"We don't want to raid, we want dungeons"

[Zia]

I saw this sentence on mmo champ and it really got me, what the hell has happend over the years?

Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience, what I felt everyone thought was the most fun in the game and what everyone i knew were doing when i played thru Vanilla, BC, WOTLK, Cata.
I mean u did everything else (Gearing up etc) to get to the main goal in the game (Raiding)

Raiding is the only reason im playing this game and so i thought it was for everyone else but i guess times have changed.
Its starting to feel like the community are getting too seperated in the reason behind why we are playing this game and this will start causing problems.
What really scares me tho is that many tend to want to play with less players rather than more to be able to achive greatness.

If Raids didnt exist, would there acctualy be a lot of players still playing this game?
What is the reason why you are playing WoW?

Edit: This topic is abit about the Mythic 5 Idea aswell if u havent realised it yet. Those topics are on fire right now and its from there the sentence comes. It clearly isnt what 1 people think

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ngeons-in-wod/
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-or-against-it

If raiding is LFR, I dont want it.

I'd rather work on heroic dungeons.

[nekobaka]

Even in Cata the cry to actually see raids was not that big compared to the cry for gear. The players who wanted more gear just wanted to do dungeons, they didnt want to raid. Blizzard said fuck that here is LFR and you will have to do it if you want tier gear. I think it was Bashiok that came out and said that while more conservatively in one of the "I will quit if not given more tier gear" QQ threads in Cata.

For myself raiding was a big thing until MoP. I had been playing from Classic and started to raid around when BT came out. I picked up WotLK, Cata, and MoP due to friends I have made over the years from raiding. So if I didnt become social and form bonds with other players I would have likely quit after BC. In WotLK I moved to more PuG raiding and even more PuG raiding in Cata as my play times just didnt line up with friends often enough, but when I could I would play with them. In MoP I was going to move to raiding alternatives hoping things like challenge modes would be engaging along with scenarios, nope.

Not everyone cares about raiding. For myself I want non-raid things like five mans. The big fuss for raids was really from a segment of the vocal minority looking out for themselves despite their claims to represent the majority which just shows how full of themselves they are. LFR is not getting removed but its no longer the shinning star of the developers. Raid popularity despite LFRs presence has declined over the tiers and according to MMO-Champions numbers is once again in the minority. Blizzards attempt to make LFR a big long term grind didnt pan out as expected.
(November 2013) https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...54093123354624

Is there any idea you regret you supported to get implemented into the game?
I wish we had done flex before Raid Finder. Flex still feels like raiding.
Originally we thought some players could just have an LFR endgame instead of a raiding endgame.
Our current thought is that LFR is a way to see the content and maybe some gear but not a great way to spend weeks or months.

[satimy]

The ICC five mans and the End Time 5 mans were awesome

[RoKPaNda]

Raiders are the minority? Wat?

Yes and they always have been. The number of people doing raids, even in Vanilla/BC/WLK where raiding was THE end-game and the only real manner of progression (aside from a small number of point/emblem epics in BC/WLK) the raiders were a minority. Very very very VERY few people ever got to see the end game content. In vanilla very few people ever got to see Ragnaros, let alone BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. In BC even the majority of raiders never made it beyond Kael/Vashj. In WLK it was more accessible through 10-man raiding but raiders were still the minority. Discounting LFR, raiders are still the minority.

As a former raider, I actually would prefer more small group content like heroic 5-mans. Thinking back on it, I don't miss raiding in WoW in the slightest, I do however miss the small group experience with guildies, and that experience is completely missing atm. It used to be that I could take a group of more casual friends and do stuff with them. Now? Heroics are one pull, Heroic scenarios take 5~ minutes, challenge modes aren't for the kind of people I'm talking about. Heroics and Scenarios right now, and even at the start of this expansion before gear was a factor, are the most faceroll thing ever for even my most casual scrubcakes of friends. In blues in my offspec I soloed heroic 5-man bosses after hitting 90 and running a few heroics, and they got very boring after a couple runs of each.

I'd never had that experience with WoW before. I ran the BC epics to death. I farmed badges for myself, and kept running groups with my friends for the entirety of the expansion even though I didn't need badges anymore and I never got bored. Same with WLK heroics even though they were easier, they were at least interesting. (Except Oculus and Old Kingdom which I hated until they added incentives to run them.) Cata heroics were a little tough for my most casual of friends, but they were enjoyable. :/

There's really nothing in the game right now that fills the role of heroic 5-mans except from a loot perspective, and honestly it's really not about loot. Loot without the fun? Meh.

[Baine]

If Raids didnt exist, would there acctualy be a lot of players still playing this game?

Before of LFR, a minority of players raided. They did not have the impact they have today, thanks to LFR and flex.

[Talen]

I saw this sentence on mmo champ and it really got me, what the hell has happend over the years?

Nothing. A lot of players in this game don't like raiding for whatever reason. It maybe because they don't like the group dynamics or it may be because they canb't see with all the spell effects or for some other reason.

Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience, what I felt everyone thought was the most fun in the game and what everyone i knew were doing when i played thru Vanilla, BC, WOTLK, Cata.

Raiding has always been an aspect of the game few people ever took part in. That's why LFR was brought in...to make raids economical to develop by ensuring more players actually took part

I mean u did everything else (Gearing up etc) to get to the main goal in the game (Raiding)

There was a time many players were happy not to raid.

Raiding is the only reason im playing this game and so i thought it was for everyone else but i guess times have changed.

No. Most players IMO still prefer not to raid. LFR simply gives those players extra content so they can see the story and get gear upgrades but I suspect a great many of them would be happier still with a 5 man version

If Raids didnt exist, would there acctualy be a lot of players still playing this game?

If we believe Blizzard, 1% of players saw the Sunwell raid whilst it was current. No beat - entered and saw. The game has enough content that raids probably aren't necessary. You'd lose players if they were gone, but the game itself would survive - and you'd get different flavors of 5 mans. If you seriously thought most players in this game care about raiding...then I have to say you're likely mistaken

EJL

[Gliff]

-Said noone ever

[Deleted]

If Raids didnt exist, would there acctualy be a lot of players still playing this game?

Of course raids should exist, but the issue is that current game is practically forcing everyone to do only raids, and that is what's largely responsible for rapidly draining the playerbase.

[Vaelorian]

In Vanilla and TBC at the very least the majority of players played Dungeons as endgame. Sure in Vanilla you had Zul Gurub or something that came along and a lot also flocked to that and in TBC you had Karazhan. But overal 5 mans were ít.

In WOTLK dungeons became very simple and raids (especially when there were catchup mechanics ingame that made previous raid more easy) weren't that hard either people also pugged those. When waiting for those catchup mechanics they did 5 mans.

Then ultimately (fast forward) LFR came along and 5 man became so dull and uninteresting that everyone (especially to progress ones character) was "forced" into LFR.

So yes I hope blizzard will create MORE 5 mans and dungeons with a nice difficulty level where sheeping and expert pulling is required. As I saw on the frontpage, this will happen

[Rafoel]

This whole "raiders are minority" sentence became argument to present situation as "Blizzard shouldn't care about raiders". You know what? Football, here in Europe, remains the most popular sport in schools, most children playing it casually with friends. And, statistically, proffessional footballers are huge minority of all people who play football. Following "Blizzard shouldn't care about raiders" logics, FIFA shouldn't care about proffesionals, cause "hey, that's fans that give you money don't they?".

But they do not. Children play on fields of various sizes, with balls of various sizes, with teams of various sizes. Some rules are often ignored. But still....
Proffessional matches have determined sets of rules that cannot be ignored in any way. And when you say "football" you mostly think about proffessionals... eventhough they are minority.

The analogies are numerous. Indeed, raiders and non-raiders have similar relations as proffesional footballers and casual footballers (who are not neccessarily children). In both cases we have 1st group that engages in that specific activity to compete with our teams, and 2nd group that engages in it only for fun. Between people in 2nd group, there are ones that stare at the 1st group and think how they would want to become members of it. But, there are also people who don't care about 1st group - for them it could as well don't exist.

However, ignoring raiders is the same as ignoring proffesional footballers. Take out their "exlusive" (or "hard to achieve") content, and your competition game will be reduced to hobby, giving no profits to anybody as people lose interest in it.

Seriously, wasting tons of time to create mythic dungeons in cost of, for example, bigger mythic raids is the same as building small 5vs5 football pitches for children in cost of national stadium.

[Deleted]

Seriously, wasting tons of time to create mythic dungeons in cost of, for example, bigger mythic raids is the same as building small 5vs5 football pitches for children in cost of national stadium.

Your analogy is either very flawed in some way or are you actually trying to say "children can go fu*k themselves"?

[LeperHerring]

Raiding is the only reason im playing this game and so i thought it was for everyone else but i guess times have changed.

You're trying to generalize from your own limited experience to the whole playerbase. In vanilla I was a casual and I wanted to do dungeons. I wanted to play in a small team, but I did not want to play in a large organized raid group. I had no interest at all in raids, but I loved 5 mans. I later got into raiding and I liked that too. But it was not some ultimate goal, it was just a change in the way I wanted to play. If I were to come back to WoW now, I'd want the vanilla style 5 man experience while I would have no interest at all in raiding.

[Constraint]

Dungeons were a big part of Classic too, just in case you've forgotten. Raids weren't run every single day/night, and dungeons were EXTREMELY popular as a form of end-game.

[Rafoel]

Your analogy is either very flawed in some way or are you actually trying to say "children can go fu*k themselves"?

You missed the crucial phrase: "IN COST OF". My point is that every rational government builds stadium FIRST, and then, when everything is completed, turn to smaller projects. These small pitches are nice and all, and surely there is a group that will be very happy cause of them, but from the point of "what's better for whole sport" they are not a priority.


And turning to the topics - there is nothing WRONG in mythic dungeons. But, designing them takes time. Time, for which there are dozens, DOZENS of things that require it more.

[LeperHerring]

You missed the crucial phrase: "IN COST OF". My point is that every rational government builds stadium FIRST, and then, when everything is completed, turn to smaller projects.

You seriously think "every rational government" will start out by building massive professional stadiums rather than small pitches for the kids?! Seriously? What kind of fantasyland do you live in?

[Deleted]

We want harder dungeons

Blizz nerf dungeons, it's to hard

[lunchbox2042]

Some people want challenging content for small groups of friends. I don't see why this surprises you.

[hrugner]

There are only three raids I enjoyed as much as I've enjoyed 5 man dungeons. I wouldn't speak for everyone, but I could understand why someone would state the preference of dungeons over raids; and with mop, people have been starved of 5 man dungeons.

[Deleted]

You missed the crucial phrase: "IN COST OF". My point is that every rational government builds stadium FIRST, and then, when everything is completed, turn to smaller projects. These small pitches are nice and all, and surely there is a group that will be very happy cause of them, but from the point of "what's better for whole sport" they are not a priority.

It's actually the complete opposite.
The most successful national teams invest heavily in small and local communities to foster talent, those that invest in grandiose stadiums generally get crappy results.
Just look at England

[Rafoel]

The most successful national teams invest heavily in small and local communities to foster talent, those that invest in grandiose stadiums generally get crappy results.
Just look at England

Dude, England already ahs huge stadiums since like.... forever. They just don't need to build more. Same as Spain.