Anyone else Disappointed with our end game DPS?

[Mogai]

Ah, then where is the best/recommended place these days for spec / stat, rotation and gear info?

http://www.icy-veins.com/ - i use that it works just fine for me

[Schizoide]

Noxxic is decent for that stuff, although icy-veins is better. Even icy-veins tends to fall into the "CTRL-C, CTRL-V simcraft action lists" school of guide writing, unfortunately.

Noxxic's "realistic DPS" rankings have no purpose other than to mislead people. I boycott Noxxic for those charts alone, because their existence means that either the site's content creators/admins don't know what the hell they're doing or are purposefully doing their readers a disservice.

[Kronik85]

@simplyzak People see patterns where they aren't. Nothing to do with scaling as you imagine. DKs simply lacking fights to shine this tier.

I'm intrigued lol. What exactly is our criterion to shine?

*Hides in a bunker*

[Shiira]

It needs to be the first tier of the expansion, not the last.

[Clash the DK]

I'm intrigued lol. What exactly is our criterion to shine?

*Hides in a bunker*

My brain exploded when I read that tweet.

[Shiira]

I don't know where celestalon thinks dks stand in this tier, but he's so very wrong. This is someone who is meant to be working on balance and tuning? Is this a bad joke?

The lack of relevant communication from the devs recently has really disappointed me.

[Deleted]

Don't worry. He doesn't exist at blizzard. Simply deny his presence. We are madmans capable of doing so, Ashbringer guide us again! Oh noooo anoher trap! Maybe 1 dk slot per server wasn't that bad when we had to gear up "maintwinks"

[Schizoide]

I'm intrigued lol. What exactly is our criterion to shine?

Yeah, I saw that tweet too and scratched my head. There's tons of AE and cleave in SoO, so that's not it. Long-lasting AE too. And of course there are single-target fights, and movement, and spots for our DoTs to tick while out of melee range, and spots where unholy's pet can keep attacking when the player can't... I just can't figure out what he meant to say, which specific DK niche is not present in SoO encounters.

Assuming that he's a bright guy (no evidence yet either way, really) I guess my takeaway was that he's saying it's not a scaling issue, but a numbers issue. In which case, you know, buff the numbers.

[valliant13]

I don't know where celestalon thinks dks stand in this tier, but he's so very wrong. This is someone who is meant to be working on balance and tuning? Is this a bad joke?

The lack of relevant communication from the devs recently has really disappointed me.

what was his tweet exactly?

[Deleted]

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/

We are in the middle of the pack.

/thread

Dps that's inflated by dpsing adds is dps that's not important.

We have an Arms warrior doing the same dps as me (fire mage) on Garrosh because I only do single target the whole fight, where he goes full-on berserk on the adds in p1. I do a _lot_ more damage than him on Garrosh. Replacing him by a different dps doing less damage on adds, but more damage on the boss would mean a faster kill, as long as the tanks don't get overrun by adds.

Replacing me with another Arms warrior makes the boss go down much slower**** and the other Arms warrior would have lowered dps as well since there's a limit to how much add damage you can do before they die.


Yes, killing an add is important, but as long as it dies, how much of the damage you do to it is very irrelevant. The damage on a boss is much more important on almost every fight.

Also, if you look on what you linked, you're on the bottom of all classes. Your top spec is the lowest of all top specs of all classes.

Your sig makes me believe that you're being carried.

[Disinvolto]

Dps that's inflated by dpsing adds is dps that's not important.

This. While I get it's still "DPS" - I've never liked the ridiculous numbers that AOE became with Mount Hyjal and beyond during BC. Seems no matter the expansion (new to MoP and didn't raid in Cata) - there's always a big trash "AOE-who's-got-the-biggest-stick" fighting contest with DPSers. I dislike it very much. There's literally no skill in how well you're able to hit a bunch of mobs with your moves IMHO.

Single target fights and intelligent AOE please. (2 or 3 hard mobs, like a lot of the Heroic Ulduar pulls. Loved that instance.)

[Schizoide]

That link was top100 and thus invalid anyway. Read back a few pages, the correct link was posted many times. Never ceases to amaze how many people don't know how to use raidbots.

[Maxweii]

Dps that's inflated by dpsing adds is dps that's not important.

We have an Arms warrior doing the same dps as me (fire mage) on Garrosh because I only do single target the whole fight, where he goes full-on berserk on the adds in p1. I do a _lot_ more damage than him on Garrosh. Replacing him by a different dps doing less damage on adds, but more damage on the boss would mean a faster kill, as long as the tanks don't get overrun by adds.

Replacing me with another Arms warrior makes the boss go down much faster and the other Arms warrior would have lowered dps as well since there's a limit to how much add damage you can do before they die.


Yes, killing an add is important, but as long as it dies, how much of the damage you do to it is very irrelevant. The damage on a boss is much more important on almost every fight.

Also, if you look on what you linked, you're on the bottom of all classes. Your top spec is the lowest of all top specs of all classes.

Your sig makes me believe that you're being carried.

This was sorta like how on H Lei Shen it was better to just Fester you starter dots all the way into the third phase. You totally ignore the sparks compared to doing a bit of aoe, but you make up for no aoe damage with much much higher boss damage. From the start of third phase you were able to just unload on the boss not worrying much about festerblighting your dots.
I ended up having a huge discussion with another dk in our group about it, he was so certain we needed the small bit of aoe on the adds yet they always melted no matter what.

[psyquest]

Been reading this thread and I will give my experience. Take it with a pinch of salt or dismiss it if you like.

Playing a DK since woltk, currently 10/14hc in a semi casual guild.

In any given fight, if there are adds:
Warlock and enhance shaman then hunter then the rest.
If there are no adds:
Shamans and rogue or hunter then warlock / mage then DK.

Funny note:
Beginning of tiers I was first in at least 50% of fights, previous tiers was the same. Currently at 570ilvl average group I just do not keep up, same players different gear level.

[Shiira]

what was his tweet exactly?

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...98921180164096

This was sorta like how on H Lei Shen it was better to just Fester you starter dots all the way into the third phase.

I'm glad to see others arriving at this conclusion. I had a lot of trouble convincing my guild's other dps death knight that pushing phase one and two is largely unimportant if you're already doing them quickly enough. Gotta love those extra scourge strikes in phase three.

[Deleted]

Well, things are precisely like Lampe said previously. We are doing fine until the point when people are getting their hands on BiS-gear. When there are adds to cleave, at least DW-frost stands somewhere in the top10 and better(if the rng-planets are in the right position).

The trend from the ICC-times to present is that DK isn't "allowed" to shine. Most of us know that Festerblight used to shine thanks to several things including Tricks of the Trade. ToT got hotfixed. RPPM-bug with RC got fixed(glad about it tbh). First a blow under the belt with the str-nerf. Then they tried to resuscitate UH by buffing it back up.

This is where it get clunky in my opinion. If Festerblight was too powerful with Tot, then why it is working with Warlocks' dots at the moment. I think ive seen tweets about dot snapshotting being removed in WoD, but why it isn't nerfed/hotfixed/(i call it justice) now. If the devs wanted to balance the classes. they could do so easily(proven in various different situations in the past)
So what's the catch in not doing so? Affects too heavily on PvP or what.

But can't really say that I'm disappointed at our end game dps. Maybe im just grown dull to it. Would be funny to read forums about the need of nerfing DK once in a while, PVE-wise. Can't really tell from PvP-pov.

And about scaling, its far behind from warrs and so. BUT: for example when Obliterate was scaling properly in PvE, i remember reading numerous posts about how it was hitting like a mutant truck in steroids in PvP.. And wild nerf bat appears.

[Shiira]

Warlocks don't get to buff their dots for an entire encounter with one tricks, we did.

As for cleave, we're only okay there when there aren't enough targets for it to be worth aoeing for the specs that actually have good aoe, and then we just get to watch multidotters, monks, warriors and mages tear the meters up. We're decent on encounters like malkorok and spoils where the targets don't live for long either, but that's about it. We still aren't above average on either of them.

[Deleted]

I know that we did. Still its "unfair" in my opinion. And it really isn't that hard to keep up with your buffs as a caster to snapshot dots everytime to get higher and higher dmg at the cost of a gcd. While frost doesnt benefit from doing so the slightest. And unholy.. Well meh. Personally im still lacking truckloads of gear to play as unholy to do more dmg than disc priest /sarcasm

[Deleted]

I'm intrigued lol. What exactly is our criterion to shine?

*Hides in a bunker*

Eh... uhm... well, dunno, maybe time for jump ship next xpac? Lets level some alts just in case...

[Kronik85]

*Pokes head out from bunker*

Looks like all this venting has done people some good, people took that tweet much better than I anticipated lol. The bunker was dark....and boring, so I had plenty of time to think about our niche.

It's a fight where the ranged have some completely obnoxious mechanic that stops them from DPSing most of the encounter with a single target that, 100% uptime and a good chunk of adds with 100k hp that spawn within HB cleave range and a magic debuff we can AMS that shuts the other melee down (sorry Unholy...can't think of your niche...or Frost 2H)!

Brazilian fart porn is probably less niche than that.

Being serious for a second though, at least through Cataclysm and most of MoP I've always though our niche (at least as Frost) has been consistent damage. We don't have the big 5 min CDs or even 3 min CDs so damage is less spikey. For a fight like Spine it was a shit niche, but in Siegecrafter 10 then always having PoF for the belt meant I was the safest option before we out geared it.

I brought up the AoE vs Single Target thing many many pages back, I don't know why people expectations have changed so much. There was a time when people would just discount heavy add fights and only care about the numbers on Patchwerks but people really don't see to be feeling the same in SoO. The Rogue I raid with doesn't play combat this tier because it's lower Single Target (second hand information, correct me if I'm wrong), he's made that his niche this tier whilst me and our Warrior provide the cleave.

In the past people would have said our Rogue has the right of it, if I posted this a few pages back however I think people would have criticised him for being a sub optimal spec.