"We don't want to raid, we want dungeons"

[Spoonman]

I saw this sentence on mmo champ and it really got me, what the hell has happend over the years?

Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience, what I felt everyone thought was the most fun in the game and what everyone i knew were doing when i played thru Vanilla, BC, WOTLK, Cata.
I mean u did everything else (Gearing up etc) to get to the main goal in the game (Raiding)

Raiding is the only reason im playing this game and so i thought it was for everyone else but i guess times have changed.
Its starting to feel like the community are getting too seperated in the reason behind why we are playing this game and this will start causing problems.
What really scares me tho is that many tend to want to play with less players rather than more to be able to achive greatness.

If Raids didnt exist, would there acctualy be a lot of players still playing this game?
What is the reason why you are playing WoW?

Edit: This topic is abit about the Mythic 5 Idea aswell if u havent realised it yet. Those topics are on fire right now and its from there the sentence comes. It clearly isnt what 1 people think

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ngeons-in-wod/
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-or-against-it

[Haywire5714]

1 person speaks for everyone?

[Aqua]

The most discontent are the loudest. Nothing has changed at all. Cool the alarm bells.

The raiders are quiet because frankly the raiding has been pretty nice.

[0mni]

One person said what he/she wanted.
Says "we" instead of "I"
Suddenly his/her words have become the majority's thoughts

And that's how you vocal minority.

The game's less personal than it was back in the day. I personally believe that's both the community's and the developer's fault, as ease of access created a laziness among the community. As a result, people like doing the "easier" things more so than back in Vanilla/TBC. That being said, I don't believe that necessarily means that they want content with less players; they just want it to be quick and easy.

[Littleraven]

The most discontent are the loudest. Nothing has changed at all. Cool the alarm bells.

The raiders are quiet because frankly the raiding has been pretty nice.

^this. i still believe that WoW has the best raid content of any other MMO on the market. other games have good stuff. but WoW is just in a league of its own imo. nothing has changed really. there are just more ways for people to whine so it seems like it has. the forums have always had people complaining about things since the beginning of WoW. and thats fact.

[Sylreick]

Raiders are the minority (only bumped up a bit by the likes of LFR and perhaps flex). Many people would like content designed to be decently entertaining as the heroics accompanying the raids like DS and ICC, instead of relying on the mess that LFR is or dedicate time to raid normal/heroic.

It's not everybody saying this. I would consider myself a raider, but I can see where they're coming from. Dungeons have their own feel to them, a small group of 5 friends or random peeps, running in an organized group (to an extent). It's something that scenarios cannot achieve, and you don't notice it in LFR's much.

The people that literally mean they'd rather raids not exist and only have dungeons are foolish, but their desire for content in an aspect that was largely ignored in MoP shouldn't be dismissed off-handedly.

[Blazemoore]

It's all about sensationalization, which is exactly what OP is doing. I agree that raiding is and should be the end goal, but it is nice, and should be required, I think, to have challenging, rewarding content that doesn't require a 4 hour or longer commitment. We already have dungeons, so let's make them fairly challenging and reward us accordingly. Raiding should not be the only challenging, fun content in the game.

[Spoonman]

1 person speaks for everyone?

U tell me if the Mythic 5 Dungeon topics are popular right now

[Vightnic]

I forget the numbers but I believe that up until LFR was introduced... an overwhelming majority of WoW's playerbase never even SAW all the raids an expansion had to offer.

[Haywire5714]

U tell me if the Mythic 5 Dungeon topics are popular right now

They want heroic dungeons to be hard ... that doesn't mean "we want dungeons instead of raids".

[Ragashii]

Some people like 5 mans get over it. For a lot of people 5 mans were their endgame for a long time. In classic most people did 5 mans and never raided. In BC a lot of people did 5 mans or pvp'd and didn't raid. In wrath people geared up alts pretty quickly with 5 mans and you could even progress into raids from them, more people raided in this xpac than any other. In cataclysm people got really pissed off at how hard the 5 mans were, not the raids. So 5 mans were still very popular there. In MoP there are barely any 5 mans and challenge modes don't cut it for many, myself included. I would rather the timer be a bonus reward instead of a requirement. Just make them really challenging but rewarding. It doesn't affect you one bit how someone else progresses in the game unless you work with them directly.

[Annarion]

I don't understand the people who ask for this shit. I want harder, even mythic level heroic dungeons, because I don't have time for raiding. Are you dumb? I've spent 3 hours in Shattered Halls before. I've gone through 6 different tanks in a launch Grim Batol. Hard = longer. Because it's the speed at which you finish things that determines it's difficulty in this game. Sure there are a couple of fights that are short but require precision, but the fact is is that the faster you complete something (read: least number of tries), the easier that content is. So if you want short, hard content, well you may want to find a different game.

[melodramocracy]

It's a matter of perception, and, as always, an example of how familiarity breeds contempt, in a sense.

Prior to LFR, raiding was considered 'exclusive', an inaccurate portrayal exacerbated by the community itself. Seeing as it was 'the goal' for the vast majority of players, one that many would never actually participate in, end game consisted of 5 mans and pvp for this chunk of players. And those 5 mans were either numerous enough, or substantial enough, for people to consider being somewhat ok with.

MoP brings a different story however, as LFR completely replaces the position in end-game that 5 mans used to take up. And 5's are no more than the most trivial of stepping stones. Perhaps players who don't like large group encounters feel that they have no other effective options.

One thing is certain. With no less than 4 raid difficulties, and 2 scenario difficulties, there is absolutely no reason at all for heroics to remain the pointless exercise they were for this entire expansion. There most certainly is room for them to be consistently relevant end game content.

[Weightlifter]

Gearing alts is more boring than ever. After timeless isle 496 gear, there is nothing but LFR, LFR and then more LFR until you meet the ridiculous ilvl requirements set by most flex pug leaders, let alone normal.

It burns out the content faster and diminishes motivation to raid it on your main when you have seen the place 38938593 times when it has barely been out for 3 months.

[Annarion]

Gearing alts is more boring than ever. After timeless isle 496 gear, there is nothing but LFR, LFR and then more LFR until you meet the ridiculous ilvl requirements set by most flex pug leaders, let alone normal.

It burns out the content faster and diminishes motivation to raid it on your main when you have seen the place 38938593 times when it has barely been out for 3 months.

So running the same 10 instances daily for the entire expansion relieves the monotony of gearing alts how?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Raiders are the minority (only bumped up a bit by the likes of LFR and perhaps flex). Many people would like content designed to be decently entertaining as the heroics accompanying the raids like DS and ICC, instead of relying on the mess that LFR is or dedicate time to raid normal/heroic.

It's not everybody saying this. I would consider myself a raider, but I can see where they're coming from. Dungeons have their own feel to them, a small group of 5 friends or random peeps, running in an organized group (to an extent). It's something that scenarios cannot achieve, and you don't notice it in LFR's much.

The people that literally mean they'd rather raids not exist and only have dungeons are foolish, but their desire for content in an aspect that was largely ignored in MoP shouldn't be dismissed off-handedly.

Raiders are the minority? Wat?

[Weightlifter]

So running the same 10 instances daily for the entire expansion relieves the monotony of gearing alts how?

At least it's not the same content that I already run on my main.

[Sadoraan]

OP, while i don't think you intended it to be the case, your post came off kinda like one of those people who just state their opinion as fact: "This is what I like about the game, why doesn't everyone else like this!"

To give some counterbalance to what you have said, I started playing wow roughly at the same time you did, late vanilla. I also enjoy raiding and think that it was and still is the "pinnacle" of content in wow. But unlike you, i've NEVER enjoyed 25+man raiding, and this whole concept of wow being about "playing with large groups of people" is something that I disagree with.

In my experience and opinion (and that is all this is) people have raided with large groups (25+) because that used to be the only opinion for end game raiding. I believe that if things like BT/SSC/TK etc etc had a 10 man opinion that was as similar as possible in difficulty, a LOT of people would take that option, and that raiding with a smaller, tighter nit group of people is a lot more appealing to the majority of wow players.

Yes there is the "epic" challenge of getting a 25 man raid group together, but honestly, i've ALWAYS found it to be just a massive pain in the ass, and that large raids actually take a lot of the fun away from the game (again, just my opinion, and i CAN see why others enjoy 25 mans.)

[TenDance]

Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp.

Not at all. During classic, there had been a LOT of dungeons which had been "endgame content". Scholomance, Stratholme (if you insist you might call it's 10-player-start a miniraid), the blackrock (yes, you might call that a miniraid, but it had been a dungeon).... heck, becoming Ogreking or getting his epic classquest weapon had been endgame. Even in BC, dungeons had a way higher standing. Shattered halls heroic timerun wasn't made for everyone. All in all, heroics took longer and more effort. You took your time, even if it meant to spend more than an hour for it. You joined each other in voicechat to coordinate better. Did you ever form a lasting ingame friendship with one of these guys you'd met in lfr/lfd?

As far as I'm concerned, that's the reason flexraid is that popular. It's accessible, but not braindead easy. You take your time, form a group, meet up in voicechat... it puts the massive multiplayer back into this ORPG. Or, nowadays, maybe it's just an OPG.
Fun fact: inventing flexraid created more "content" without the need to pay guys in the artdepartment. Whereas creating some 5mans, like the ICC-triplet (pit of saron etc) takes loads of manpower. And money.

[Sylreick]

Raiders are the minority? Wat?

Pretty sure there were blue posts/tweets about raiders, they were stating that not many people actually run normal mode, and even less in heroic (compared to the player base as a whole). LFR is an exception due to ease of access through the queue.