Mythical level - 20man

[XyroN]

Although I personally have no doubts that I could beat the one player they have that's relevant to me

What an unexpected reply.

[Deleted]

So 10 man normal guilds that do better than they expect will be left with...nothing to do? I don't get how this is a good thing, 10 mans have no way to progress beyond the 'normal' difficulty without disbanding and splitting up or merging. No current 10 man heroic guilds will be able to do the difficulty mode they currently do..is that progress?

[Deleted]

So 10 man normal guilds that do better than they expect will be left with...nothing to do? I don't get how this is a good thing, 10 mans have no way to progress beyond the 'normal' difficulty without disbanding and splitting up or merging. No current 10 man heroic guilds will be able to do the difficulty mode they currently do..is that progress?

That is exactly why they made it flexible in 6.0. So you can recruit while you progress through heroics(old normals) and don't have to leave anyone out!

[lappee]

Except that there isn't enough 25 mans around at the given level .

yet every 25man keeps recruitment open at all times, that kinda says otherwise

I think I did mention garrosh as one of the two fights this tier where you can "whore". Namely him, and Paragons ;p. I don't see any way to effectively "whore" on the remaining bosses. From the top -
Immerseus has adds you want to kill, aoeing/dpsing them is not whoring, it needs to be done.
Protectors has 3x adds up at a time, cleaving/aoeing is effective dps as long as you adhere to the order you want to push the bosses, and shortens the overall encounter.
Norushen has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Sha of pride has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Galakras, adds and AOE galore.
Juggernaut is pure singletarget and has no way for you to whore.
Dark shamans has adds that needs to die, not whoring. Difference in output depending on tanking them together or apart for cleave, I guess.
Nazgrim has adds that needs to die, aoe'ing/cleaving not whoring.
Malkorok has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Spoils is a giant freaking cleave-FEST.
Thok has bats that needs to be AOE'd down ASAP, still not whoring.
Siegecrafter needs bombs aoe'd, not whoring.

Immerseus: hybrids should heal rather than dps - whoring
Norushen: Getting purified before a better dps - whoring
Sha of pride: Staying put instead of being one that release people - whoring
Galakras: Staying on ground always instead of going to towers (even if he would be the best in a tower) - whoring
Juggernaut: Staying in "safespot" at all times, even when you should move - whoring
Dark shamans: Killing adds with bad aoe instead of letting people better suited for the job do it - whoring
Nazgrim: AOEing first adds with bad aoe instead of letting people better suited for the job do it - whoring
Malkorok: nothing
Spoils: nothing really
Thok: same as any aoe said previously - whoring
Siegecrafter: refusal of belt, AoE's said previously etc - whoring

That leaves paragons where AOE is useless due to them healing back up, and garrosh where P1 adds can be killed off with Iron Stars.
But yea, the entire reasoning for what I said basicly is that people seem to regard Paragon as some kind of "demi-gods" that everyone should suck up to because they managed to 1 heal Garrosh and they clear content fast. No offense ment with it, really, but as said, 1 healing garrosh being more consistent says more about the level of DPS they could put out compared to their competition like Sanitas, than it did anything else.

They're not demigods, they're just the best raiders for 10man there is.

[tithian]

This change can only lead to the raiding player pool getting smaller, which is always bad news no matter the raid size you prefer.

A good deal of the 10 man guilds will implode and disband because of this and the remaining raiding population will be worse off. Recruiting a couple of patches down the road will be a nightmare. The same thing happened during Cataclysm when a bunch of people decided they didn't want to bother any more. I know because my guild had to replace people that were burned out and needed to recruit 3-4 people to be able to safely raid (bringing a roster to 12-13). I was not the one doing the recruiting, but it was hell. The whole process took about 3-4 months before the situation stabilized and new recruits were found that would fit with the rest.

The only people that benefit from this are the top hardcore guilds that get a steady stream of raiding recruits of high quality while also getting a uniform race to world first. The rest of you will go back to poaching tanks and healers from each other (kinda like BC) since the other real alternative will be recruiting the ultra-casual LFR/normal raiders that want better epics.

[Deleted]

Wrong. A good DPS is a DPS that does their job when you ask them, AND put out great DPS. A person who just does their job without worrying about personal output at the same time is hardly better than a trained monkey. Anyone can -
Handle encounter mechanics.
Ring gongs on Atramedes.
Punt meteors on Ragnaros.
Throw balls on Sha of Fear.
Handle "lei shi"-stacks.
CC mobs on Windlord.
Kite Pheromones.
Kick turtles.

And many, many more without losing any significant amount of DPS. How much you lose out on will depend on your skill as a player.
But that aside, this tier hasn't really had any "shit" jobs that someone has to do. Perhaps apart from killing engineers on garrosh, I can't really come up with any.

this quote is really why u will never be^^ i'm glad and it's sooo off topic i can't more

[ihatepeople]

I think that this is a great change. Sure there will be some growing pains, but now for heroic guilds there will be ONE size and fights can be tuned properly and an added bonus is that there will be no more bitching about which size is harder/requires more skill. It puts some heroic guilds in some sort of a bind until they work out logistics, but it's a very good change overall. I think that the majority of heroic guilds will be able to handle this change.

For the heroic 25m guild players/members that are bitching about dropping people: you're not "dropping" people per say, you just have to have people swap in and out for bosses. There's no reason that you would have to just chop 5 people off of your raiding roster. Attrition still happens and people still have things come up that prevents them from making raids, so axing those 5 people would be just stupid. To the heroic 10m guild players/members that are complaining: Yea it does kinda suck, but any half-way decent heroic guild should be able to recruit 10 more people (less than that if you have a 12-15 man roster or something like that) between now and the new expansion.

TLDR....this change is great in the grand scheme of things for heroic raiders

[willemh]

I think I did mention garrosh as one of the two fights this tier where you can "whore". Namely him, and Paragons ;p. I don't see any way to effectively "whore" on the remaining bosses. From the top -
Immerseus has adds you want to kill, aoeing/dpsing them is not whoring, it needs to be done.
Protectors has 3x adds up at a time, cleaving/aoeing is effective dps as long as you adhere to the order you want to push the bosses, and shortens the overall encounter.
Norushen has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Sha of pride has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Galakras, adds and AOE galore.
Juggernaut is pure singletarget and has no way for you to whore.
Dark shamans has adds that needs to die, not whoring. Difference in output depending on tanking them together or apart for cleave, I guess.
Nazgrim has adds that needs to die, aoe'ing/cleaving not whoring.
Malkorok has adds that needs to die, not whoring.
Spoils is a giant freaking cleave-FEST.
Thok has bats that needs to be AOE'd down ASAP, still not whoring.
Siegecrafter needs bombs aoe'd, not whoring.

That leaves paragons where AOE is useless due to them healing back up, and garrosh where P1 adds can be killed off with Iron Stars.
But yea, the entire reasoning for what I said basicly is that people seem to regard Paragon as some kind of "demi-gods" that everyone should suck up to because they managed to 1 heal Garrosh and they clear content fast. No offense ment with it, really, but as said, 1 healing garrosh being more consistent says more about the level of DPS they could put out compared to their competition like Sanitas, than it did anything else.


Good, then you know how I feel . Although I personally have no doubts that I could beat the one player they have that's relevant to me (my main is a hunter, so Devai, in this case). But oh well, opinions will be opinions I guess.

You're so wrong it hurts.

Examples of whoring for each encounter.

Immersus-->Running to the place with the highest concentration of adds instead of staying in your pre-assigned spot, aoeing the small adds in phase 1 like a mad man while they get killed off by the tank anyway.

Protectors-->Not single target focussing the Mark of Anguish, but instead keeping dots up on all the bosses, causing issues with double transition phases and might cause people to die from the anguish when you run out of cooldowns, also nerfs their dps significantly because most classes will be stuck in deterrence/iceblock etc while tanking the anguish not being able to dps anything.

Norushen-->Multidotting adds while you have 0 corruption, you do 125% damage to the boss itself, while others who arn't yet purfied only do 25% damage to the boss itself (and full damage to the adds, which in turn gets transfered to the boss), leave the adds to them instead and use your single target dps on the boss. As long as the non purified dps can dps adds they do 100% damage, and you do 125% damage. If you zerg adds they are stuck doing 25% damage. Also stuff like entering first as a shadow priest who is clearly more suited to multidot adds while letting the strong single target dps enter first.

Sha of Pride--> There are so many things I cant even start to list them. 1) Not soaking rifts 2) Not helping to free prisons 3)Aoeing reflections (which have 0 abilities and dont hit for ANYTHING and will be cleaved down by the tank anyway) 4) Not switching to banished players.

Galakras--> 1) Aoe dpsing the adds instead of single targetting the 2 type of adds that actually have to die in this fight, the bonecrushers and the tidal shamans. If you are aoeing like a mad man with ineffective aoe untill the small trash adds die and then are still stuck with a bonecrusher or tidal shaman at 75% hp all effective cleave goes to waste. 2) Not switching to banners/healing tide totems, but instead continueing aoe.

Iron Jug--> 1) Trying to dps the boss in phase 2, making the job for your healers so much more harder. 2) Just tanking all the mortars/ground spikes instead of moving from them.

Dark Shamans--> Standing in stupit possitions just to have higher dps uptime, spawning storms in completely wrong locations.

Nazgrim-->1)dpsing in defensive stance (this is pretty much the only way to get rank 1 on this fight, while it goes COMPLETELY against tactics). 2) Not single target focussing stuff like banners/shamans that actually need to die fast bust instead randomly dpsing anything that gives you best dps uptime.

Malkorok-->1)Let others soak all pools 2) Ignore stacking up in phase 2 (fine if you solo tank it ofcourse) 3) Aoeing the small adds like a madman while there are people that can far more effectively cleave them.

Spoils-->Nothing much here I guess, maiby dropping bombs not nicely in a corner but on some silly possition so you have to move less.

Thok-->Aoeing bats like a madman

Siegecrafter-->Not switching properly to drills/not kiting fire in the most safe path/let others handle the belt duty

Paragons-->Obvious

Garrosh-->Obvious

[Dracodraco]

We obviously have different point of views of what whoring is, Willemh. Half of the things you're suggesting will cause wipes, which won't get you any ranks at all for whoring. It might just be me, but I only see "whoring" as being something that can be done without putting the raid at risk to inflate your own numbers - EG, stuff like keeping dots rolling on the wrong Meg head or the wrong paragon, getting the feed buff first on ji kun, etc.
Obvious raid wipe mechanics such as not soaking pools on Malkorok, or not freeing prisons/soaking rifts aren't even on the level of "whoring". It's fucking retarded. And I know for a fact that getting top 10 ranks without the use of such "shifty" tactics are more than doable. Heck, have plenty of people doing it on a regular basis in my guild, and have done so myself.

Also, are you 10 man? Because in 25 man, outranging juggernaut in P2 is very, very uncommon. There really is no "added strain" to healing everyone bunched up in an area out of range of it, or close to it. For thok, you want the bats dead ASAP. Going full out AOE on them is the way to get through the encounter, to the point where we had to assign BOP's to ele shamans etc to blow them up.

[TooMuch]

Dracodraco, I really like how you talk down top guilds like Paragon. But tell me why you haven't completed 14/14 heroic yet since you alone are so imba that you can carry the whole group, also with raiding 5 days/18 hours per week? But to give you an answer: it's a group effort not just one person ranking 1 on logs.

[Dracodraco]

Dracodraco, I really like how you talk down top guilds like Paragon. But tell me why you haven't completed 14/14 heroic yet since you alone are so imba that you can carry the whole group, also with raiding 5 days/18 hours per week? But to give you an answer: it's a group effort not just one person ranking 1 on logs.

Oh, you and I know very well it's a team effort. I'm not sure when I ever claimed otherwise?
As said, this whole "talking down"-thing, is basicly because I'm sick and tired of fanboys who can't comprehend how the game actually works worship and suck up to guilds like Paragon =P.
But hey, just to make sure everyone knows exactly what I mean:
They're great players, they work well together as a team, and they obviously knows how to raid. They're among the best of their classes (some of them), but only verdisha falls within the top 10. The rest are "just" good.
I'm also not 100% sure what the fact that we have a 5day/18hr raid week has to do with us not having completed the tier yet. Kill should hopefully come tonight or tomorrow, but to my knowledge, no guild with less than a 20 hr schedule has gotten a garrosh kill in 25 man as of yet. Shouldn't really be so surprising to you, that considered =P.

[Isheria]

Maybe one day you'll understand that whoring dps/hps for ranks doesn't mean you are a good player, there are many more variables that separate a great player from an average, dps/hps ain't one of them.

[XyroN]

=P you must be the =P best guild in the world then =P

[cFortyfive]

For thok, you want the bats dead ASAP.

Funny how killing adds that have the potential to wipe your raid is called whoring nowadays.

[Dracodraco]

Maybe one day you'll understand that whoring dps/hps for ranks doesn't mean you are a good player, there are many more variables that separate a great player from an average, dps/hps ain't one of them.

Sure, there's tons of variables APART from that. But output very much is a part of it. You can't really deny that, considering the entire point of progress bosses is meeting enrage checks for DPS players. Performance and DPS go hand in hand, and some people are naturally better at one or the other. Being good at both makes for a great player, being great at both makes for an excellent player.

Funny how killing adds that have the potential to wipe your raid is called whoring nowadays.

I know, right <.<?

[willemh]

We obviously have different point of views of what whoring is, Willemh. Half of the things you're suggesting will cause wipes, which won't get you any ranks at all for whoring. It might just be me, but I only see "whoring" as being something that can be done without putting the raid at risk to inflate your own numbers - EG, stuff like keeping dots rolling on the wrong Meg head or the wrong paragon, getting the feed buff first on ji kun, etc.
Obvious raid wipe mechanics such as not soaking pools on Malkorok, or not freeing prisons/soaking rifts aren't even on the level of "whoring". It's fucking retarded. And I know for a fact that getting top 10 ranks without the use of such "shifty" tactics are more than doable. Heck, have plenty of people doing it on a regular basis in my guild, and have done so myself.

Also, are you 10 man? Because in 25 man, outranging juggernaut in P2 is very, very uncommon. There really is no "added strain" to healing everyone bunched up in an area out of range of it, or close to it. For thok, you want the bats dead ASAP. Going full out AOE on them is the way to get through the encounter, to the point where we had to assign BOP's to ele shamans etc to blow them up.

Now let me tell you a story about how our tank achieved rank 1 overall dps in worldoflogs on heroic Sha of Pride (the rank was obtained 4 weeks back, hes rank 5 overall atm). And show you how this really isnt because he has so much skill.

Because we failed terribly on the encounter we kept loosing and loosing people in the end of the fight. We had very low dps in the last phase which made us have 2 waves of reflections in the last phase, and the 2nd wave was very large. Our main tank got to 100% pride towards the end of the fight, causing him to deal 50% more damage untill he would be mind controlled on the next aoe. The whole raid was pretty much dead and he popped all his cooldowns and AoEd the 2 waves of reflections with his 50% more damage buff like a mad man achieving a burst of 2million+ dps towards the end and managed to finish off the boss. This put him to a average of 650k dps for the encounter. Now trust me, getting your tank mind controlled and half the raid dead with 2 waves of reflections bashing on your tank really isnt the way to go for this encounter if you just want to clear the place. But trust me, nobody is going to beat his dps without doing something similar.

I dont see how half the things I linked cause wipes. Raiding in 25man, like you, it doesnt really cause a wipe if you as 1 individual slack on pools on malkorok, or if you as 1 individual dont soak rifts or dont switch to banished players on sha of pride. Nor is it very likely you will cause a wipe if you are the only person dpsing nazgrim during his defensive stance. Actually none of the things I linked would wipe the raid tbh if the other 24 people did their jobs properly.

I have had some ranks 1 as arcane mage, and when I want to rank my mindset changes completely. I stand in stuff I shoudnt stand in untill my cauterise procs, stressing out the healers, I ignore mechanics I shoudnt ignore, etc. And I really want to go against your statement that 'top 10 overall ranks are easily achieved without whoring at the cost of the others in your raid'. Because I believe this is simply not true. Maiby at the start of a raid instance when people are still gearing up and you are far ahead on gear compared to others. But towards the end of a patch, where logs and top dps has matured I strongly believe its impossible to just show up in there without whoring to the highest degree (ignoring mechanics/tanking damage/dpsing stuff that doesnt need to be dpsed). Goodluck ranking on a fight like sha of pride without aoeing the reflections like a mad man as a mage instead of letting your destro locks get a shitton of embers from them to spam chaos bolts and havok soulburns on sha while your tanks cleave them down (and no, these adds dont have the potential of wiping your raid at all and can slowly be cleaved down by classes that actually GAIN single target dps from cleaving/aoeing instead of loosing single target dps while aoeing), trust me, its not going to happen.

[lappee]

Sure, there's tons of variables APART from that. But output very much is a part of it. You can't really deny that, considering the entire point of progress bosses is meeting enrage checks for DPS players. Performance and DPS go hand in hand, and some people are naturally better at one or the other. Being good at both makes for a great player, being great at both makes for an excellent player.

The fact you're missing here, is that players dont put their 100% focus when things are on farm, unless they want to rank in WoL (like verdisha). Which is the reason one should check the highest log of one person without whoring / ridiculous buffs.

[godded]

Arguably I am currently in a guild that raids 25man heroic and thus cutting down to a 20man roster will only be a social issue.
Nevertheless I feel it is a much needed changed. Even though Blizzard is nowadays pretty good at equalizing 10man and 25man, in order to create truly challenging content (again) without having to re-balance everything on 2 ends.

I personally hope and think that the content will be very stiff, because with a newly named heroic mode i think it will be truly heroic!

We had 40man raids, we had 25man raids, we had 10&25, hard mdoes, then heroic raids etc. Everytime it was a major QQ fest (trust me I was there for all of them since vanilla) and everytime the truly great players came together and made it work. For every 10man guild that wants to raid on a higher level there is another 10man guild that wants to do the same + there are the 5 from the 25man roster that are eager to raid and cba being rotated so often (specially considering that the average 25man guild has about 32+ raid ready members).

You will get to bring fresh blood into your ranks and you will be better for it. I welcome the change, I got many burned out raiders in our 25man that dont mind the fact that they can raid heroic with us on a casual schedule next expac and dont have to commit to 20man mythic.

[Dracodraco]

Now let me tell you a story about how our tank achieved rank 1 overall dps in worldoflogs on heroic Sha of Pride (the rank was obtained 4 weeks back, hes rank 5 overall atm). And show you how this really isnt because he has so much skill.

Because we failed terribly on the encounter we kept loosing and loosing people in the end of the fight. We had very low dps in the last phase which made us have 2 waves of reflections in the last phase, and the 2nd wave was very large. Our main tank got to 100% pride towards the end of the fight, causing him to deal 50% more damage untill he would be mind controlled on the next aoe. The whole raid was pretty much dead and he popped all his cooldowns and AoEd the 2 waves of reflections with his 50% more damage buff like a mad man achieving a burst of 2million+ dps towards the end and managed to finish off the boss. This put him to a average of 650k dps for the encounter. Now trust me, getting your tank mind controlled and half the raid dead with 2 waves of reflections bashing on your tank really isnt the way to go for this encounter if you just want to clear the place. But trust me, nobody is going to beat his dps without doing something similar.

And that's a one-of event. Which is why it's much better to look at overall rankings, than it is to look at a single boss fight. Overall, counting all his ranks together, your tank is rank 44. So you are correct - you can get a stroke of luck on an encounter and get a great rank. But unless you do so for EVERY rank, people that are more consistently better, will be ranking higher.

I dont see how half the things I linked cause wipes. Raiding in 25man, like you, it doesnt really cause a wipe if you as 1 individual slack on pools on malkorok, or if you as 1 individual dont soak rifts or dont switch to banished players on sha of pride. Nor is it very likely you will cause a wipe if you are the only person dpsing nazgrim during his defensive stance. Actually none of the things I linked would wipe the raid tbh if the other 24 people did their jobs properly.

But 1 person doing it leads to everyone wanting to do it, leads to wipes. Also, not handling mechanics correctly very much WILL cause wipes. People are placed around the room on malkorok to intercept zones, if you do not intercept it, raidwipe. You should know this, you're progressing it.
Either way, the mentality of "one person can do it" is still hilarious. It's not whoring, it's counteracting your raid, and ranks are and will be achieved without such shit going on .

I have had some ranks 1 as arcane mage, and when I want to rank my mindset changes completely. I stand in stuff I shoudnt stand in untill my cauterise procs, stressing out the healers, I ignore mechanics I shoudnt ignore, etc. And I really want to go against your statement that 'top 10 overall ranks are easily achieved without whoring at the cost of the others in your raid'. Because I believe this is simply not true. Maiby at the start of a raid instance when people are still gearing up and you are far ahead on gear compared to others. But towards the end of a patch, where logs and top dps has matured I strongly believe its impossible to just show up in there without whoring to the highest degree (ignoring mechanics/tanking damage/dpsing stuff that doesnt need to be dpsed). Goodluck ranking on a fight like sha of pride without aoeing the reflections like a mad man as a mage instead of letting your destro locks get a shitton of embers from them to spam chaos bolts and havok soulburns on sha while your tanks cleave them down (and no, these adds dont have the potential of wiping your raid at all and can slowly be cleaved down by classes that actually GAIN single target dps from cleaving/aoeing instead of loosing single target dps while aoeing), trust me, its not going to happen.

Perhaps when we're late in the gearing cycle and everyone's BiS and the first 200 or so guilds have killed Garrosh. Right now, it's very much doable .

The fact you're missing here, is that players dont put their 100% focus when things are on farm, unless they want to rank in WoL (like verdisha). Which is the reason one should check the highest log of one person without whoring / ridiculous buffs.

Uh. Isn't that what proraiders does, though? It checks for your best log of every fight and adds the points together to give an overall view. It'll fall if you don't care about maintaining your performance outside of progress, obviously, but with hidden logs and such, we'll never really have any proof of how well players do then, apart from "yea that dude's the fucking best man"-word-of-mouth.
Or do you mean find the persons very best log and go from that, on one fight only? Not 100% sure I understood :<.

[lappee]

Uh. Isn't that what proraiders does, though? It checks for your best log of every fight and adds the points together to give an overall view. It'll fall if you don't care about maintaining your performance outside of progress, obviously, but with hidden logs and such, we'll never really have any proof of how well players do then, apart from "yea that dude's the fucking best man"-word-of-mouth.
Or do you mean find the persons very best log and go from that, on one fight only? Not 100% sure I understood :<.

It needs to check whether theres whoring in the logs or not, imo. If it doesnt then in my eyes WoL rankings are just e-peen whoring meters