[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Deleted]

No he didn't even go through the logs. Or else he wouldn't have stated:



And my mistake was dying to Iron Tomb. Which killed both me and my co-tank, and had nothing to do anywhere close to us.
Lv90 talent use is debatable. And we are doing DS differently, and even at her logs HP is pitiful. If you want to help with the healing then you apply EF while you off-tank, that is sure. But HP isn't a must have for DS.

Other than that, there wasn't any "constructive criticism".

Holy Prism is burst healing, it might not do a gazilion healing overall but it's there when it's needed to burst heal for a lot. But l90 talent is up to you. Not using tanking cloak when you die on the other hand is borderline stupidity (and I'm not going to find a nice way to say it. that's just how it is). You went completely defensive after his first post which wasn't harsh in any way.
But instead of listening, perhaps 'rationally' stating why so and so happened - You started insulting someone who took the time to try to point out what you could have done differently.

[Apaz]

Hi all.

Every so often the healers and I always notice I am getting hit like an absolute truck. Like, 300k per hit on Garrosh.

I feel like I should have 100% eternal flame uptime but there are two problems for me with this...
1) I have low (imo) haste, which means getting 5 bastion of glory stacks means I won't have EF up AT ALL for 5+ seconds.
2) I sometimes know that I'm going to get hit hard, so I'll save those 5 stacks (without an active EF up) - for 10 or so seconds, until I get hit, and then use it to get me back up.

Both of these factors mean I seem to have low EF uptime. What are your thoughts on this?

Secondly, my rotation is mainly to get 3 holy power, and SoTR every time I'm at 3. I do this to build 5 stacks of bastion. When I'm at 5 stacks and 3 holy power, I pop Eternal Flame.

When I know I'm going to take a big hit, I use my cooldowns. During Garrosh's aoe whirl i'll use my trinket, etc. I feel like garrosh is a hard fight to know when to use cooldowns on, because he doesn't have that many mechanics, he just hits like a truck, which makes it hard to use CD's effectively.

Here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Anteara/simple

Here is our logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hfipumniblsypoic/
These are from tonight.

I don't know what I can do to make myself better in terms of damage taken and healing needed.
I really need help with this, because I feel like I'm holding my guild back if I can't improve this.

Thanks.

[trystero]

You want to time SotR for melee swings, if you're just spamming it the moment you hit 3 HP then you're not doing it right. So during his AoE spin for example, or any cast from an enemy, that's time you should be generating HP, not using SotR since you're not able to mitigate anything. And if your co-tank has him, that's your time to generate HP - you should taunt him back at 5 HP. Of course you should time it so that you don't waste any HP either, like if you're capped at 5 and you won't take him for about 5 seconds, you should use SotR for extra damage. But that's the basic premise.

Your haste is fine, I had about 15k for most of ToT and had no trouble having sufficient HP to cover most melee swings/boss specials.

Looking at your logs, your SotR uptime is very very low for that haste level. You should probably be 50%+ on most fights, and on some pulls I'm seeing sub 35%, levels that haven't been known since T14. You chose Holy Avenger, but from your logs it looks like you're not casting it??? On many Garrosh pulls it wasn't ever even used. For some kills like your Sha of Pride you only cast it once when you could've cast it multiple times. Here's the thing with HA: if you want to use it, which I never do, but supposing you do, then you really have to cast it on CD for it to compete with DP. On like a 7 minute fight, if you only cast it once, then that's a considerable amount of time when you're gaining absolutely no benefit from your L75 talents - whereas with DP you have an opportunity to benefit every single time you use a finisher. I'm not necessarily saying to use DP; I'm saying that if you choose to use HA then you actually have to use it.

In your logs you're taking very high Gripping Despair damage - are you guys taunting at 4 stacks?

[Apaz]

You want to time SotR for melee swings, if you're just spamming it the moment you hit 3 HP then you're not doing it right. So during his AoE spin for example, or any cast from an enemy, that's time you should be generating HP, not using SotR since you're not able to mitigate anything. And if your co-tank has him, that's your time to generate HP - you should taunt him back at 5 HP. Of course you should time it so that you don't waste any HP either, like if you're capped at 5 and you won't take him for about 5 seconds, you should use SotR for extra damage. But that's the basic premise.

Your haste is fine, I had about 15k for most of ToT and had no trouble having sufficient HP to cover most melee swings/boss specials.

Looking at your logs, your SotR uptime is very very low for that haste level. You should probably be 50%+ on most fights, and on some pulls I'm seeing sub 35%, levels that haven't been known since T14. You chose Holy Avenger, but from your logs it looks like you're not casting it??? On many Garrosh pulls it wasn't ever even used. For some kills like your Sha of Pride you only cast it once when you could've cast it multiple times. Here's the thing with HA: if you want to use it, which I never do, but supposing you do, then you really have to cast it on CD for it to compete with DP. On like a 7 minute fight, if you only cast it once, then that's a considerable amount of time when you're gaining absolutely no benefit from your L75 talents - whereas with DP you have an opportunity to benefit every single time you use a finisher. I'm not necessarily saying to use DP; I'm saying that if you choose to use HA then you actually have to use it.

In your logs you're taking very high Gripping Despair damage - are you guys taunting at 4 stacks?

O.o, that's strange - because I use Holy avenger on the pull every attempt in order to gain 5 bastion stacks so i can have a powerful EF up. I also use it many times during the fight. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be logging that. I use it so often on every single fight too, wth D:

Also, when I posted that (i just copied it from my thread which was locked) I had about 28% haste unbuffed - I fully reforged and regemmed to the best I could think of which gave me about 10% extra. I also put on my haste trinket and changed from a warforged crit/exp to a better itemized flex chestpiece.

I do cast SoTR virtually every time I have 3 Holy Power, so that raises a couple questions for me. If that is <30%, how could I get it over 30% - if i'm holding back - to make sure I use it at an optimal time? I thought the idea was just to keep it up as much as possible, which is what I've been trying to do.

Also, if I don't cast it as often as you suggest, how would I go about getting 5 bastion stacks for Eternal Flame? Or to keep the uptime up, do you suggest I just refresh it when it's down, regardless of stacks?


Thanks. (Also, I try to taunt at 3 but many times our other tank is kind of slow on taunting and I can easily get to 6 or 7 stacks)

Edit: it is logging my holy avenger as shown here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...=10085&e=10685
It shows i only used it twice that attempt which is low given its cooldown and the time the fight takes though (edit again - it looks like it's not showing the first HA i cast, probably because I do it a split second before I pull)... I usually pull like HA > Judge > EF, then do my normal rotation.

Edit again: In regards to the SoTR uptime, I agree that it's low on garrosh, I think with this extra haste I can increase it, but I checked the logs for a boss where i can use it completely optimally (Sha) and it was at 48%, which I think would be >50% given my new amount of haste.

[Wooting]

Since a mod apparently deleted my thread, question about Prot rotation

Lets say my Judgement is going to come off CD .4 seconds faster than my CS. Do I wait and CD or do i just hit judge and delay CS with global CD

[Deleted]

That question was already answered in other thread concerning protection pally.
Let me copy the answer for you:
'At .4 seconds definitely use Judgement - heck I wouldn't even wait if it was .1'

[trystero]

O.o, that's strange - because I use Holy avenger on the pull every attempt in order to gain 5 bastion stacks so i can have a powerful EF up. I also use it many times during the fight. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be logging that. I use it so often on every single fight too, wth D:

Also, when I posted that (i just copied it from my thread which was locked) I had about 28% haste unbuffed - I fully reforged and regemmed to the best I could think of which gave me about 10% extra. I also put on my haste trinket and changed from a warforged crit/exp to a better itemized flex chestpiece.

I do cast SoTR virtually every time I have 3 Holy Power, so that raises a couple questions for me. If that is <30%, how could I get it over 30% - if i'm holding back - to make sure I use it at an optimal time? I thought the idea was just to keep it up as much as possible, which is what I've been trying to do.

Also, if I don't cast it as often as you suggest, how would I go about getting 5 bastion stacks for Eternal Flame? Or to keep the uptime up, do you suggest I just refresh it when it's down, regardless of stacks?


Thanks. (Also, I try to taunt at 3 but many times our other tank is kind of slow on taunting and I can easily get to 6 or 7 stacks)

Edit: it is logging my holy avenger as shown here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...=10085&e=10685
It shows i only used it twice that attempt which is low given its cooldown and the time the fight takes though (edit again - it looks like it's not showing the first HA i cast, probably because I do it a split second before I pull)... I usually pull like HA > Judge > EF, then do my normal rotation.

Edit again: In regards to the SoTR uptime, I agree that it's low on garrosh, I think with this extra haste I can increase it, but I checked the logs for a boss where i can use it completely optimally (Sha) and it was at 48%, which I think would be >50% given my new amount of haste.

Slow on taunting? Lol, I would think slow would mean maybe a second or two delay. If you're getting up to 7 stacks that's not him being slow...that's him just being really bad.

I wouldn't worry about EF uptime to be honest, especially without 4P. With 4P there's really no reason to have it below 90%, because you get so many free casts. Without 4P then it obviously has an opportunity cost, and it is not necessarily the right move to stack to 5 and try to maintain 100% uptime. Before I got 4P I wasn't even using EF until I lost a decent amount of health; that way I still benefited from the instant heal. Players who focus too much on stats will be playing suboptimally just to pad their numbers.

Yea, probably you're hitting HA right before the boss engages, so it's not recording.

What you do with SotR depends honestly where you are in terms of skill. When you're a rank amateur, you just want to use it without wasting Holy Power. Get comfortable pooling to 4,5, still not wasting it. Then you move onto timing it for boss specials: how good were you at mitigating the ToT specials like Triple Puncture, Talon Rake, and Snapping Bite? And be honest: I can't tell you how many times last tier players would say "I always time it for Snapping Bite," and then I perused their logs and saw that they mitigated maybe 40% of specials, when they should've been 95%+. Finally it's time to start using it to cover as many melee swings possible, and this tier NM Garrosh is the fight where you begin to appreciate the value in such an approach. I noticed it out of the gate last tier when we transitioned to 25M and H Jin'rokh's melee swings hit me for over 350k, which was almost half my health pool, so I've had more time to practice and develop, but I can say that before then I didn't worry about it either.

My personal philosophy is to not take (on a regular boss swing timer, not something insane where they're attacking 3x/second) two or more unmitigated melee swings in a row. It's why I love Divine Purpose, especially on a fight like Garrosh were swaps are so frequent, because DP gives you more flexibility for covering melee swings. Sometimes I'm in a situation where I'm spamming it as soon as it procs, other times where I'm holding back to try and extend SotR as much as possible. At a basic level, you pool HP when there's downtime: when not tanking the boss and when he's casting are the obvious examples. If say you're out of HP and none is incoming, that's when you can pop Divine Protection for some additional protection. When you're comfortable with that, you can begin to monitor (if you're not already) the type of damage you're taking. Like suppose you just hit Judgment to grab 3 HP. Do you use SotR now? Depends on what happens, imo....suppose you parried the boss's last attack, then I wouldn't bother using SotR at this time and I'd grab more HP. If on the other hand you didn't parry the attack, and you see a fat -448k flash across your screen, then absolutely SotR now because you're in danger of dying from the 2nd melee swing / whatever else the boss has up his sleeve. Another reason I love DP is that with fortunate procs then I don't have to sweat this annoying split-second analysis; I can lol at the crazy uptimes achievable...on H Sha last week I had 75% uptime.

As for why your uptime may be low, I don't know why, I just know it's very low on some fights. It may be consistency, like when you're not comfortable on a fight you don't execute it as well, or it may have to do with the speed of your keypressing.

[Deleted]

@the waiting with J for CS

The bigger question is, how would that even be possible? Is that happening so frequently for you that is is a problem?

[celinamuna]

Well, the problem is, that he didn't post that to be helpful at all.
It would need a great deal of naivety to think that way.
So no, I died once on IJ, and once on DS what was my fault. On DS the cloak wouldn't have saved me, as the Toxic Mist would have killed me ~0.2s later. In truth I shouldn't even have that debuff. So no.

It's one thing to post constructive critic, and another to be a douche.

Not to sound like an ass, but there's 0 reason to be dying to Toxic Mist even if it does go on you. Esp in 568 ilvl.

[Aceshigh]

Not to sound like an ass, but there's 0 reason to be dying to Toxic Mist even if it does go on you. Esp in 568 ilvl.

Was days ago and they have both dropped it, let it die.

[celinamuna]

Was days ago and they have both dropped it, let it die.

Welp, my thread did not go to proper page/

[Deleted]

Not to sound like an ass, but there's 0 reason to be dying to Toxic Mist even if it does go on you. Esp in 568 ilvl.

I didn't die to TM, but to a 5th stack + melee, for which I had no CD left.
Without Unbreakable, you can run out of CDs, and after they BL, it starts to be problematic. : \
TM would have ticked 0.2s later on the other side. The chance to survive both was low even with tank cloak.

I just dislike the fact that I have to take HoPur on that fight. Possibly will stop using it, as the 3rd tank (off-spec tank) is doing much better by now on that fight, will see.

But yeah, let it die. Pls. ^^;;

[PosPosPos]

I didn't die to TM, but to a 5th stack + melee, for which I had no CD left.
Without Unbreakable, you can run out of CDs, and after they BL, it starts to be problematic. : \
TM would have ticked 0.2s later on the other side. The chance to survive both was low even with tank cloak.

I just dislike the fact that I have to take HoPur on that fight. Possibly will stop using it, as the 3rd tank (off-spec tank) is doing much better by now on that fight, will see.

But yeah, let it die. Pls. ^^;;

This is probably the first time I have heard a prot pally running out of cds. Must obviously be doing something terribly wrong here.

P.S.

Even if you DID run out of cds, which you shouldn't, you could have called for an external(HoS) from your holy pally. Externals should pretty much be only used when called for.

[celinamuna]

I didn't die to TM, but to a 5th stack + melee, for which I had no CD left.
Without Unbreakable, you can run out of CDs, and after they BL, it starts to be problematic. : \
TM would have ticked 0.2s later on the other side. The chance to survive both was low even with tank cloak.

I just dislike the fact that I have to take HoPur on that fight. Possibly will stop using it, as the 3rd tank (off-spec tank) is doing much better by now on that fight, will see.

But yeah, let it die. Pls. ^^;;

Wait, why exactly are you using HoPur ? (Unrelated of logs)
If you only have have 3 ppl up there (healer+tanks) the tanks should be fine surviving it with w/e short term cds they have, if you have healer + dps + 2 tanks, it's even easier.
For what it's worth i've seen strats where the only ppl on top are 2 tanks, who can just heal though the debuff + boss dmg, so you can focus all the dps on wavebinder + adds.

[Deleted]

Wait, why exactly are you using HoPur ? (Unrelated of logs)
If you only have have 3 ppl up there (healer+tanks) the tanks should be fine surviving it with w/e short term cds they have, if you have healer + dps + 2 tanks, it's even easier.
For what it's worth i've seen strats where the only ppl on top are 2 tanks, who can just heal though the debuff + boss dmg, so you can focus all the dps on wavebinder + adds.

Originally it was so, that I could use it on the 3rd healer (so we 2 healed up). We had way to many (still have) healer deaths. So it was better that way. (Kinda.) Now we have only 1 heal + 2 tanks there, so I'm supposed to use it on the 2nd tank, to make it safer. ( Although I only do that if they currently tank. And will probably drop it next reset. )

Without a healer up there, it might be quite sketchy after the BL though. And a bad RNG with Foul Stream might make it problematic. Also it would make CR'ing impossible. Although the tank damage isn't high normally, pre BL we managed few times 20s+ without a healer, and we didn't really try to survive at that point.

[celinamuna]

Originally it was so, that I could use it on the 3rd healer (so we 2 healed up). We had way to many (still have) healer deaths. So it was better that way. (Kinda.) Now we have only 1 heal + 2 tanks there, so I'm supposed to use it on the 2nd tank, to make it safer. ( Although I only do that if they currently tank. And will probably drop it next reset. )

Without a healer up there, it might be quite sketchy after the BL though. And a bad RNG with Foul Stream might make it problematic. Also it would make CR'ing impossible. Although the tank damage isn't high normally, pre BL we managed few times 20s+ without a healer, and we didn't really try to survive at that point.

Fair point i guess. Just whenever i'd get the debuff it wouldn't really make me chance anything (my overheal % would decrease slightly). But i guess this depends too much on tank comp on top.

[Aemi]

Afternoon All,

Im after alittle help, armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%adly/simple (If that fails; EU Aggramar, Charatcer: Eíly).

Im a long serving paladin. Played protection pretty much since TBC and everything there after. So i like to see myself as fairly knowledgable.
I'm just returning after a long break (Basically skipped all HC content this expansion and missed ~75% of ToT). Now some old friends have dragged me back. After doing some reading online it doesnt look like much has changed for us in terms or gearing, gemming etc.

I have re-jigged the armor of my paladin to suit, but can somebody have a look over to make sure im doing it right?

Im using CLCInfo for my rotation guide (all infomation on setting it up from here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mop%5D+clcinfo) is that information still valid?

Also im after some help on a quick ways to gather gear thats "decent" outside of LFR and Flex. Reputation / Timeless isle methods etc.

I have been asked by the guild im in to help them out with there tanking situation, but i dont want to be a hinderance either. Any information is specific Protadin "qwerks" for doing things in SoO?

Thanks in advance for the help / advise.

Regards,

[celinamuna]

Afternoon All,

Im after alittle help, armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%adly/simple (If that fails; EU Aggramar, Charatcer: Eíly).

Im a long serving paladin. Played protection pretty much since TBC and everything there after. So i like to see myself as fairly knowledgable.
I'm just returning after a long break (Basically skipped all HC content this expansion and missed ~75% of ToT). Now some old friends have dragged me back. After doing some reading online it doesnt look like much has changed for us in terms or gearing, gemming etc.

I have re-jigged the armor of my paladin to suit, but can somebody have a look over to make sure im doing it right?

Im using CLCInfo for my rotation guide (all infomation on setting it up from here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mop%5D+clcinfo) is that information still valid?

Also im after some help on a quick ways to gather gear thats "decent" outside of LFR and Flex. Reputation / Timeless isle methods etc.

I have been asked by the guild im in to help them out with there tanking situation, but i dont want to be a hinderance either. Any information is specific Protadin "qwerks" for doing things in SoO?

Thanks in advance for the help / advise.

Regards,

Nothing in our gearing / rotation changed since the begining of this expansion.
So if the clcinfo was correct it still is (no idea if it's correct or not)

[Riemu2k3]

snipped

Couple of things actually you seem to have missed:


- No Battlehealer glyph anymore. It's gotten pretty much useless with 5.4. Use Final Wrath instead
- Execution Sentence is a rather bad T90 spell on the basis of raidutility. Might not be an issue for your raid yet, but you should get comfortable using/timing Holy Prism and Lights Hammer instead.
- Sacred Shield has gotten replaced by Eternal Flame with 5.4. You can still use Sacred Shield, but it got nerfed pretty strongly.
- My personal preference is not to take any socket bonuses. I only take them if they have a good amount of haste or a shitload of stamina (as in, 300 stamina for one socket or sth like that). Otherwise I use 320 Haste in all sockets.
- You're missing nitro boots on belt (and parachute on cloak)
- Colossus was a decent enchant when 5.0 was released. By now, it's pretty much useless. Go for Windsong instead.
- You have lots of gear with Avoidance on it. It's probably because you lack other items for that slow, but I'm going to say it anyway: Try to go for Haste in every slot.
- Try to push your legendary quest ASAP. Both the tank meta gem and the tank cloak are pretty strong.

[Deleted]

What I use

0s HA(will change to SW when I get CDR trinket), GoAK, Lei-Shens trinket, Stoneform
5s Rook HC Talisman
10s DP, Ardent Defender

But this is for 10 man, I see you do 25 man. I guess you will want to rotate heavy healer CDs on you aswell.

I'm going to solosoak blood rage tonight (10 man hc).

I have malko trink nm, rooks flex.

Should I go SW at 0s + GoAK, rooks at 5s and DP(glyphed)+AD at 10s ? Will I need pain supp and/or sacrifice ?