Mythical level - 20man

[lappee]

Why do you add that in the end? Can't carry anyone in a world first guild at all, nomatter 25 or 10.

Can't wait for 20m so we get rid off people like you.

Because there's always skill differences, even in the top guilds. In 10 mans it tends to be smaller due to smaller amount of players but trust me when I say this, you do carry 1-5 players in 25man (talking from experience)

[lappee]

The only kind of WoL ranking that interests me personally is comparing speed kills between guilds, everything else is totally irrelevant in my opinion.

Speed of clears* because speed kills take extra time to set up

[Damnitbobby]

People have been asking for this a long time, 1 raid size.
Will be pretty boring though, no more hate threads about 10 vs 25 man

FLEX 10-25 HEROIC > MYTHIC There ya go enjoy lol.

[Sonnillon]

Please cut back on the X can whore that, this can be done like that, that guild is full Y etc stuff. Stick to pros and cons and general discussion about Mythic 20 man ^^

[Deleted]

Even tho at this time i have no idea what my guild will do to fix us up (10 man ), i guess we just gotta make the best of it.
No fucking way i'm going to be doing normals for 6+ months at a time.

[bewsh]

LOL, you guys are so clueless. Stop pretending that 25 mans are more difficult. More difficult to put together and organize, yes, but then the actual raid gives you allowances for getting that far. Example: Not having the proportionate amount of Imploding Energy swirls on Malkorok (25 man should have 1-2 more than they do); not to mention many more players to fill the same sized room. My example is that of an easy fight, but then makes it easy to point out details.
Blizzard tried to balance the two versions of the raid, but in the end nothing beats having 15 more people with all sorts of extra cd's and abilties. 25 man is lenient on an individual players ability while 10 man will better test the skill of the player.

it has nothing at all to do with fucking skill.

the select encounters everyone is citing are *broken* in 10m due to their inability to scale.

They were not designed to be 10M fights. Ever. If they had been, there would not be such a drastic difference in execution of the mechanics.

[Soulstrike]

Question!!

since mythic has its own separate lockout does that mean you cant skip bosses like we did in past tier?? (example skipping troll council and go do iron qon)

i know Soo had nice linear difficulty but previous tiers didnt (im looking at you vizer /shakefist)

anyways its not a concern but it does make the whole progression interesting :P

[Dracodraco]

Question!!

since mythic has its own separate lockout does that mean you cant skip bosses like we did in past tier?? (example skipping troll council and go do iron qon)

i know Soo had nice linear difficulty but previous tiers didnt (im looking at you vizer /shakefist)

anyways its not a concern but it does make the whole progression interesting :P

Theoretically, yes. There is no toggling "normal mode" on and off, so unless they make the boss less linear (think ICC and Ulduar), you will be forced to go in a straight line.
It also does raise the question, "what about clear ups?"
It'll probably change the "farming" during progress quite a bit - you'd be doing normal mode the first evening to get everyone tier and trinkets, then straight on to heroic farm, and keep on progressing right untill raid's over mon/tues (depending on US/EU). I'd actually prefer this a lot - how many here has put off 1 hr to clear up 2-3 remaining normal bosses to squeeze in more progress, then end up not getting the kills because of derp? Or on the other hand, putting 2 hrs aside for clearing, then doing it in 1, and wasting an hour? <---- this guy!

[ComputerNerd]

Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.

That is what it should have been in the first place, a single size for the top-level raiding of a given tier.

Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.
I understand why there was the 10 vs 25m split, to be as inclusive as possible but in the end a variety of issues simply messed it up.
Partly the community, partly the fundamental flaw in trying to balance the two.

[caervek]

Yes this will be disruptive, but it was long overdue.
The "pinnacle" of raiding was an utter mess due to the 25 vs 10 balance issues and constant arguments over difficulty/gear.

The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."

Blizzard are now doing what they should have done a long time ago.

Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits

[Deleted]

The problem is though that it's not the "pinnacle" their messing with, we're not simply talking about Sinestra or Raiden, were talking about all heroic bosses so this is going to impact casuals just as much as hardcores. Somebody did the math and 20,300 ten man guilds killed Lei Shen and progressed into Heroic ToT the quote was "it's not something that only impacts the world top 100 elitists, there are a LOT of people who don't play enough to finish a heroic tier but are still good enough to get a few heroic bosses down later in the patch cycle. This is such a silly move by Blizzard, flex mode was a really good way to make the lower end of raiding more accessible, now they are working to make the top end more exclusive, it's retarded. They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."

I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.

One part in particular that I disagree with:

They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall."

The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.
Making recruitment easier via better tools would be ok. But making/keeping recruitment easy by keeping small numbers, or even making them smaller (e.g. i heard lately from someone, he would want nh/hc to be expanded down to 5 players, because they don't have 10 in their guild) would definitively hurt raiding. On one panel Ian Hazzikostas said explicitly, that they had some mechanics in mind in the past, which they just could not implement for 10 players. Only implementing them for 25 would lead to an unbalanced content. Making different raids for both sizes would be a waste of ressources.

Well technically their doing the opposite as less than 5% of heroic guilds are 25 man so that would have been the format to kill, but that's not really the issue here I would prefer they didn't kill either just to make their job easier/less involving and increase profits

I agree there, it makes their job easier. The question is: Does this result in a better balanced endgame, and in a better experience for the players? I think it will do.

[Deleted]

I disagree with the quote you bring. They want everyone to be able to see all the content and the connected story without putting in to much effort. Best example for this is lfr. But on the other hand, they still want at least a little bit of exclusivity for the cutting edge progress. An example are the cutting edge / server first feats of strength.

about 1% clear it on HC, less than say 5 does a few bosses in there, how much more exclusive do you want it to be?

The only ways to encourage more guilds to get into heroic would be: to make them easier, or make it easier to get the people together.
Heroic (and in WoD mythic) is the hardest difficulty of raiding. Making it easier would take away the content for the best progress-oriented guilds. And though they are a very small minority of the WoW playerbase in general, I think that the repercussions on the whole community would be quite big. And I think the vast majority on this forum would agree that dumbing down the highest difficulty of raids is bad, just so that everyone can see not only the raid, but also the highest difficulty mode.

And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.
not harder content.
larger hurdles to get in.
this wont make content one whit harder.
but it will reduce the amount of people doing them.
Those things are Bad.
making it lol content would be bad, but making it require 20 people is also bad.
case and point mythic is now 50 people to be truly epic, most peoples computers cant handle that let alone the server but thats the the same thing for 25 as for 10 to 20 so please get it Through your skull It Is A Bad Idea.

[Deleted]

And i would love if you could manage to comprehend the difference between keeping things as is and making it harder to get into them.

I very well understand the difference. If you look at the quote I was answering to, it said:

They should be encouraging more guilds to make the step up into the first few heroic bosses, not gating them off behind a massive recruitment wall.

I was explicitly answering to that, if you read the underlined part you'll understand my post and why it was referring to making it harder / easier to get into.

[Akraen]

I was a guild leader during TBC, and let me tell ya, Karazhan made the conversion from 40 to 25 very difficult. Servers completely transformed.

Our guild struggled because no matter how I shuffled up players, there was an A-Team instantly. Was a lot of drama. We survived well, but so many other guilds didn't.

I don't think this will be too tough. Healthy guilds with good leadership will survive. Cliques will die. That's going to be healthy for the game

[Deleted]

FLEX 10-25 HEROIC > MYTHIC

No, no and NO over and over again.

This would be a total and utter CLUSTER FUCK and would be impossible to tune.

The ENTIRE reason they are doing this is that they can tune the hardest fights in the game better.

[Nobleshield]

Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?

[Deleted]

Easy solution: Just get rid of heroic (6.0 Mythic) entirely. After all if such a tiny minority will end up doing it now with it killing all the 10H guilds, then who really cares about it? Right?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.

[Nobleshield]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Ion Hazzikostas and his team actually enjoys the World First race, and so do many many people. Why do you think people in topguilds has so many viewers on twitch, and why is there so many people watching their videos on the bosses?

Ofcourse it's hard for me to say since I play in a topguild, but from what I've heard from feedback and people talking to us in general. Many people would actually quit if there wasn't a top to look up to, something people can aim for as a goal.

I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.

[Deleted]

I know, I was being sarcastic because of the doom-and-gloom over Mythic . Personally I don't care a lick about the top tier of guilds, and think that "looking up to people" in a game is laughable, but it doesn't affect me at all. The number of people calling end of the world though because they can finally balance around a set difficulty and have more interesting mechanics, though, is just crazy.

If you care so little then why do you even have to make such a comment? Looking up to people is almost as laughable as being a moderator on a forum about games sup with that

I really think that having top tier players brings alot of amazing advertising towards the game and helps it stay relevant.

[Deleted]

bitching about it will change nothing, just accept the changes and move on.
10man can still do normal raids, if they want to do hc content, they will have to merge or recruit
25man guilds will have to rotate or downsize