Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?

[Kronik85]

Don't worry Lillnovan, at least I know you're right. The problem is that we have a lack of class leadership here and on the wow forums. You will not get support by the supposed "class spokespeople". If you say something other than "we're completely fine (everything is awesome)", you're going to get egg on your face by the drooling masses. People believe everything "some people" on this forum say, without doing any investigation for themselves.

If you try to stand up and say something isn't right and try to prove it, the straw man arguments are going to come flying at you. For instance if you try to prove it with logs, they're going to falsely claim "sampling bias". If you try to prove it with math or simulations, they will keep coming back and asking you to change this or that...or just say simulations have no value.

Most of us have all but given up trying to improve the class because of the attitude of a few people who rub elbows with the CMs.

My intention is not to start a flame war but I will probably get warned or banned just for speaking up about what is really happening.

OMG quick guys report report! He's exposed our conspiracy to make DKs the worst DPS class ever!

I'm intrigued by this idea of "poor leadership" though. What should we be looking for in our defacto class leader? Can I vote for Basik Kampfire?

[bals]

OMG quick guys report report! He's exposed our conspiracy to make DKs the worst DPS class ever!

I'm intrigued by this idea of "poor leadership" though. What should we be looking for in our defacto class leader? Can I vote for Basik Kampfire?

I wouldn't say there's a conspiracy, but back in the 5.4 beta when HB was buffed by 30%? lots of people in our own class were saying we needed to get nerfed because our damage was gonna be wayyyyyy too high. Shortly later HB buff was moved down to 15%

[Kronik85]

I wouldn't say there's a conspiracy, but back in the 5.4 beta when HB was buffed by 30%? lots of people in our own class were saying we needed to get nerfed because our damage was gonna be wayyyyyy too high. Shortly later HB buff was moved down to 15%

I took it as a sign that Blizzard didn't want Mastersimple but the traditional odd Obliterate....failed though lol. I think you give us too much credit tbh, Blizzard has a pretty proven track record of ignoring community feed back if it's not of the same opinion, sure the thread was monitored by Blizzard but that doesn't mean they went about and retuned the entire class based on it. DW Frost is already the best option this tier so can you really argue it needed the extra 15%? Especially at the expense of side lining 2H Frost and Unholy more than they already are.

[bals]

I would agree with you if dks were one of the top dps classes

[Kronik85]

I would agree with you if dks were one of the top dps classes

Hindsight is 20 20 and all that.

Class balance is a massive rabbit hole, it's not just DKs who have problems, it's pretty much any class or spec that isn't a Warlock. Once you prune Warlocks back then it's who ever's under locks and so on and so forth till it's us on the chopping block. Providing I can raid on my DK and not get carried then I'm happy, what's true for me though isn't going to work for everybody, hence the thread.

[Deleted]

OMG quick guys report report! He's exposed our conspiracy to make DKs the worst DPS class ever!

I'm intrigued by this idea of "poor leadership" though. What should we be looking for in our defacto class leader? Can I vote for Basik Kampfire?

OMG quick guys report report! He's exposed our conspiracy to make DKs the worst DPS class ever!

I'm intrigued by this idea of "poor leadership" though. What should we be looking for in our defacto class leader? Can I vote for Basik Kampfire?

Its really funny Kronik the master of all threads... You just defend that we are all wrong and you dont even play our class as main raider. I more and more get the feeling you are afraid that DK get a buff for like 15% so we can beat your little Warrior as%. Im sorry but i have read alot of what you typing and many things you having good points. But when you start saying that we are OK middle pack you dont know what you talk about. If a guild would pick classes you just take Warlocks, Mages, Boomkins, atleast one hunter and if its absolutly necesary you pick a Rogue (Warriror is ok they fight over the middle) these classes is way better than us DPS wise i. You can also bring atleast one shammy enhancement is really good now elemental i cant really tell.
Tanks Pala, Warrior, Monk, Dk is ok but cant argue here because i dont tank as main and dont want to eat up something that i dont have a clue about... Cough cough as some other would have to do sometimes...

So if you take classes i mention above and just put them in a raid and start to think what i didnt take. How many of them would go before a DK??
I let someone else answer that question.

We are not OK we are not even close to be OK. 2 hand Frost sucks, Unholy is not even close any class. Dual Weil is what we have and that one is lower middle and if you play as i said before with equal gear and awesome players you are among the lowest of all classes whithout question.

go to WWW(raidbots.com) and check 10 men HC as most guilds are 10 men. Check all fights... And important check TOP 100 and also All parses. Then take top 5 classes do a % check how much higher do they do??

I know Kronik that you always come with a argue about why DK:s is low at logs etc etc this is logs. Take a look at them ones more all fights please and come with a nice argue about why logs lies, i really like that part

We are not in a good place, i have 8 HC kills and quite good gear last HC kill was Malkoroc and i told the guild that i would not take a spot for any range or melee (Enhancement or Rogue because they do alot more raid wise that i can do) I also said to guild that spoils HC take some other classes than me because Boomkins, mages, Warlocks is way better than us. Spoils is a fight that is ok for DK:s but for the guild we have Mage, Warlock, Boomkin, Enhancement shaman that brings alot more than i do. So the speak about DK:s Doesnt suffer in "Normal" Guilds that isnt top 100 is just LOL.

And you dont need to start argue about skill this isnt anything about skill its numbers. And stop argue about that we are a Utility bringer, i would gladly find every other class than a DK atm. I will lvl up my mages so if they forgot us i atleast have a backup plan for next warlords...

Ohh as the thread says "Why bring a DK to a 10 man group" answer you dont unless you really like and care about the player and dont want to loose him.

[Maxweii]

Its really funny Kronik the master of all threads... You just defend that we are all wrong and you dont even play our class as main raider. I more and more get the feeling you are afraid that DK get a buff for like 15% do we can beat your little Warrior as%. Im sorry but i have read alot of what you typing and many things you having good points. But when you start saying that we are OK middle pack you dont know what you talk about. If a guild would pick classes you just take Warlocks, Mages, Boomkins, atleast one hunter and if its absolutly necesary you pick a Rogue (Warriror is ok they fight over the middle) So....
Tanks Pala, Warrior, Monk, Dk is ok but cant argue here because i dont tank as main and dont want to eat up something that i dont have a clue about... Cough cough as some other would have to do sometimes...

So if you take classes i mention above and just put them in a raid and start to think what i didnt take. How many of them would go before a DK??
I let someone else answer that question.

We are not OK we are not even close to be OK. 2 hand Frost sucks, Unholy is not even close any class. Dual Weil is what we have and that one is lower middle and if you play as i said before with equal gear and awesome players you are among the lowest of all classes whithout question.

go to WWW(raidbots.com) and check 10 men HC as most guilds are 10 men. Check all fights...

I know Kronik that you always come with a argue about why DK:s is low at logs etc etc this is logs. Take a look at them ones more all fights please and come with a nice argue about why logs lies, i really like that part

We are not in a good place, i have 8 HC kills and quite good gear last HC kill was Malkoroc and i told the guild that i would not take a spot for any range or melee (Enhancement or Rogue because they do alot more raid wise that i can do) I also said to guild that spoils HC take some other classes than me because DK Boomkins, mages, Warlocks is way better than us. Spoils is a fight that is ok for DK:s but for the guild we have Mage, Warlock, Boomkin, Enhancement shaman that brings alot more than i do. So the speak about DK:s Doesnt suffer in "Normal" Guilds that isnt top 100 is just LOL.

And you dont need to start argue about skill this isnt anything about skill its numbers. And stop argue about that we are a Utility bringer, i would gladly find every other class than a DK atm. I will lvl up my mages so if they forgot us i atleast have a backup plan for next warlords...

Fourth post, went in a circle in this whole thing, yeah just. Really mate leave Kronik alone.
He's had plenty of valid points, and havn't we said a bunch in this thread raidbots comparisons are essentially worth nothing....
Your representation of our dps is laughable as well, to say 2Hander Frost sucks, and that Unholy isn't even close. When in actuality they are close to each other, and not very far from DW, though yes DW is the leader.

I mean really let this thread die please Ordos please let it die it should of pages ago

[Deleted]

Fourth post, went in a circle in this whole thing, yeah just. Really mate leave Kronik alone.
He's had plenty of valid points, and havn't we said a bunch in this thread raidbots comparisons are essentially worth nothing....
Your representation of our dps is laughable as well, to say 2Hander Frost sucks, and that Unholy isn't even close. When in actuality they are close to each other, and not very far from DW, though yes DW is the leader.

I mean really let this thread die please Ordos please let it die it should of pages ago

Oh man 2 hand is good and also unholy. Well when i hear something like this i understand that its important to keep this question alive or its crucial to keep it alive.

Thanks anyway to confirm my thoughts!

Edit: I agree about 2 hand and unholy that they are not so far from dual weil but that isnt helping that we are among the lowest DPS wise and that we need a DPS Buff.

[Maxweii]

"inserts lifealert.gif"
Ordos save us this thread won't end

There's been plenty of proof that 2hander and Unholy are viable so you coming along and saying they aren't is bollux at it's finest. This thread is or well was about WHY to bring one, meaning give examples of good things they bring vs downfalls of them. Not whatever this thing has turned into which is pretty much a contest to see who can get the last word in.

[Deleted]

"inserts lifealert.gif"
Ordos save us this thread won't end

There's been plenty of proof that 2hander and Unholy are viable so you coming along and saying they aren't is bollux at it's finest. This thread is or well was about WHY to bring one, meaning give examples of good things they bring vs downfalls of them. Not whatever this thing has turned into which is pretty much a contest to see who can get the last word in.

Question is why bring a DK to a 10 men raid. Isnt DPS a value for that statement?
Bring a DK to a raid is about all including the most important DPS. Its about everything that we discuss now. So your point to end this thread because YOU feel that this isnt important is intressting. I feel that we for one time getting somewhere and start a discussion. If you see things that we should glorifying a DK if thats the point here well in that case i agree then we can end this thread because its nothing in that statement.
I see this thread to someone that wants to know "why bring a DK to a raid" isnt it better to have a discussion about our class in 2 ways instead of how it have been here one way... I come here because im tired of reading same people saying same thing. Be happy finally we can have some good and giving discussions about our favorit class, because i hope you are a DK as main or...?

[Tarazet]

You bring a DK for attack power buff, utility spells, instant brez, and off-tank capability. Are they good enough to bring two? No. Are they good enough to bring one if you already have a DPS Warrior or Paladin in the raid? Maybe, usually not. Are they good to bring if you already have a non-plate melee such as a Rogue or Enhancement Shaman? Unless the encounter design prohibits it (Iron Qon), then absolutely, because they bring different things to the table.

The amount of DPS any class does varies from person to person and by the gear drops they get. Most people can get the most out of one class only, maybe two if they really work hard at it. Meanwhile, someone from a guild like Midwinter could take the worst class in the game, as a fresh 90, and after a few weeks of raiding trounce 99.99% of WoW players who took the flavor of the month because they thought they were OP. In terms of overall raid composition, DK's have their niche and you shouldn't get the idea that they are second-class citizens.

[Deleted]

You bring a DK for attack power buff, utility spells, instant brez, and off-tank capability. Are they good enough to bring two? No. Are they good enough to bring one if you already have a DPS Warrior or Paladin in the raid? Maybe, usually not. Are they good to bring if you already have a non-plate melee such as a Rogue or Enhancement Shaman? Unless the encounter design prohibits it (Iron Qon), then absolutely, because they bring different things to the table.

"you shouldn't get the idea that they are second-class citizens".

Im sorry i use to wait to more people reply so a thread feels alive and not just same people argue all time. But what you just said is absolutly true. And if you also count in that every time it comes raids its usually benefit range. They take less damage usually do more damage they see fight way easier than a melee. If you just count that to what you just said what do we have left for our DK:s? Warrior, Rogue, Pala, Enhancement all bring more DPS, and also Utility wich isnt a argument to bring to a class nowdays because its usually not a problem whatever class you bring.

Well second- class Citizens is a hard way to call it and sure we are not so bad so we cant take raid spots we are just not the one you bring if you have to make a raid team from beggining and have the best players along. We will not be on that wish list and for me that says something...

[Kronik85]

Its really funny Kronik the master of all threads... You just defend that we are all wrong and you dont even play our class as main raider.

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...tlands/kronik/

You can view all my logs of me not raiding there. Logs of me not raiding for the entire expansion on WoL all the way from 5.0.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Kronik85;23630291

You can view all my logs of me not raiding there. Logs of me not raiding for the entire expansion on WoL all the way from 5.0.[/QUOTE]

Ok, thats fine. But it doesnt change the fact anyway. Its nice that you started to raid some HC and that your roster can start to get some HC gear. I see that you been lucky to get all things you need to be competative 4 set bonus, Bis trinkets and also a HC weapon. When everyone gets some HC weapons Tier and some better ILV you will start to see some things happens with everyones DPS. Of course skill does matter here but im not looking and compare classes of awesome players and mediocre players and thats where you see overall logs or top ranked players.

[Kronik85]

Ok, thats fine. But it doesnt change the fact anyway. Its nice that you started to raid some HC and that your roster can start to get some HC gear. I see that you been lucky to get all things you need to be competative 4 set bonus, Bis trinkets and also a HC weapon. When everyone gets some HC weapons Tier and some better ILV you will start to see some things happens with everyones DPS. Of course skill does matter here but im not looking and compare classes of awesome players and mediocre players and thats where you see overall logs or top ranked players.

Didn't see that one coming!

Considering that most players are average then looking solely at top ranking logs is also just as pointless. The situation for top ranking DKs is this one

DKs are fine. We might not be quite as optimal as second Warlock or something, but the tuning of encounters is simply not tight enough for that marginal difference to matter.

From the official forums in the upcoming Acherus thread.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8690929316

May aswell plug the thread, could be interesting. Maybe you could share some of your concerns on Saturday?

[Skarssen]

It
And you dont need to start argue about skill this isnt anything about skill its numbers.

So numbers have nothing to do with skill? If you post some of your logs Ill be happy to find instances where you made mistakes and could improve your performance. Unless you are at or near your theoretical maximum damage output there is no reason to complain about numbers. Besides, there is a forum moderator and a very "well known" DK that play 2h frost in a very successful guild and they aren't being sat for fights.

[Shiira]

A lack of tuning tight enough for it to matter isn't really a justification for poor class balance, but vereesa is right.

We could use some help, but waiting until warlords is fine.

[Kronik85]

A lack of tuning tight enough for it to matter isn't really a justification for poor class balance

I agree with the sentiment, but is class balance really THAT bad atm. It's a shame they never put up the t16 numbers over at simcraft, would be relevant since the premise of the thread seems to be "under ideal conditions, with equally geared equally skilled raiders in BiS or near BiS then DKs are not viable".

[Shiira]

How bad is that bad?

How viable is not viable?

There are plenty of raiding death knights in guilds that can be found on the front page of wowprogress, I can't comment on 10 mans but my 25 man guild finished in the top 10 and my raid spot was never in question. Our unique utility hasn't been as useful as it was in previous tiers, but in t16 there isn't enough justification to bench a good player just because their dps is weak.

Would it be slightly better to have another class? Maybe, loot rng allowing. The gear another warlock or whatever would want isn't going to materialise from thin air and clothie spots are often overcrowded already. I would argue that being able to put the strength gear with relatively little demand to use is a point in favour of death knights in 25 mans.

Are death knights literally not viable at a high level? Hell no. We definitely need to be stronger overall going into warlords, but waiting until then isn't a problem in my opinion.

[DarthMetatron]

From the official forums in the upcoming Acherus thread.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8690929316

May aswell plug the thread, could be interesting. Maybe you could share some of your concerns on Saturday?

Straw men everywhere!

Good luck trying to say any of those involved in the little chat room are wrong. We know they are wrong, we've proven they are wrong on multiple occasions, but they won't listen to anything anyone ever says or proves otherwise. Even with the use of their own tools they've been proven wrong. They have more straw men than Halloween!!

- - - Updated - - -

How bad is that bad?

How viable is not viable?

There are plenty of raiding death knights in guilds that can be found on the front page of wowprogress, I can't comment on 10 mans...SNIP

25M just doesn't factor in this conversation because you can have everyone in the raid and it makes no difference. With a 25M, you're going to have a huge variety of gear/skill levels mixed in whereas 10M you need everyone to have their stuff together. You can lose 4 DPS in 25M (3 bres) and still down the boss no problem whereas in 10M if you lose 2 DPS you're done (most of the time). Add to the fact that 25M you can carry a greater deal of lesser skilled players and be fine.

What needs to be reiterated is that you only have two melee spots (MAX) in 10M.

Rank melee in taking into consideration DPS, Raid Utility, and Survivability given equal skill and gear.

My list would be something like:
1. Warrior
2. Rogue
3. Paladin
4. Shaman
5. Druid
6. Monk
7. DK

Now, take the top two from your list. Is DK there? Nope. I guarantee you could re-think this list a thousand times and DK will never show up in 1, 2 or even 3 (when there are fights you can afford the liability of having 3 melee).

But just remember...everything is awesome!!