Mythical level - 20man

[lappee]

Harder to organise=harder. You cant simply see these things seperate. All difficulties a format faces adds up into a final sum, you cant see the organisation part seperated from the actual difficulty with a stable raid team taken as granted.

harder to organize, as in harder to get the people you want. It doesnt affect the difficulty of the encounter

At the end of the day who cares what is harder or not Blizzard is not happy with how 10 mans are and decided to make a change for the better of raiding. Tuning for 1 difficulty is much easier and will relieve the headaches of another mode being "Harder" than the other. If your guild dies suck it up and find one of the many many guilds that will be recruiting. Heroic is supposed to be the cutting edge of the game not friend mode, the new Normals and heroics with the flex model are to play with friends not compete for kills on the hardest bosses in the game.

True, i foresaw the change (even tho i had my money on 15man mode) and welcomed it (wanted it to happen). 25man players (assuming its 25man players who wanted to feel superior to 10mans) are just downplaying the difficulties 10mans will have compared to 25mans with the incoming change.

[ChristopherHansen]

And to anyone saying more people do 10 because they love it so much more you have to realize how insanely difficult it is to find 24 people and make a guild in a world where all they have to do is find 9 for equal rewards and achievements. It is very very rare for a new 25 heroic guild to form where as 10 mans come and go, leaving many players forced to do 10man. It is the same reason you see a lot more retail workers than doctors they both want to earn money but the price of entry is much much higher in the medical field than an entry level retail job.

[Deleted]

Harder to organise=harder. You cant simply see these things seperate. All difficulties a format faces adds up into a final sum, you cant see the organisation part seperated from the actual difficulty with a stable raid team taken as granted.

Wow, really? "Please Blizzard, make it HARD to just try the content you are providing, nvm the actual challenge it poses!"

Probably the best representation of the carryraiders attitude I've seen so far.

[Deleted]

And to anyone saying more people do 10 because they love it so much more you have to realize how insanely difficult it is to find 24 people and make a guild in a world where all they have to do is find 9 for equal rewards and achievements. It is very very rare for a new 25 heroic guild to form where as 10 mans come and go, leaving many players forced to do 10man. It is the same reason you see a lot more retail workers than doctors they both want to earn money but the price of entry is much much higher in the medical field than an entry level retail job.

And you think being forced to find 19 more people is going to be that easy?

[Deleted]

Stop pretending 10 man is harder, or even challenging. Unless you're a bad/casual, it isn't.

You're just such a mongoloid if you're saying 10 man is faceroll

[kamuimac]

At the end of the day who cares what is harder or not Blizzard is not happy with how 10 mans are and decided to make a change for the better of raiding. .

ye because when 25-50 % of hc raiding scene will unsub it will be really so much better for raiding alltoghether ... -_-

[Xavator]

It was made this way to keep the difficulty and allow the scalable system to be introduce. If you think about it, you'll see that is better this way.

[Deleted]

Since they made 10 and 25 man equal, heres a list based on personal experience (i've done both difficulties "early" on in each tier)

Cataclysm
T11 (BWD/tBoT/TotFW): 10man was harder
T12 (Firelands): 25man was harder
T13 (Dragonsoul): 25man was harder

Mists of Pandaria
T14 (MSV/HoF/ToES): Equal (hearsay, never actually did any 25man hc content that tier)
T15 (ToT): Equal
T16 (SoO): 10man was harder (not that much experience, as im casual now, but some method players agreed with it after trying it out themselves)


So in the start 10mans were easier, apart from their first try with T11 but since then the trend is pretty clear. Saying that 10mans are just simply easier is false nowdays, people went for 10mans due to it being easier to organize (any guild leader/officer will agree on that)
And for people quoting GC tweet, hes talking about current normal mode difficulty between 10 and 25. It just cant be compared to heroic ones)

Hagara was a Normal boss in 25H while in 10H was a fucking hell of a heroic boss, lightining phase required at least 2 pet classes and a specific patter of positions nearly centimeter based, in 25 was "rolf all get in two lines" and phase was over.
Icy phase in 10H required you to take the boss away from the raid and pray to god that she would never cast shattered ice on the people who had ice lance debuff, it was basically a one-shot mechanic that wasn't avoidable expect for the fact that she had less probability if she was facing only the tank and not the rest of the raid, this problem didn't exist at all in 25H, they couldn't even expericence this kind of a mechanic.

I agree with the rest of your post.

[willemh]

harder to organize, as in harder to get the people you want. It doesnt affect the difficulty of the encounter.

As I said, you cant see those two seperated, harder is harder, doesnt matter where that challenge comes from.

[Deleted]

As I said, you cant see those two seperated, harder is harder, doesnt matter where that challenge comes from.

So 10 man is harder because it's more difficult to gear people up, 5 ilvls difference between same progress guilds according to wowprogress.
Harder is harder.

[Nobleshield]

Wouldn't it be wise to reduce all the other modes to a maximum of 20 players instead of 25 too?

Perhaps, but I don't think they'd have to. The ideal size to shoot for 6.0 Normal and 6.0 Heroic is now 20 (as that's the size for 5.4 Heroic/6.0 Mythic) BUT keeping it at 25 max for those makes sense because ideally you'd have 21+ people on your roster (standbys/backups) so this way you can bring all of them too without organizing multiple runs, although if I understand the loot system correctly you could also go back with some alts, some mains who have already killed the boss, and kill that boss again (although anyone who has already killed the boss won't be eligible for loot).

[willemh]

Wow, really? "Please Blizzard, make it HARD to just try the content you are providing, nvm the actual challenge it poses!"

Probably the best representation of the carryraiders attitude I've seen so far.

Don't worry, you will manage to get over it, one day. Everything is going to be allright.

- - - Updated - - -

So 10 man is harder because it's more difficult to gear people up, 5 ilvls difference between same progress guilds according to wowprogress.
Harder is harder.

The tuning of 10 and 25 keeps this ilvl difference in mind. Anyway, I believe we had enough 10 vs 25 debates and luckily Blizzard agreed and decided to put an end to it.

[Terridon]

The tuning of 10 and 25 keeps this ilvl difference in mind. Anyway, I believe we had enough 10 vs 25 debates and luckily Blizzard agreed and decided to put an end to it.

Source please, because i've seen people claim that several times, but i haven't seen the slightest trace of hint from any bluepost/twitter/anything that this should be true.

[Lanaiya]

many of the heroic raids have been easier for 10 man guilds, and that's why so many people went to 10 man guild instead of 25.

Blizzard isn't breaking anything, they're undoing their stupid decision in Cataclysm that saw 10/25 heroic raiding on the same level.

LOL, you guys are so clueless. Stop pretending that 25 mans are more difficult. More difficult to put together and organize, yes, but then the actual raid gives you allowances for getting that far. Example: Not having the proportionate amount of Imploding Energy swirls on Malkorok (25 man should have 1-2 more than they do); not to mention many more players to fill the same sized room. My example is that of an easy fight, but then makes it easy to point out details.
Blizzard tried to balance the two versions of the raid, but in the end nothing beats having 15 more people with all sorts of extra cd's and abilties. 25 man is lenient on an individual players ability while 10 man will better test the skill of the player.

[Spl4sh3r]

Just like 40 became 25, and 25 became 10/25, and 10/25 became 10n/10hc/25n/25hc you'll get the fuck over it.

More like 40man/20man/10man became 25man/10man became 25manN/25manH/10manN/10manH became now 10-25man/20man. So basicly over vanilla and five expansion we changed modes three times only.

[Deleted]

Here comes GC to pour some gasoline:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...97124749545472
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...99300024639488

[Deleted]

Heroic raiding content is already heavily subsidised by the subs of people running normal and LFR. It is clearly not financially feasible for Bliz to continue to spend money developing/balancing content for both 10 and 25 man.....So any argument for continuing the status quo is completely irrelevant it cant happen. The only question left is what is the correct size for the new raid? In an ideal world (1 big server where recruitment wasnt an issue, hopefully we are moving in that direction somewhat with connected realms) the main consideration is what size of raid would ensure maximum inclusiveness across all class types.....10 man raiding just doesn't cut the mustard if you look at the DPS composition of all 10 man heroic guilds there is far more extreme class stacking than is the case in 25 man guilds.

I think Blizzard for once has pretty much got this just about right......

[Nobleshield]

Here comes GC to pour some gasoline:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...97124749545472
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...99300024639488

That first one is... a little disturbing. 10m heroics might be more like current heroics? So it's not exactly the equivalent of 5.x Normal then is it? Unless they go with ideas that have been pitches previously such as adding in the extra heroic mechanics without the huge increase of health/damage which I'd actually be okay with.

[Dukenukem]

I understand all they want with the new raid structure and agree with it, only thing that Is not making sense for me is why it is 20 and not 25....just to say "look we dont cater to 25 they must adapt too".
everything else is at 25cap why not mythic.

[Deleted]

The tuning of 10 and 25 keeps this ilvl difference in mind. Anyway, I believe we had enough 10 vs 25 debates and luckily Blizzard agreed and decided to put an end to it.

They never said that, furthermore they never rescaled 25 man tuning when they introduced -forged, and guess what, that's an ilvl increase.