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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    Where exactly did these non-hardcores, but to whom WoW was not their first MMO, come from to give the word of mouth? It was exactly the word of mouth from the "hardcores" (with todays standards everyone who played mmo before wow would count as one), to the players from other genres that made WoW viral. Without that the accessibility of WoW compared to other MMOs at the time would have been completely wasted.
    WoW launched with tremendous hype because it was a game by Blizzard, the Western world's most beloved game developer, and a continuation of the long-running and hugely successful Warcraft series. It was also the subject of a massive marketing campaign. The idea that it was a "viral" success spurred on by a small minority of hardcore EverQuest raider types is laughable idiocy.

    The raider minority has never, ever, ever been relevant to anyone who was not a part of it. Listening to its members try to claim otherwise has always been as hilarious as it was sad.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Bad players don't necessarily think they should be rewarded. But they also don't think that a game that doesn't reward them should get their business.

    "Should" is a two way street.
    What I don't get is why would people keep playing a game that they suck royal ass at? Even if a game showers me with rewards, if I am shitty at it (compared to other players) and I cannot improve, I don't continue to play it. The ability of people to accept mediocrity just stuns the shit out of me.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Oh, that is absolutely a facet of what they are doing. The functional downfall of this attempt is in NOT being able to dumb down the content so far that EVERY paying member will be able to play their role and successfully complete this content without being willing to at least put forth some minimal effort. Compound that with immature players who take the pvp mentality overboard and think nothing of seeking LF"R" groups to harass, derail, and troll.

    The ONLY way for Blizzard to make LF"R" a success is to stick to their statement of making it "movie mode". But guess what? The players who are unwilling to put in any more effort than pressing their "I" key and clicking on find group will not be satisfied with that because they feel in some way entitled to baby raid gear. This is not their fault because Blizzard was the one that put it in their head in the first place as that "carrot" designed to lure the donkey to pull the cart.

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    Yep. I was in a raid going through Naxx one day and just to be flippant to a rather dumb question answered "your mamma". I had absolutely no reason for saying it other than to be funny. The person wigged out stating that their mother had been dead ten years and I should be ashamed of myself for saying anything about her.............................
    LFR probably still needs to have gear imo. Having it as a movie mode will mean people do it once and never again and then what do they do next. Historically most people don't do raids so we won't realistically expect them to jump into Normal/Heroic in WoD.

    For me personally if my friends continue to play in WoD in enough numbers that we can do "normal" runs via the flex tech then I will be quite happy with that. So far in MoP I was LFR only due to a combination of work making it unrealistic to commit to a raid guild and a lack of friends who I could raid with. Now with Flex we can raid at odd times with a few of us and just grab some randoms from Openraid/friends list.

    If LFR did not have gear I would have quit playing as I would have no reason to do anything after killing a boss once. But having gear to work on gave me something to work towards.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Yep. I was in a raid going through Naxx one day and just to be flippant to a rather dumb question answered "your mamma". I had absolutely no reason for saying it other than to be funny. The person wigged out stating that their mother had been dead ten years and I should be ashamed of myself for saying anything about her.............................
    ^^ this guy gets it.

  5. #305
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I can more easily make a factual case based on management statements that Raid Finder was created to justify continuing to spend a great deal of time and resources on making raids the primary attraction of the game. You have a supposition.
    Sure, but when it turns out that the experience is bad and the "non-raid" feeling of it (also management statement) diminishes the value of said raid zone, it can actually work as a justification for the other direction: that the raids should be designed half-assed because they will be afked through in LFR anyway, and the resources should be used to something that is actually played as it was designed, so that the hard work that was put in to it, wont be diminished. Exactly the same reason why "fun" exploits get hotfixed quickly.

  6. #306
    I see gear as a carrot on a stick? I raid because I love the encounts I love the design an I love the feeling of progression. I raid because I love the feel of raiding.

    Gear is the incentive for LFR. Without gear the mode would die. What I was getting at was why do LFR players have such an interest in the gear when they don't care about the game around them? Why are you so determined to earn a legendary if you don't plan on using it or more than soloing molten core?

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    LFR probably still needs to have gear imo. Having it as a movie mode will mean people do it once and never again and then what do they do next. Historically most people don't do raids so we won't realistically expect them to jump into Normal/Heroic in WoD.

    For me personally if my friends continue to play in WoD in enough numbers that we can do "normal" runs via the flex tech then I will be quite happy with that. So far in MoP I was LFR only due to a combination of work making it unrealistic to commit to a raid guild and a lack of friends who I could raid with. Now with Flex we can raid at odd times with a few of us and just grab some randoms from Openraid/friends list.

    If LFR did not have gear I would have quit playing as I would have no reason to do anything after killing a boss once. But having gear to work on gave me something to work towards.
    as the content is intended to entice you to move on to real raiding, part of that enticement could be the age ole "lookey what I got"
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I can more easily make a factual case based on management statements that Raid Finder was created to justify continuing to spend a great deal of time and resources on making raids the primary attraction of the game. You have a supposition.
    Most definitely. But that was e cause of the Cata changes to 10M that left the game without a easy mode for raids. Tier 11/12 were unforgiving in normal mode and brutal in heroic compared to Wrath.

    But the question is now that they have Flexible scaling that allows drop in drop out gameplay, xrealm raiding and making a group search function, what space does LFR still hold? It seems simply like a place for those who are bad players or antisocial players, neither of which should be encouraged. Yes they will exist but enabling them is a mistake.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    as the content is intended to entice you to move on to real raiding, part of that enticement could be the age ole "lookey what I got"
    The issue would be how you get the gear to move into normal/heroic raiding from LFR. Not only that if players do LFR and think ok so I can do this other mode and get better gear cool. How do I do that? Oh I need to join a raiding guild and set aside x amount of time each week and I have to bid on gear etc etc. You see where I am going with this. For me it has never been a problem but I can see why players may (new players) see the road to raiding as a bit daunting.

    Flex has proven popular and I think is not really much more difficult than LFR from the wings ive completed so far. I am all for them trying to get players into other raid modes but I think removing gear is not an option. Have the gear as a watered down version and have the other modes have more gear items (so say 15 extra items in normal and 25 in heroic and extra 10 in mythic for example along with mounts etc). LFR is an easy and effective way to get gear catchups for later tiers for new and returning players and removing gear also hurts that (and filthy alts!).

    I've suggested it before, make proving grounds a factor in your raid progression. Have it so for LFR you require item level at "x" amount along with a bronze achievement in proving grounds for your chosen spec. Bronze proving grounds are very easy and can be used as a way to teach new players about things to expect in the raid.
    Last edited by khalltusk; 2013-12-19 at 06:02 PM.

  10. #310
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Qalaq View Post
    WoW launched with tremendous hype because it was a game by Blizzard, the Western world's most beloved game developer, and a continuation of the long-running and hugely successful Warcraft series. It was also the subject of a massive marketing campaign. The idea that it was a "viral" success spurred on by a small minority of hardcore EverQuest raider types is laughable idiocy.

    The raider minority has never, ever, ever been relevant to anyone who was not a part of it. Listening to its members try to claim otherwise has always been as hilarious as it was sad.
    Raiders are the most influental group in WoW, and have always been. Hell, the whole final design was done by raiders from EQ. Just accept it, and move on. They and pvp'ers are actually only ones who have the know-how and ability to even propose changes that make sense, which is why Blizzard always keep reminding us that they have direct relations with the best raiders and pvp'ers, while the players who are not part of that elite, get to do their influence by stats.

    And the viral campaing from "hardcores" is exactly why it became so huge and not just another success. Not in their wildest dreams did Blizzard hope that they would have the launch that they had, because it's extremely hard (or atleast was back then) to make something so viral. It was mainly thanks to Blizzards engineers that made the game feel like no MMO had before it.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The issue would be how you get the gear to move into normal/heroic raiding from LFR. Not only that if players do LFR and think ok so I can do this other mode and get better gear cool. How do I do that? Oh I need to join a raiding guild and set aside x amount of time each week and I have to bid on gear etc etc. You see where I am going with this. For me it has never been a problem but I can see why players may (new players) see the road to raiding as a bit daunting.

    Flex has proven popular and I think is not really much more difficult than LFR from the wings ive completed so far. I am all for them trying to get players into other raid modes but I think removing gear is not an option. Have the gear as a watered down version and have the other modes have more gear items (so say 15 extra items in normal and 25 in heroic and extra 10 in mythic for example along with mounts etc). LFR is an easy and effective way to get gear catchups for later tiers for new and returning players and removing gear also hurts that (and filthy alts!)
    Flex is definitely not much more difficult than LF"R", of course none of the content is "hard" once you wrap your head around the root concepts that cause wipes.

    Arguably the "jump" in gearing is only created by players that were not achieving during the prior tier. This boulder has been rolling down hill for years with the heroic raiders always having a jump on the next tier due to already over-gearing it the day they step into it.

    The complaint of "I don't have gear" is normally %99.99 of the time simply an excuse. There are players who find a way to get it done with less all the time. Question is are you as an individual ok with being average or even sucking when the same tools are ALWAYS out there for you to use.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Flex is definitely not much more difficult than LF"R", of course none of the content is "hard" once you wrap your head around the root concepts that cause wipes.

    Arguably the "jump" in gearing is only created by players that were not achieving during the prior tier. This boulder has been rolling down hill for years with the heroic raiders always having a jump on the next tier due to already over-gearing it the day they step into it.

    The complaint of "I don't have gear" is normally %99.99 of the time simply an excuse. There are players who find a way to get it done with less all the time. Question is are you as an individual ok with being average or even sucking when the same tools are ALWAYS out there for you to use.
    The majority of the player base would not be good enough to do what the cutting edge lot do, we both know this though. Most people when they join the game would have had to rely on pugs or guilds still running old content to get the gear to enable them selves to get into pugs or guilds doing the current content. In TBC this was achieved via guild hopping (same in vanilla). You joined a lesser guild got some upgrades and jumped ship. Saw it so many times. Hell I even poached people we needed in BC.

    Wrath had less of an issue as pugs were far more common. LFR though sees more people raiding in it than all the other raid modes. So clearly it has an audience. I think rather than restricting rewards from LFR we should do more (by we I mean blizzard) to get them to step up. Proving grounds imo is in a perfect place to do this. I may be a bit biased as frankly i've had a fairly positive experience in LFR (it kept me playing while I was in the wilderness of raiding when my mates no longer played). Now i've had a taste of flex I am more inclined to do that mode only rather than use LFR anymore as with the guys I play with its far more fun. Certainly when my offtank and I troll each other

    Looking at WoD setup I think we could be onto a winner, all modes aside Mythic using flex tech. All the tools in the world to see this content we should hopefully make a lot more people happy.

  13. #313
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    Sure, but when it turns out that the experience is bad and the "non-raid" feeling of it (also management statement) diminishes the value of said raid zone, it can actually work as a justification for the other direction: that the raids should be designed half-assed because they will be afked through in LFR anyway, and the resources should be used to something that is actually played as it was designed, so that the hard work that was put in to it, wont be diminished. Exactly the same reason why "fun" exploits get hotfixed quickly.
    Are you stipulating that the raid MoP tier designs were half-assed at the normal/heroic difficulties? Because that's how they are designed and then LFR is nerfed from there to insure a more-or-less successful experience. As for people AFKing through it, those people--many of whom are quick to call others lazy without a shred of self-awareness--are more the problem than the design ever will be.

    If you believe that the harder difficulties suffered in some way due to LFR, that's an opinion (probably an incorrect one). If you aren't I don't quite see your point. And if you're one of the "WoW should be hard work" crowd, other than telling you that it's a video game I don't have a lot for you. Your 'hard work' and success at the higher difficulties should be a source of self-satisfaction. What others do is really none of your business and I have no idea at all why you and others like yourself think it is.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    Little off topic, but the "I paid my 15 bucks and want it all" attitude is strange and also one of the things, I think, that is cultivated by the anti-social aspect of online.
    It's very off-topic, but it frequently comes up in these threads because some people feel that it is implicitly obvious that LFR was made in response to some universal demand for raid content. Based on the lack of evidence to support this claim I sincerely believe that attitude to be, with a few exceptions, fictional. I believe that players insisting that it is real are confusing it for the more prevalent attitude that, "I paid my 15 bucks and want something to do in the game or I have no reason to remain subscribed." Since Blizzard opted to gut every form of end game that didn't directly relate to raiding in some manner the only option remaining to those players is LFR.

    The distinction is subtle, but it is a distinction nonetheless. I agree that, "I want it all," is entitled. However, "I want something in exchange for my money," is only logical. Why would anyone want to pay money for a game that gave them nothing to do?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  15. #315
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But the question is now that they have Flexible scaling that allows drop in drop out gameplay, xrealm raiding and making a group search function, what space does LFR still hold?
    The same space it's occupied from the beginning: a guaranteed slot in a 'raid' (of sorts) not subject to the whims of a RL who demands 540 ilevel gear for an instance designed to be achievable in gear that's 20-30 ilevels lower. You are proposing that Flex does that? And see below. The point is to make raiding the only PVE end game for everyone, no matter the skill level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It's very off-topic, but it frequently comes up in these threads because some people feel that it is implicitly obvious that LFR was made in response to some universal demand for raid content. Based on the lack of evidence to support this claim I sincerely believe that attitude to be, with a few exceptions, fictional. I believe that players insisting that it is real are confusing it for the more prevalent attitude that, "I paid my 15 bucks and want something to do in the game or I have no reason to remain subscribed." Since Blizzard opted to gut every form of end game that didn't directly relate to raiding in some manner the only option remaining to those players is LFR.
    It's an important point. Blizzard made a bet with LFR that beyond justifying the costs of raid design they could increase the long-term viability of their game by designing around raiding as a universal end game. A bet that I would have questioned to begin with and which observation over the course of an expansion would confirm to have been a loser. This is not to say that LFR should go away and that raiding should be returned to the five percent. It is to say that raiding as the only end game for all players was a bad idea.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-19 at 06:36 PM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If you're one of the "WoW should be hard work" crowd, other than telling you that it's a video game I don't have a lot for you. Your 'hard work' and success at the higher difficulties should be a source of self-satisfaction. What others do is really none of your business and I have no idea at all why you and others like yourself think it is.
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.

  17. #317
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.
    Just as it's difficult to see posters whose armories show them to be competent at heroic mode raiding proud of the fact that they can AFK through Raid Finder because they need a trinket. There's plenty of bad behavior/whining on both sides. I don't approve of any of it personally.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    To suggest that there is a universally accepted line that seperates "offensive" and "not offensive" is just wrong. Some people get offended at stuff that wouldn't offend 95% of people.
    Yes, but I regularly see stuff that would offend 95% of people. I honestly am waiting for the day I see a news "expose" featuring screenshots of the stuff that pops up in public chat channels daily. I've also seen people claim that content is inoffensive because 95% of people in their guild (that is, more often than not, entirely composed of young twenty-something males) don't take any offense to it. They fail to realize that their guild comprises a very small portion of the player population as a whole and that, even though they're free to say whatever they want in their own guild chat, the rest of the game should (and does) adhere to different standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I was in a raid going through Naxx one day and just to be flippant to a rather dumb question answered "your mamma".
    In many cultures insulting someone's mother is one of the worst possible offenses imaginable. I thought you were in the reserves. How did you get through basic training without getting your ass kicked?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Gear is the incentive for LFR. Without gear the mode would die. What I was getting at was why do LFR players have such an interest in the gear when they don't care about the game around them? Why are you so determined to earn a legendary if you don't plan on using it or more than soloing molten core?
    Not that I plan on soloing MC, but someone who did would want the cape because it would reduce the time it took for them to solo their MC runs. MC is an extreme example, however. I'm sure there are people soloing ICC or Firelands. Ironically, they're doing it for the Legendaries, even though those legendaries may be laughably bad in comparison to even MoP green gear. Sometimes it's fun to set a goal and work towards it, even if the goal is easy to accomplish. That's actually the driving principle behind most MMOs: give players easy goals to meet in a persistent virtual world. The number of people who take that to an extreme and set difficult virtual goals is much lower than what these forums lead you to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But the question is now that they have Flexible scaling that allows drop in drop out gameplay, xrealm raiding and making a group search function, what space does LFR still hold? It seems simply like a place for those who are bad players or antisocial players, neither of which should be encouraged. Yes they will exist but enabling them is a mistake.
    It holds the space that used to be occupied by heroic 5-mans. Remember the ICC and ToC 5-mans? Those were discarded in favor of LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Flex is definitely not much more difficult than LF"R", of course none of the content is "hard" once you wrap your head around the root concepts that cause wipes.
    That's only because most people will only run with others in 540+ gear. I guarantee that if you ran Flex with 25 random players in 510 ilevel gear you would reconsider that statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.
    When you "work hard" and "put your all" into a game it's hard to sympathize with the notion that everyone else should have to "work" as hard as you did at screwing around in a game in order to get something out of it. I guarantee that the sooner you step back and put in-game activities into perspective the happier you'll be in the long run.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    What I don't get is why would people keep playing a game that they suck royal ass at?
    They is no reason they should. And, more to the point, they often don't.

    Which leads the developers of said game to change the game. And then the Snowflake Brigade complains about "dumbing down".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The issue would be how you get the gear to move into normal/heroic raiding from LFR. Not only that if players do LFR and think ok so I can do this other mode and get better gear cool. How do I do that? Oh I need to join a raiding guild and set aside x amount of time each week and I have to bid on gear etc etc. You see where I am going with this. For me it has never been a problem but I can see why players may (new players) see the road to raiding as a bit daunting.

    Flex has proven popular and I think is not really much more difficult than LFR from the wings ive completed so far. I am all for them trying to get players into other raid modes but I think removing gear is not an option. Have the gear as a watered down version and have the other modes have more gear items (so say 15 extra items in normal and 25 in heroic and extra 10 in mythic for example along with mounts etc). LFR is an easy and effective way to get gear catchups for later tiers for new and returning players and removing gear also hurts that (and filthy alts!).

    I've suggested it before, make proving grounds a factor in your raid progression. Have it so for LFR you require item level at "x" amount along with a bronze achievement in proving grounds for your chosen spec. Bronze proving grounds are very easy and can be used as a way to teach new players about things to expect in the raid.
    Well having 4 modes isn't helping that transition be easier. If we didn't have a ton of different modes people wouldn't need to hear through LFR to gear through Flex to get into normal do they could do heroic. ToT is barely a viable gearing path right now, which is a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, but I regularly see stuff that would offend 95% of people. I honestly am waiting for the day I see a news "expose" featuring screenshots of the stuff that pops up in public chat channels daily. I've also seen people claim that content is inoffensive because 95% of people in their guild (that is, more often than not, entirely composed of young twenty-something males) don't take any offense to it. They fail to realize that their guild comprises a very small portion of the player population as a whole and that, even though they're free to say whatever they want in their own guild chat, the rest of the game should (and does) adhere to different standards.

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    In many cultures insulting someone's mother is one of the worst possible offenses imaginable. I thought you were in the reserves. How did you get through basic training without getting your ass kicked?

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    Not that I plan on soloing MC, but someone who did would want the cape because it would reduce the time it took for them to solo their MC runs. MC is an extreme example, however. I'm sure there are people soloing ICC or Firelands. Ironically, they're doing it for the Legendaries, even though those legendaries may be laughably bad in comparison to even MoP green gear. Sometimes it's fun to set a goal and work towards it, even if the goal is easy to accomplish. That's actually the driving principle behind most MMOs: give players easy goals to meet in a persistent virtual world. The number of people who take that to an extreme and set difficult virtual goals is much lower than what these forums lead you to believe.

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    It holds the space that used to be occupied by heroic 5-mans. Remember the ICC and ToC 5-mans? Those were discarded in favor of LFR.

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    That's only because most people will only run with others in 540+ gear. I guarantee that if you ran Flex with 25 random players in 510 ilevel gear you would reconsider that statement.

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    When you "work hard" and "put your all" into a game it's hard to sympathize with the notion that everyone else should have to "work" as hard as you did at screwing around in a game in order to get something out of it. I guarantee that the sooner you step back and put in-game activities into perspective the happier you'll be in the long run.
    It was created in response to the drop in usage of Cata raids because the increase in difficulty. When it was created they released HoT heroics to act as a gear catchup to get into Dragon Soul. SINCE THEN Blizzard has been coasting on LFR as justification to develop less content and simply focus on one thing.

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