Really tired of hearing "Which mage or hunter wants to sit"

[Libertarian]

Or you could be a top end guild and realize a raid CD dpser is more valuable than a hunter/mage that brings no CD of equal DPS

thok 10m says hello

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Hunters are topping the meters... If you aren't playing SV and min/maxing, it sounds you're the one not doing your job, not the raid leader.

BM is just as good if not better. Extremely ignorant statement.

[Dasani]

yes lets have the melee with the highest survivability and utility to the raid reroll...

He didn't say rogue....

Silly.

Also, top end guilds are done with the content. Everything is on farm now. So all you have left are the "somewhat better than average" guilds that are still working their way through heroic progression. With the extra months to gear up in all this time, theres really no reason to sit anyone unless you just have a shit raid comp in the first place which is more of a 10-man problem that lulzy 25s. And any actual top end guild that has already had this mess on farm for quite some time now can do it again without needing to sit people as well. If they can't, and seriously can only down bosses with the absolute best raid comp they can scrap together, they are barely squeeking by in the first place.

The actual top end raid guilds HAVE to absolutely min/max their raid because they do this shit when they are grossly, grossly undergeared for the content. They have to squeeze out as much of everything as they possibly can to have a chance. People doing the shit right now have had MONTHS of weekly gearing and there is absolutely no need to sit anyone unless they are garbage.

[Deleted]

So any US 25man that kills Heroic Garrosh today will be ranked US 33rd. That seems top end to me. Not world first material but I would definitely consider that top end.

Let's also change it to "we're world first! World first guild to kill garrosh with exactly this raidcomp with this itemlevel with these players and this weather outside!"

C'mon, US 33rd is like world 200... You can't just look at US.

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mages-wise, either you are the top dps or you have no right to be in the raid. and this is from a mage. if im not able to top meters and at least rank top5 on WOL on most fights I can't justify my spot in the raid.

This makes zero sense. Ranking on WoL is based around your spec only, so it has nothing to do with class balance.

Also, warlocks beat mages on almost any fight. Could you link me your armory? You seem to have no clue what you're talking about, so I'd like to check those claims of top 5 ranks on WoL and always topping raids.

[Speedlance]

nm, I'll keep it my secret :P

[Deleted]

We dont allmost ever have hunter or mage sitting. Hunter is best class for siege hc and they both are good at klaxxi cos of invi and fd.

[Tehterokkar]

Dracodraco and similar guys with stereotypes are the reason you should bring class, not the player.

He compares mdd and rdd.
He compares hunter and elem - meanwhile elem is padding spec right now(press chain lightning at right times for ranking).

I recall Chain Lightning being a single target DPS increase because of Mastery procs and Fulmination charges, on say, Klaxxi, using 1-2 CL instead of LB after every Earth Shock will get you full Lightning Shield charges and then can use every Earth Shock CD with full Fulmination.

[Vakna]

There are two situations as I see it.

Cutting Edge guilds and players - Here hunters and mages are not fine, but the people at this level of progression understand that you must make sacrifices to be the best, and will change class or use their alts for progression instead. If you don't have that mindset, then you are not a top guild.

Every other guild/player - Hunters and Mages are absolutely fine here, nowhere in my 7 years of WoW experience have I EVER seen someone be turned away from a group based on just the class they play, it simply does not happen anywhere outside of the top guilds.

The state of a class is irrelevant unless you are pushing for a top rank, Hunters and Mages are not so bad that you can't kill a boss with them. And if you are pushing for a top rank, you will suck it up and make sacrifices for the greater good. There are always going to be underdogs every tier, always.

But it seems this thread is turning away from logical reasoning and more into the usual elitist cesspool of "any guild below mine is shitty and has irrelevant opinions" comments popping up.

[kamuimac]

Depends on what you qualify as "top end". Top 100 world? Top 50 US/EU? Is any guild still progressing not considered top end?

if u are still progressing 4 months after tier is out then yes u are not a top end - u may be a very good guild just top end is top end -_-

[Valkors]

Rank 10 brawler at ilvl 440 is harder then killing garrosh hc Proving grounds 44 waves at ilvl 440 is also harder, So I consider myself a world class hunter

Impossible to get rank 10 due to dps requirements on snake one. Nice try though. Proving grounds is pretty easy so I would compare proving grounds to rank 7 brawler.

[Vakna]

Impossible to get rank 10 due to dps requirements on snake one. Nice try though. Proving grounds is pretty easy so I would compare proving grounds to rank 7 brawler.

Proving grounds endless with 440 far from easy mate.

[Squall]

You guys really argue with "It is okay for Hunter to be worse in dps and utility (with same ilvl and skill), because in slower progressing guilds it doesn't matter"? Sorry, but that's really stupid, and that's absolutly not the way anyone should want WoW to be balanced.

And it's even wrong that it doesn't matter, for us (world ~60) for example pushing Garrosh p3 tp p4 with only one empowered whirling made the fight significantly easier and probably saved us days of progression, but it wouldn't have happened with less dps. There will be such points for many bosses for many guilds on all levels of progression, where more dps and more raid cds will help to down a boss with less time. I've been in several raiding from casual to less casual in the past, and in everyone of them dps and raid cds did acutally matter pretty much.

[Tehterokkar]

Proving grounds endless with 440 far from easy mate.

It's easy mode as Hunter, because we scale so badly from secondary stats, we have no breakpoints and with the amount of sockets we can get at the moment, our agility is boosted by a great deal which is by far the best stat for Hunters.

[Nightspear]

It's easy mode as Hunter, because we scale so badly from secondary stats, we have no breakpoints and with the amount of sockets we can get at the moment, our agility is boosted by a great deal which is by far the best stat for Hunters.

provinggrounds is 480 - scaling down to 440 (40ilvls) means you cant really do that many waves cause you don't have the dps. I really think endless waves 30 is imposible at that ilvl. Tho at the right ilvl (480) its not that hard.

[Renisis86]

So I had a similar situation happen to me in TOT. I was raiding heroics and being sat. I got upset, and then took a step back and looked at what was going on. First My damage was not on par with some top few DPS. I wasnt behind by much but I was 3-5 consistently. I then looked at my gear compared to everyone elses and noticed I was a good 5-12 ilvl behind most of the raid team. I wasn't doing what I needed to do in order to show up with with the best possible character I could. After that I took time the next few weeks to complete my legendary cloak, get my meta gem, and double upgrade every slot and save up valor for when I got the upgrades. And After that I wasn't sat so much. So heres the deal, you need to look and make sure you are doing everything you can to bring the best toon. The 10 man has fallen apart and now i am raiding 25m and I don't sit out nearly as much as I use to because of the mindset of bringing the best character I can.

[Whales96]

Just because you don't have raid cooldowns doesn't mean you bring no utility. Hunters can be a very strong class in a raid.

[mistahwilshire]

Just because you don't have raid cooldowns doesn't mean you bring no utility. Hunters can be a very strong class in a raid.

Posts like this with no context prove absolutely nothing other than your sheer ignorance of the topic.

The 'utility' Hunters bring is mirrored and often improved by basically anyone else. If you can do what Hunters do while having additional utility and superior DPS, what's the point of the Hunter?

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Hunters are topping the meters... If you aren't playing SV and min/maxing, it sounds you're the one not doing your job, not the raid leader.

Again, these completely ignorant posts provide absolutely nothing. Hunters are absolutely not topping meters unless half the other DPS classes in your raid are horrendous. Don't speak on a subject you clearly don't know about. That's a serious contributing factor as to why Hunters will continue remaining one of the most bland, mediocre, and lacking classes in the game.

[Whales96]

Or C), bring a DPS with a cooldown that makes them able to beat the thing they are struggling with, instead of a DPS without one.
Oh wait, that's what we're complaining about, isn't it? Right. I forgot.

You seem to think that it's not a completly logical decision to make, and I can't fathom why. Do you really think a guild has the option to "make the DPS perform better"? Or, if they are lacking a raid CD, dropping a healer for a person with a raid CD is going to fix... Well, anything?

But just saying it as it is: If the guild is struggling to get through something, the obvious response is "how can we fix this". If fixing it is between the arbitrary option of "making everyone play better so it isn't an issue", or switching a DPS that brings no utility for a DPS who does, guess what the obvious answer is? And that's not the GM, RL, whomever has the authority's fault - the fault lies entirely on class balance, and how blatantly powerfull raid CD's are.

Wouldn't that decision render killing the boss pointless? You're choosing not to improve the group at all and going for the easy decision. Ends with a worse off raid group doesn't it?

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Posts like this with no context prove absolutely nothing other than your sheer ignorance of the topic.

The 'utility' Hunters bring is mirrored and often improved by basically anyone else. If you can do what Hunters do while having additional utility and superior DPS, what's the point of the Hunter?

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Again, these completely ignorant posts provide absolutely nothing. Hunters are absolutely not topping meters unless half the other DPS classes in your raid are horrendous. Don't speak on a subject you clearly don't know about. That's a serious contributing factor as to why Hunters will continue remaining one of the most bland, mediocre, and lacking classes in the game.

Because not all classes do the same things.

[mistahwilshire]

provinggrounds is 480 - scaling down to 440 (40ilvls) means you cant really do that many waves cause you don't have the dps. I really think endless waves 30 is imposible at that ilvl. Tho at the right ilvl (480) its not that hard.

Proving grounds scales you to 463. The point that terokkar was making was that if you have a lot of sockets then it becomes significantly easier because raw agility scales so much better for Hunters than any secondary stat.

Endless 30 is definitely not impossible at 463. Hunter's have gone far above and beyond wave 30.

[Kapaya]

Draco i dont see why you keep posting on those forums, all i read every time is a) fix my dps b) class X is fine l2p c) I top meters in MY guild OUR class is fine. Go to a LFR and play with the people that this game is made and cattered for.

Man, you're gonna make me fall for you

[Dracodraco]

Dracodraco and similar guys with stereotypes are the reason you should bring class, not the player.

He compares mdd and rdd.
He compares hunter and elem - meanwhile elem is padding spec right now(press chain lightning at right times for ranking).

You are silly. By your logic the only thing I can compare hunters to are other hunters. If you have no clue how progress guilds work, that's fine, but that means you don't really have alot to say about the topic.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 99.99% of all guilds would progress much faster if they simply brought the most able players and removed the distraction of balance. That said, if I could trade 10k for AG I wouldn't think twice.

The second part of your post basicly agrees with what I'm trying to argue - if you have the choise between a elemental shaman and a hunter that has the same performance, you'll pick the elemental shaman because their dps is about the same, but they have so many more potent cooldowns (and even with a little less dps, they bring stormlash that won't show up as their personal DPS).
Of course, if your hunter is performing better than the remainder of the raid, taking him over a worse performer will probably be better unless you desperately need the CD. But that isn't really often the case.

There are two situations as I see it.

Cutting Edge guilds and players - Here hunters and mages are not fine, but the people at this level of progression understand that you must make sacrifices to be the best, and will change class or use their alts for progression instead. If you don't have that mindset, then you are not a top guild.

Every other guild/player - Hunters and Mages are absolutely fine here, nowhere in my 7 years of WoW experience have I EVER seen someone be turned away from a group based on just the class they play, it simply does not happen anywhere outside of the top guilds.

The state of a class is irrelevant unless you are pushing for a top rank, Hunters and Mages are not so bad that you can't kill a boss with them. And if you are pushing for a top rank, you will suck it up and make sacrifices for the greater good. There are always going to be underdogs every tier, always.

But it seems this thread is turning away from logical reasoning and more into the usual elitist cesspool of "any guild below mine is shitty and has irrelevant opinions" comments popping up.

You'll notice I'm on my disc priest and not my hunter :P.
In any case - your experience is anecdotal. Your experience does not in any way or form resemble what is "fair" or "right" - as I have said many times, and will keep repeating untill it gets through peoples heads, when hunters and mages bring same or less DPS than other classes that also brings utility in forms of CD's, it doesn't matter if you can still "kill the boss" even with a suboptimal setup - do you really want to be carried? I want to actually pull my own weight, thank-you very much.

Also, you were the one who lashed out at me with my "zero heroic bosses" because you couldn't take ten seconds to look into my character, when I commented on the fact that your guild's hunters are performing better than the other classes, and THAT is why they seem to be doing so well. If you can't deal with me returning fire, you probably shouldn't start yourself.

But just to make 100% sure:
Fact: Hunters and Mages are in the bottom half of DPS.
Fact: Hunters and Mages bring no raid CD's, DPS or defensive.
Fact: If your raidleader isn't an idiot and has a Warlock/boomkin/ele shaman/shadow priest performing on the same level as a mage/hunter in the guild, (s)he will sit the hunter/mage in favor of progress. If the mage/hunter is a better player than the alternatives, at this point, it is indeed possible for them to somewhat carry their weight. But in a guild filled with "equally skilled" players, that is not true.

You guys really argue with "It is okay for Hunter to be worse in dps and utility (with same ilvl and skill), because in slower progressing guilds it doesn't matter"? Sorry, but that's really stupid, and that's absolutly not the way anyone should want WoW to be balanced.

And it's even wrong that it doesn't matter, for us (world ~60) for example pushing Garrosh p3 tp p4 with only one empowered whirling made the fight significantly easier and probably saved us days of progression, but it wouldn't have happened with less dps. There will be such points for many bosses for many guilds on all levels of progression, where more dps and more raid cds will help to down a boss with less time. I've been in several raiding from casual to less casual in the past, and in everyone of them dps and raid cds did acutally matter pretty much.

I like you.

So I had a similar situation happen to me in TOT. I was raiding heroics and being sat. I got upset, and then took a step back and looked at what was going on. First My damage was not on par with some top few DPS. I wasnt behind by much but I was 3-5 consistently. I then looked at my gear compared to everyone elses and noticed I was a good 5-12 ilvl behind most of the raid team. I wasn't doing what I needed to do in order to show up with with the best possible character I could. After that I took time the next few weeks to complete my legendary cloak, get my meta gem, and double upgrade every slot and save up valor for when I got the upgrades. And After that I wasn't sat so much. So heres the deal, you need to look and make sure you are doing everything you can to bring the best toon. The 10 man has fallen apart and now i am raiding 25m and I don't sit out nearly as much as I use to because of the mindset of bringing the best character I can.

Irrellevant and anecdotal. Missing the legendary cloak and meta gem isn't an issue anyone has at this point, sorry to say. The fact that you slacked in TOT has nothing to do with class balance in this tier.

Just because you don't have raid cooldowns doesn't mean you bring no utility. Hunters can be a very strong class in a raid.

Ill bite. Which utility does hunters bring that isn't brought in a stronger or better form by any other class, or is completly irrellevant at this point (MD used to be something, but with tanks 500% threat generation, it's not as if it matters).

Wouldn't that decision render killing the boss pointless? You're choosing not to improve the group at all and going for the easy decision. Ends with a worse off raid group doesn't it?

Are you serious? I mean, *really*?
Okay, riddle me this -
you are sitting on Thok heroic. You are wiping at about 2-3%, with everyone being alive.
But here's the thing! You know that if you sit a mage, you can get in a fury that will do the same DPS as the mage, *but*, he will also bring another skull banner, and his rallying cry+demo banner that will let you eat 1-2 stacks more of the AOE phases.
*what do you do*. Do you tell your raid to keep banging their heads against the boss, hoping that you get an attempt where you pull another 40M damage out of your ass from somewhere - or do you sit the mage in favor of the fury warrior that can help you extend the encounter slightly and brings a raid-DPS cooldown?
If you didn't chose to sit the mage, then your guild obviously doesn't play for progress.

But to answer your question, no. Telling your raid "well, we COULD take in another 3-4 cooldowns to try and get the encounter down a bit quicker, but honestly, I'd rather that we keep banging our heads against it till it dies without them, as it'll make us better as a raid" is just... Asinine, really.
Again, "Work with what you have - not what you wish you had". Your raid group isn't going to magically improve to kill a boss just because you keep throwing them at it.