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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by RuneeBH View Post
    People want to raid and kill bosses. What if they have a core spot in a slightly less progressed guild, or a non-core spot in a more progressed guild? Then, they have to make a decision. I feel like its their right to ask. Why would someone join a guild expecting to play on their char and then end up sitting in Shrine for 2 hours a night? Its like going to a job interview and not asking how much the pay is.
    Pretty much this, for me raiding is all about progress and just joining up for farm raid after everything is cleared isnt rly raiding, its farming/preparing for next raid. So if someone likes to actually progress on a boss and not have every kill served to him, then its within his right to ask will he be a part of the core team that does progress or will he be a replacement for when ppl get all the loot they need and dont wanna clear anymore. Dont think its bad manner to simply ask, hey do you think i will have a spot for progress raids (be in core team).

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauftamir View Post
    @alturic

    The points you commented on were rhetorical questions. I simply wanted to illustrate why a 10 man raid would not prefer to have exactly 10 people.
    The reasons may be obvious to you or I, but some of the responses in the thread suggest the reasons might not be obvious to other posters.

    @Zandalis

    You don't talk about expectations of attendance on wowprogress, or on the "about us" page, or the application form of your website.
    The only reference is to timekeeping is:

    "4) You will be on time for all raids."

    If you value people for both social reasons and raiding reasons, and a core philosophy of the guild is that you are flexible enough that people can miss a raid if they want to go hiking in the mountains for the weekend, or if an emergency comes up, you should tell people that, it should be on your guild page.

    The answer to your OP then simply becomes that you should not recruit anyone who wants a "core spot" or requests to be in every raid because what they want to get out of raiding is already different to the behaviour and attitude of your guild.

    Do you think a person like this is likely to understand why they, as a 100% attender, have to sit for someone who will miss a raid to go hiking, simply because you've known them since TBC? You would effectively be creating a problem just by recruiting them.

    If your guild is flexible about attendance, and you believe that to be a good thing, this should be a unique selling point as to why someone in the same position as your raiders would want to apply to your guild.
    If this was clear at the outside, you probably wouldn't get the kind of people who want a "core spot" applying in the first place.

    TLDR: You should be trying to attract people who have a similar attitude to the game as you and your existing raiders if you want them to be a good social fit for the team. Don't bother with people who want something different.

    PS: some of your posts seem quite aggressive. Just because someone else is prepared to enforce 100% attendance, doesn't mean they are living in a "bubble" and can't appreciate how the "real world" works. It's a decision they've made for their Guild. That doesn't make it wrong, it just makes the circumstances different.
    This person is spot on, you need to advertise your guild for what it is and you will most likely get more raiders who fit what your looking for . Just as having 14 people swap around works for your guild but not for others, your going to have people that dont mind being swapped in and out and people people who want to raid the whole time. By stating up front clearly how your guild works and why that should help weed out the people only looking for a core spot.
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  3. #143
    I agree, as an officer in my group I have been beating people over the head with this notion; what do we want to be as a group? Most people said heroic raiders but not realm first chasers. Since thewhen we recruit I tell all the new people the deal up front; good players get progression slots and less good players get farm spots to work on their skills and gear. We won't turn you down but you need to play well. It has helped immensely with recruitment in that people who don't agree politely decline the invite and people who accept it don't complain and cause drama.

  4. #144
    Very few guilds rotate people fairly. For example, let's say you have 5 dps slots, but 7 dps players. What you'll find is that about 3 dps players will be in every raid (the core) and 4 dps players will rotate in the last two slots (the bench).

    And this is justifiable. Those 3 players will have 100% attendance, usually be the top dps and best interrupters/special jobs people. Taking them to every raid increases the chance of success for the raid.

    But if you're looking to join a new guild, would you rather be one of those 3 Core people, or one of the 4 Bench people? And since these Core/Bench roles are not formal roles, but rather ad hoc, it usually takes a very long time before someone moves from one category to the other in the minds of the rest of the raid.

  5. #145
    My raid has a core, it seems essential for moving things along. They show up almost every time or tell me in advance if they can't. They are gemmed and enchanted. They pull good numbers and know the fight. They adapt to the situation as needed. Generally speaking we have solid regular tanks and healers.

    There are about 8 of these in my guild. Everyone else is not really guaranteed that they will be in the regular raid. If they meet the criteria above then they would be there. The decision from the remaining players is usually as simple as who signed up and is there on time. After that, invites go out simultaneously, lets see who accepts first.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RohanV View Post
    Very few guilds rotate people fairly. For example, let's say you have 5 dps slots, but 7 dps players. What you'll find is that about 3 dps players will be in every raid (the core) and 4 dps players will rotate in the last two slots (the bench).

    And this is justifiable. Those 3 players will have 100% attendance, usually be the top dps and best interrupters/special jobs people. Taking them to every raid increases the chance of success for the raid.

    But if you're looking to join a new guild, would you rather be one of those 3 Core people, or one of the 4 Bench people? And since these Core/Bench roles are not formal roles, but rather ad hoc, it usually takes a very long time before someone moves from one category to the other in the minds of the rest of the raid.
    See, I'm not sure your using the word 'fairly' correctly. It seems fair to me. The 3 cores who always show up always get a spot.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcbert View Post
    See, I'm not sure your using the word 'fairly' correctly. It seems fair to me. The 3 cores who always show up always get a spot.
    The thing is the new guy might also show up 100% of the time. However, he has to rotate until the officers mentally classify him as "dependable". That might take two or three months, because it is done in an informal manner. And even then the officers might not want to because it would mean 3 players rotating in that one last spot.

    As well, the core people might not be 100%. Instead the group treats them missing an evening as an aberration, and gives them back their core spot the next week.

    Basically, every guild I've been in has two groups of people: people who always get into the raid; and people who rotate. This is never a formal thing, it's always just an unconscious list in the minds of the officers. The demand to be Core is an attempt by the recruit to force the officers to think of him as belonging to the "always raid" list, and not the "rotate" list.

  7. #147
    A 14 player roster for a guild that raids two days a week seems a bit overkill. If everyone shows up, you sit 4 people for every fight? Seems like a full time job deciding who comes in and who sits.

  8. #148
    Most great guilds honestly don't have a "Core" rank from what I've experienced. You define yourself as a core member by not being terrible and being a great asset to the raid, which in turn never gets you sat.
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  9. #149
    When I'm recruiting (especially now to ramp up for mythic) I try so damn hard not to use the term "bench" because we really don't have bench players. We just want a roster stable enough to not cancel raid days when someone is missing. People have a hard time understanding this and if they're not in every night for every kill then they consider it a bench spot and not a core spot; it drives me fucking crazy.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Octa View Post
    People have a hard time understanding this and if they're not in every night for every kill then they consider it a bench spot and not a core spot; it drives me fucking crazy.

    its not people having hard time understanding it because they understand it perfeckly - its that people havce others guilds to choose from on server probably ones with slightly lesss progress but offering them raid spot whenever they log on - and this is what most of players arel ooking for they dont give a f*** about fast progress they just wanna log on and raid - and even benching for few bosses means they will start lookign for a new guild.

    u are forgeting about 1 more kind of players who makes guilds to require a bench for farm - its the "i was uber lucky with rng so i have all slots filled" players - who very often are nice enough to pass out spot on farm nights (cause they have nothing to gain from it anyway) but then when progres comes they log in and are nearly always taken to progress (which very often slows down farm too cause suddenly instead 250-300k dps u are forced to take a 150k one who may not be the best in term of mechanics exaecution too_

  11. #151
    Deleted
    It's the age old question of would you rather be a sub for a top team or the captain of a lesser team. At the end of the day, there are a lot of people who want to raid. Killing bosses and getting achievements is just the icing on the cake, but it's the raiding which is the activity of choice.

    By having a roster of 14 for a 2 night guild, you are either saying that over half of your guild will miss 50% of the raiding for that week, or that some will miss all of it. I certainly wouldn't like those odds.

  12. #152
    Deleted
    10 Man raider here in a 10 man roster, 9 hour/week guild and we have comfortably made it to 10/14 hc. Do a lot of raids have to be cancelled? Ye, sadly. This is the price you pay for running a dedicated 10 man roster and quite frankly everybody really enjoys it.

    Riding the bench just because your class is shit on malk hc is not fun. This is way easier to manage in a casual/semi-hardcore environment though, wouldn't expect any currently 14/14 guild to run a dedicated 25 or 10 man roster.

  13. #153
    I see why especially with your guild such Problem arise.

    When raiding only 6 hours a week, you dont want to be sitting out, as it is so less anyway.
    I wouldnt be satisfied even when in every raid.

  14. #154
    Herald of the Titans Dristereau's Avatar
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    My Guild currently has a Roster of around 15 Players for 10 Man, due to it accepting that IRL comes before Raids. As far as I'm aware all Raiders usually rotate, in that it has around 3 Tanks, 4/5 Healers and 8/9 DPS (I think?). For my Guild a Core Spot means that Group.

    My personal put off from actually joining it was that the position was for a Mage and a) I don't consider myself that great as a Mage, b) I don't care enough about my Mage to make it my main and also c) I questioned my commitment to the Game and Guild (Around about WoD Announcement).

    I think in your case it's a thing of reliability and proving yourself. If you see certain raiders outperforming others you may feel more inclined to take them than someone who has sat for that week.

    In our case there was a Second Normal Team in ToT, but given the amount of sign ups we're currently having for our Guild Flex Runs (22 Last Night) and a need to clear Garrosh on Flex first (Because :P) it just does Flex. Unless it drops down to around 10 for a week it will probably always do Flex. And in 6.0 it will have the opportunity to do the same content as the Main Team. Also your Raid Team will be able to expand in 6.0 and use all members, and the bench shouldn't exist.

    Anyways, enough rambling by me...
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  15. #155
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauftamir View Post
    @alturic

    The points you commented on were rhetorical questions. I simply wanted to illustrate why a 10 man raid would not prefer to have exactly 10 people.
    The reasons may be obvious to you or I, but some of the responses in the thread suggest the reasons might not be obvious to other posters.

    @Zandalis

    You don't talk about expectations of attendance on wowprogress, or on the "about us" page, or the application form of your website.
    The only reference is to timekeeping is:

    "4) You will be on time for all raids."

    If you value people for both social reasons and raiding reasons, and a core philosophy of the guild is that you are flexible enough that people can miss a raid if they want to go hiking in the mountains for the weekend, or if an emergency comes up, you should tell people that, it should be on your guild page.

    The answer to your OP then simply becomes that you should not recruit anyone who wants a "core spot" or requests to be in every raid because what they want to get out of raiding is already different to the behaviour and attitude of your guild.

    Do you think a person like this is likely to understand why they, as a 100% attender, have to sit for someone who will miss a raid to go hiking, simply because you've known them since TBC? You would effectively be creating a problem just by recruiting them.

    If your guild is flexible about attendance, and you believe that to be a good thing, this should be a unique selling point as to why someone in the same position as your raiders would want to apply to your guild.
    If this was clear at the outside, you probably wouldn't get the kind of people who want a "core spot" applying in the first place.
    Like OP said good post but you miss one crucial point: if you have 10 or 25 people who sacrifice their real life for raiding and are always on time and there for the whole raid time that works perfectly fine whereas if you have 10 or 25 people who sacrifice WoW to their real life this can sometimes mean you have attendance or composition issues. In other words the system can work around a few slackers, but not too many.

    TLDR: You should be trying to attract people who have a similar attitude to the game as you and your existing raiders if you want them to be a good social fit for the team. Don't bother with people who want something different.
    The two type of players (if you want to think there's only these 2 types that is, since theres quite a lot of shades in between) can exist happily together in the same guild. A loot system such as EPGP already takes into account attendance, being on time, stayinig on standby, and thus rewards the player who is not slacking (irrelevant of why the player is slacking since the system does not care). If configured properly it takes the question of core spot or not out of the equation.

    What "core spot" simply means is that they recruit a player who is not slacking on attendance and who is not sitting on the bench either.

  16. #156
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Entitlement has gotten a bit worse this expansion. People want a core spot without going through any type of trial. I get DPS who seem to be 'okay' but nothing exceptional coming into the guild, get benched because they're the lowest, and quit the next day.

    I would put the time into them, gear them up, coach them-- but they don't want that. They just keep guild hopping. It's always happened, but I've noticed it to be quite a bit worse this entire expansion.

  17. #157
    Unless you're an amazing caliber guild (Top 100 or better say) then of course nobody is going to stick around if you can't guarantee them a raid spot. Time spent on the bench is personal progress lost, and personal progress is what really matters.

  18. #158
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Unless you're an amazing caliber guild (Top 100 or better say) then of course nobody is going to stick around if you can't guarantee them a raid spot. Time spent on the bench is personal progress lost, and personal progress is what really matters.
    That's understandable, but speaking from the perspective of a guild that fluctuates around top 100, usually 120 or so, we like to recruit people who will stay and be good. So it ends up we get some like that and others who leave the moment they don't get what they want.

    You just kind of get used to it and keep on recruiting.

  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans Aoyi's Avatar
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    I've seen iy suggested by others in the thread and I agree. You need to just advertise for what you are and don't worry about those that don't want to be a part of it. In your case, you have a raid with 4 benched members at any given time. There are some people that like that. They want to raid, but don't want to commit to full runs. Personally, I can't stand that and have raided for years with a fixed team, but that's just my preference. The only time you really run into issues is when you have people who are expecting something other than what your group is offering.

  20. #160
    The Lightbringer Toxigen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Unless you're an amazing caliber guild (Top 100 or better say) then of course nobody is going to stick around if you can't guarantee them a raid spot. Time spent on the bench is personal progress lost, and personal progress is what really matters.
    What? Really?

    I always bought into the "guild progress above all" mentality.
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