Poll: What do you think?

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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Think Attumen the Huntsman, Patchwerk or Anub'rekhan and compare them to Magmaw, Halfus or the Stone Guard.
    Anub'rekhan and halfus operated on very similar levels of complexity and magmaw more comparable to patchwerk...

    Stone Guard is a sole outlier there. The reason the cata ones were difficult was simply tuning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #882
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    They've said that heroics will be about as difficult as Vortex Pinnacle was, which wasn't very difficult.

  3. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    When I think of MoP Heroics not being hard, I remember PUGs not understanding just how simple Commander Ri'mok really is and eat Frenzied Assault in the face.
    was tanking this when i first did it, clocked it straight away EVERYONE else dies haha

  4. #884
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Anub'rekhan and halfus operated on very similar levels of complexity and magmaw more comparable to patchwerk...

    Stone Guard is a sole outlier there. The reason the cata ones were difficult was simply tuning.
    Not exactly. With time raiding had more and more mechanics that will simply kill you if screw it up. In the very past if you personally screwed up the encounter was slightly (if even) harder for the rest of the group. Mostly it was much easier to carry bad players.

    And if something was screwed up in tuning part its the TBC heroics. They weren't difficult cause of some special mechanics. The main problem was that stuff hit far too hard considering the gear people who entered them had available (hence the nerf). And you had very limited tools to counter it (CC was the only one tbh and some things were immune to it). In Cata heroics were harder from the pov of operating your class. Various CDs, CC, interrupts (I can't recall any critical need for interrupts in TBC heroics) - you needed to coordinate all those skill with your team assuming you were aware you had them and/or understood what they are doing (and that was the problem of far too many people in Cata). For someone long familiar with their class it was obvious and made Cata heroics easy. For a new player it wasn't and made Cata heroics undoable.

    As I personally don't think the content should be dumbed down, the only good solution is to make the game teach the players. If it doesn't, new players will need dumbed down content to start tho ultimatly it will be poor solution creating even bigger gap between the good and the bad.

  5. #885
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    The key reason they can do this is because they're bringing back level cap Normals. So you're no longer directly into Heroics when you hit 100. They'll be harder, but those saying "it'll be Cata hard" are fooling themselves.
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The key reason they can do this is because they're bringing back level cap Normals. So you're no longer directly into Heroics when you hit 100...
    Yup, why make lots of content when they can get away with making a small amount, adding an extra level or two of difficulty and then claiming that it is the same as lots of content.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The key reason they can do this is because they're bringing back level cap Normals. So you're no longer directly into Heroics when you hit 100. They'll be harder, but those saying "it'll be Cata hard" are fooling themselves.
    Actually Blizzard have said they're aiming for pre-nerf Vortex Pinnacle difficulty. Granted this was one of the easier Cata heroics, but there were at least a few bits that required competence.

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Actually Blizzard have said they're aiming for pre-nerf Vortex Pinnacle difficulty. Granted this was one of the easier Cata heroics, but there were at least a few bits that required competence.
    I hope so, I'm so tired have being forced to do LFR so I can gear up for normals, if heroics are used as an alternative to LFR I will be so happy.

  9. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Anub'rekhan and halfus operated on very similar levels of complexity and magmaw more comparable to patchwerk...

    Stone Guard is a sole outlier there. The reason the cata ones were difficult was simply tuning.
    I completely disagree with your equivocation.

    Anub'rekhan, Patchwerk and Attumen were pretty much tank and spanks and not a lot else. That's how introductory tier bosses should be, really.

    Halfus had a taunt-swap, target switching, random elements, an interrupt and was tuned considerably tighter.
    Magmaw had stack-and-move, tank cooldowns, a burst phase and was also tuned considerably tighter.

    Arguing that those bosses were in any way comparable to the entry bosses before them, honestly, baffles me; I've no idea how anyone could say otherwise.

    Nowt queer as folk, I suppose.

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I completely disagree with your equivocation.

    Anub'rekhan, Patchwerk and Attumen were pretty much tank and spanks and not a lot else. That's how introductory tier bosses should be, really.

    Halfus had a taunt-swap, target switching, random elements, an interrupt and was tuned considerably tighter.
    Magmaw had stack-and-move, tank cooldowns, a burst phase and was also tuned considerably tighter.

    Arguing that those bosses were in any way comparable to the entry bosses before them, honestly, baffles me; I've no idea how anyone could say otherwise.

    Nowt queer as folk, I suppose.
    Magmaw was the best introductory boss I ever fought ever. Too bad the progression path for tier 11 was kinda odd, since I wouldn't say Halfus was easier than the Omnitron Defense System or Maloriak.

  11. #891
    I jumped for joy. I missed the old cata heroics difficulty. Mop was way too easy
    Bane

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    All Lilija is saying is that more experienced players tend to be better than less experienced ones. Clearly, there will be exceptions to this rule but, in general, that's the way it is.

    The Stone Guard was a horrible entry level boss for new players who'd levelled up and found no challenge in heroic dungeons. For those who've been playing since before Cataclysm, it was pretty manageable because many had seen it before.

    Think Attumen the Huntsman, Patchwerk or Anub'rekhan and compare them to Magmaw, Halfus or the Stone Guard.

    The difference is massive, and newer players got smashed because they weren't ready for content the game hadn't prepared them for. More experienced players got through it with much more ease, particularly if they were playing with longer-term raiders.
    Compared to my three expansions experience of raiding, Stone Guard was a miss placed boss with a tank swap mechanic that is usually seen far later in tiers. That fight largely came down to did the tanks fuck up or not and if they didnt then it was kinda easy for everyone else. The responsibility balance of that fight was too far on the tanks with an expectation that you had two seasoned tanks. Even the next fight was throwing a new ability at tanks that they never used before with an even easier job for the dps and healers. Fast forward to Terrace being the last raid and the mechanics for those fights was overall a joke in comparison to both Vaults and Heart of Fear. Terrace was a bloody bore as a DPS with the focus still being on the tanks and healers.

    Personally it felt like the opening tier was designed to make PuGs fail and turn to LFR. Had terrace been first then I think it would have been a different story. I am coming from a server that ran T11 PuGs at launch and even Fireland PuGs. Both of which was available pre and past prime time hours. PuGs still went on in MoP but heavily biased expectation on hard to come by roles like tanks hurt the amount of players who could get groups going.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Magmaw was the best introductory boss I ever fought ever. Too bad the progression path for tier 11 was kinda odd, since I wouldn't say Halfus was easier than the Omnitron Defense System or Maloriak.
    Most of the Magmaw QQ was players complaining about a big telegraphed event of a giant worm slamming on the ground. T11 also had balance issues on 10 man in part due to class make up and 25 man being under tuned in some cases making some fights a joke. In 10 man some fights was trivialized with certain comps despite others being balanced. T11 fights was fun though and I had high hopes for Cata from launch and instead went down hill
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-12-17 at 09:36 PM.

  13. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Magmaw was the best introductory boss I ever fought ever. Too bad the progression path for tier 11 was kinda odd, since I wouldn't say Halfus was easier than the Omnitron Defense System or Maloriak.
    Not sure I agree about Magmaw, but you have a very good point about the progression; I'd argue that Maloriak, ODS and (particularly) Atramedes were all easier than Halfus.

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Compared to my three expansions experience of raiding, Stone Guard was a miss placed boss with a tank swap mechanic that is usually seen far later in tiers. That fight largely came down to did the tanks fuck up or not and if they didnt then it was kinda easy for everyone else. The responsibility balance of that fight was too far on the tanks with an expectation that you had two seasoned tanks. Even the next fight was throwing a new ability at tanks that they never used before with an even easier job for the dps and healers. Fast forward to Terrace being the last raid and the mechanics for those fights was overall a joke in comparison to both Vaults and Heart of Fear. Terrace was a bloody bore as a DPS with the focus still being on the tanks and healers.
    Erm, yeah; I'd go with that. Any fight that has a single point of failure is putting expectation on seasoned players, which most folks aren't. Again, as with tier 11, I thought tier 14 was all over the place regarding difficulty. Statistically, the Heart of Fear threw a significant number of normal guilds onto the scrapheap and into LFR, while Shek'zeer was a mandatory kill for entering a far simpler instance in the Terrace of Endless Spring. The linear nature of these instances didn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Personally it felt like the opening tier was designed to make PuGs fail and turn to LFR. Had terrace been first then I think it would have been a different story. I am coming from a server that ran T11 PuGs at launch and even Fireland PuGs. Both of which was available pre and past prime time hours. PuGs still went on in MoP but heavily biased expectation on hard to come by roles like tanks hurt the amount of players who could get groups going.
    That mirrors my view pretty accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Most of the Magmaw QQ was players complaining about a big telegraphed event of a giant worm slamming on the ground. T11 also had balance issues on 10 man in part due to class make up and 25 man being under tuned in some cases making some fights a joke. In 10 man some fights was trivialized with certain comps despite others being balanced. T11 fights was fun though and I had high hopes for Cata from launch and instead went down hill
    It was mentioned yesterday, but Cataclysm's (and MoP followed this) tuning was nowhere near forgiving enough for new players when there were complicated mechanics flying around. That's why things like Bloodlust and Rebirth found their way to other classes, you simply couldn't get by without them in 10-man.

  14. #894
    Deleted
    Nobody wants hard heroic 5 mans, lets be honest. I prefer to whizz through them at 100 MPH and forget about them 5 seconds later, I really don't care much for these threads, Blizzard will make them slightly tougher but as said in this thread its relative and if the current heroics are anything to go by then I don't think we will have anything to worry about. Blizzard are going to keep the masses satisfied and being a casual that just wants to log on 2 hours a week and blast through everything and log off until the next reset of LFR I don't think I have anything to worry about because Blizzard cares as much for my monthly sub as they do the devoted Blizzard/WoW fan that desperately wants the game to be successful.

  15. #895
    Nobody wants hard heroic 5 mans, lets be honest.
    The poll proves that wrong.

  16. #896
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    The poll proves that wrong.
    Biassed sample. Poll proves nothing.
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  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I completely disagree with your equivocation.

    Anub'rekhan, Patchwerk and Attumen were pretty much tank and spanks and not a lot else. That's how introductory tier bosses should be, really.
    Anub'rekhan in mechanics was FAR from tank n spank. The only reason you could was that naxx is teh most undertuned raid ever released by blizzard. Spreading for spikes, taking care of adds quickly before they overwhelmed tanks, and kiting anub himself during aoe silence phase are pretty much magmaw with more threat (silence being much worse)

    Halfus had a taunt-swap, target switching, random elements, an interrupt and was tuned considerably tighter.
    Magmaw had stack-and-move, tank cooldowns, a burst phase and was also tuned considerably tighter.
    Tuning is not an argument to mechanics. As mentioned above. Magmaw had no important burst phase, it was just "free damage" on normal mode (entry). You gained nothing but bursting it faster or slower. You had reason to stack on magmaw either other than that tuning and the healing requirements vs how shit mana regen was in blues/greens.

    And what tank cooldowns?

    Arguing that those bosses were in any way comparable to the entry bosses before them, honestly, baffles me; I've no idea how anyone could say otherwise.

    Nowt queer as folk, I suppose.
    Your argument comes down to tuning. What happens if you got a scion / time / whelps on halfus? It was literally a tank n spank. scion / storm / whelps / time? just an interrupt thrown in. only with slate do you add the tank swap in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Biassed sample. Poll proves nothing.
    I'm pretty sure that it proves that over a thousand MMO-C users would like harder heroics, and thus the statement "nobody wants hard heroics" is wrong.

  19. #899
    Immortal Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Cool.

    I'm of the opinion TBC and Cata heroics weren't very difficult either, having to use an ounce of CC during some trash pulls and moving out of the swirling gray/purple shit on the floor during a boss fight doesn't make it hard. It makes it not embarrassingly easy.
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  20. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    The poll proves that wrong.
    The poll proves that a few people answered a poll a certain way.

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