably worse than if they removed LFR.

[CTwin]

Pointless if no one will be around to actually attempt the mythic bosses. Ion has no idea how bad the consequences will be. It's arguably worse than if they removed LFR.

lol.

so much nope.

Reminder - 1760 guilds killed Hc Lei Shen. Even now with the buff.

Less than 20,000 people. Of which maybe 30% at best will leave?

Man, the amount of fucks that no-one is going to give.

[Deleted]

One heroic raid size is better than two.

[l33t]

Your best solution for 20 man mystic is to overcome your denial phase and start searching for 12-15 new people at the end of MoP. It would be easy, because recruiting is always easy at the end of expansion.

Stop this threads already would you? Blizzard had to stop dat nonsence 10 man raiding has become into. Absurdly hard, class stacking, having to abuse mechanics, pff. 20 man is so much better, both in terms of raid feeling and raid design. You can cry out a river, but the change is already done, and it won't go anywhere. So adapt or good bye, but if you like raiding, you won't find anything even 50% as polished as WoW's raids in the current MMO market.

The only one thing I pity is why, why the hell they didn't make all this changes years ago pre-Cata??? We could have so much better raid experience all this years...

[Kaiarra]

Your best solution for 20 man mystic is to overcome your denial phase and start searching for 12-15 new people at the end of MoP. It would be easy, because recruiting is always easy at the end of expansion.

Oh well then, in that case I'll just go tell my officers that the forums say its easy to recruit, and to magically pull ~12 decent players out of their arses before the expansion - 12 players that none of us want to raid with, and that by inviting, will destroy our guild - adding 12 players is more than our current raiding roster of 11, so we will have more new players than old at that stage... and all this just to be allowed by Bliz to raid heroics next expansion. Sure they'll be dying to get right on helping with that.

15 we could possibly manage assuming a catastrophic amount of players don't leave before the expansion, but not 20. I have no idea what to even do with this expansion, because I know my guys won't be satisfied with just normals, but I also don't think they'd be happy having the guild totally overrun by new guys (assuming we could even find that many decent players out of nowhere which is highly dubious without a guild merge). Even if the stars aligned and we got 20 players from nowhere, I suspect a number of my original guildies would just stop raiding out of their dislike of large scale raid formats and I'd be back to square one...

This whole lure and switch allowing us to run HC 10s for the last 2 expansions then ripping it away, has just sucked away any excitement I had for this expansion - and before someone says it destroys 25-mans too, no... needing to cut/rotate 5 players out of your 25-mans is utterly nothing compared to being asked to recruit 100% more players just to be allowed access to heroics. It's like them saying to 25s that the new heroic format is 50-man raiding, and to deal with recruiting 25 more players or rot in normals - I'll take cutting/rotating 20% of my players over recruiting 100% more players any day.

[lunchbox2042]

It has more to do with the difficulty of balancing mechanics for both sizes then it does people comparing the two races. It's easier to make more compelling hard modes for one raid size than it is to have to balance how a mechanic works in 10 and 25. 10 man guilds should be happy the compromised by making it 20 instead of just making 25 man the norm for the hardest difficulty.

[Eats Compost]

20 was a number chosen specifically for balance and tuning reasons. There will be a short-term upset to raid compositions and groups, and Blizzard acknowledges this, but these teething problems are just outweighed by the design benefits. A singular size is implemented because balancing two raid sizes for heroics was too much, a number between 10 and 25 was chosen to be a compromise, and 20 was chosen from that range because it allows them to make some assumptions about raid composition like "you have one of each class".

[Tailswipe]

lol.

so much nope.

Reminder - 1760 guilds killed Hc Lei Shen. Even now with the buff.

Less than 20,000 people. Of which maybe 30% at best will leave?

Man, the amount of fucks that no-one is going to give.

So you seriously believe that only guilds that have cleared 12/13 HC and are registered on wowprogress have any interest in HC mode?

[CTwin]

So you seriously believe that only guilds that have cleared 12/13 HC and are registered on wowprogress have any interest in HC mode?

Do you seriously think that anything you say is going to make a difference to Blizzard?

Watching Blizzcon, they knew this shitstorm was coming. They have clear answers and a clear reasoning why they went this way. Even if every single 10m heroic guild quit tomorrow - the movement in Subs is absolutely irrelevant compared to the retainment they are going to get with the new life that raiding is being refreshed with.

[MoanaLisa]

It seemed to me as if they aren't really in the mood to change their minds on this. For the record, I don't think that 'stopping 20-man Mythic' is either a good idea or anything other than a waste of time to even try. Better to spend your time figuring out how to adjust to it.

[Einsz]

I am sorry OP but ur idea is horrible and deleting both and starting new 20 man is perfect idea. It will up the competition, bring life to raiding.

[Deleted]

Do you seriously think that anything you say is going to make a difference to Blizzard?

Watching Blizzcon, they knew this shitstorm was coming. They have clear answers and a clear reasoning why they went this way. Even if every single 10m heroic guild quit tomorrow - the movement in Subs is absolutely irrelevant compared to the retainment they are going to get with the new life that raiding is being refreshed with.

If all the 10 man HC guilds quit who exactly are they designing this content for? The 2-3k players that will continue raiding or do you believe that everyone else will suddenly jump into raiding? That will surely be a good use of their resources.